Which would be historically more accurate for Beethoven Leonore #3 Overture - alto or tenor?
I'm guessing from what I've previously read here that the answer is tenor, but the I think the part lies better on an alto.
alto or tenor: Leonore #3
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ttf_SilverBone
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ttf_vegasbound
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Is there a doubling fee? then alto!! 
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ttf_JohnL
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: vegasbound on Apr 26, 2017, 03:06AMIs there a doubling fee? then alto!! What could be more historically accurate than a trombonist trying to milk a gig for more money?
What could be more historically accurate than a trombonist trying to milk a gig for more money?-
ttf_BGuttman
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
I wonder if Beethoven even knew any alto players according to what I read from Howard Weiner. Still, his 3 symphonies that use trombones work well with an alto on top. If you are comfortable with an alto and it fits well, play it. For blending I'd use a small bore tenor if you play a tenor; no orchestral "cannon".
If you don't own an alto, don't buy one just to play this gig. There aren't even enough notes to justify the purchase
If you don't own an alto, don't buy one just to play this gig. There aren't even enough notes to justify the purchase
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ttf_SilverBone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: vegasbound on Apr 26, 2017, 03:06AMIs there a doubling fee? then alto!!
Twice my usual fee: 2 times 0 = 0!
Twice my usual fee: 2 times 0 = 0!
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ttf_SilverBone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 26, 2017, 07:57AM
If you don't own an alto, don't buy one just to play this gig. There aren't even enough notes to justify the purchase
I do own an alto, can play it if reasonably well if the part isn't hard, and look for opportunities to use it.
There actually are a surprising number of notes for trombone in Leonore. Just not very interesting notes.
If you don't own an alto, don't buy one just to play this gig. There aren't even enough notes to justify the purchase
I do own an alto, can play it if reasonably well if the part isn't hard, and look for opportunities to use it.
There actually are a surprising number of notes for trombone in Leonore. Just not very interesting notes.
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ttf_Rockymountaintrombone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
If you have and can play an alto reasonably well, I think all of the Beethoven orchestral 1st trombone parts (except Fidelio, which is scored for a tenor and a bass trombone) sound best on alto. Obviously, this advice doesn't extend to players who haven't played the instrument for long enough to be comfortable on it - then a small bore tenor is a reasonable substitute.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
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ttf_Bcschipper
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Let me quote from an older post by Ralph Sauer (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,2399.0.html):
"A big tenor sounds dull unless it is played too loudly for these classical compositions. It is easier to get a fortissimo quality (when using the alto) at the lower dynamic levels that are appropriate in this music. Also, it makes a nice "bridge" between the trombones and the rotary trumpet sound."
I don't have experience playing Beethoven's Leonore, but when we played Brahms recently, we used a Kruspe alto, Shires tenor and Edwards Bass in our section and the brass chords in the lower dynamic levels simply sounded beautiful.
"A big tenor sounds dull unless it is played too loudly for these classical compositions. It is easier to get a fortissimo quality (when using the alto) at the lower dynamic levels that are appropriate in this music. Also, it makes a nice "bridge" between the trombones and the rotary trumpet sound."
I don't have experience playing Beethoven's Leonore, but when we played Brahms recently, we used a Kruspe alto, Shires tenor and Edwards Bass in our section and the brass chords in the lower dynamic levels simply sounded beautiful.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Are you going to play on historical instruments? No? Then it's a moot point. Both the 2nd and bass trombone will be using instruments that are completely historically inaccurate, so it couldn't matter less what horn you use. Use what sounds best given the context. A modern alto or a very small tenor with a small mouthpiece are going to work better than a large bore tenor for sure.
Your modern alto is still much larger than a Viennese classical tenor...
Now if you wanted to know just for the sake of knowledge of the history, well the answer is : it's still being debated. In fact, there was a rather heated discussion about it on this forum about a year ago.
Your modern alto is still much larger than a Viennese classical tenor...
Now if you wanted to know just for the sake of knowledge of the history, well the answer is : it's still being debated. In fact, there was a rather heated discussion about it on this forum about a year ago.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
According to Jay Friedman:
"Of course the classical and early romantic period composers generally wrote for alto, tenor and bass trombones. The bass being a trombone in F with no additional valves. This is not the same instrument in use today, as the modern bass trombone is a large bore tenor with valves which can change the key of the instrument to various lower pitches, such as F, D, Gb. Early composers were very aware of the instruments they wanted, and a good example of this is Beethoven's specific request for only a tenor and bass trombone in the opera "Fidelio." The alto trombone was notated in alto clef, the tenor in tenor clef and the bass in bass clef. It would seem therefore that it would be simple to ascertain the intent of the composer as to which trombone was required by the clef the instrument was written in. That's where things get very hazy, as each school of composition had it's own traditions and habits. There are many examples in the later part of the 19th century where a trombone part was written in alto clef with no expectation that the part would be played on alto trombone. The old way of writing for alto, tenor and bass trombones started to diverge approximately sometime after Beethoven's death in 1827. "
Also
"Just for your added information, I thought I would let my readers know what instruments I use for the repertoire I am required to play in the orchestra. I use alto trombone, a 1966 Latzsch, model Kuhn on works by Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, even the C major Symphony, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and certain Dvorak works."
So use an alto. For Beethoven, alto clef means alto trombone.
"Of course the classical and early romantic period composers generally wrote for alto, tenor and bass trombones. The bass being a trombone in F with no additional valves. This is not the same instrument in use today, as the modern bass trombone is a large bore tenor with valves which can change the key of the instrument to various lower pitches, such as F, D, Gb. Early composers were very aware of the instruments they wanted, and a good example of this is Beethoven's specific request for only a tenor and bass trombone in the opera "Fidelio." The alto trombone was notated in alto clef, the tenor in tenor clef and the bass in bass clef. It would seem therefore that it would be simple to ascertain the intent of the composer as to which trombone was required by the clef the instrument was written in. That's where things get very hazy, as each school of composition had it's own traditions and habits. There are many examples in the later part of the 19th century where a trombone part was written in alto clef with no expectation that the part would be played on alto trombone. The old way of writing for alto, tenor and bass trombones started to diverge approximately sometime after Beethoven's death in 1827. "
Also
"Just for your added information, I thought I would let my readers know what instruments I use for the repertoire I am required to play in the orchestra. I use alto trombone, a 1966 Latzsch, model Kuhn on works by Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, even the C major Symphony, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and certain Dvorak works."
So use an alto. For Beethoven, alto clef means alto trombone.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 28, 2017, 10:39AMSo use an alto. For Beethoven, alto clef means alto trombone.
Really not that simple. Conventions in writing/engraving and conventions in playing are not the same thing. Alto clef has never, ever meant alto trombone. The ATB clef combination and part designation that was standard in Germanic music in the late 18th and 19th century is simply due to the orchestral trombone section evolving mostly from the old church tradition of doubling the ATB voices with trombones. The doubling stopped and the voices disappeared, but the clefs remained. In other words, clefs designate a function, not a type of instrument.
With all due respect to Jay Friedman, there has been substantial and serious research on the subject that shows it is a far more complex question than he suggests.
I'm not saying don't use an alto, in fact that is what I would use. But if you're going to do it, don't claim it is for historical reasons, because a) the top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the question and b) your modern alto has nothing at all to do with a classical instrument anyway.
Really not that simple. Conventions in writing/engraving and conventions in playing are not the same thing. Alto clef has never, ever meant alto trombone. The ATB clef combination and part designation that was standard in Germanic music in the late 18th and 19th century is simply due to the orchestral trombone section evolving mostly from the old church tradition of doubling the ATB voices with trombones. The doubling stopped and the voices disappeared, but the clefs remained. In other words, clefs designate a function, not a type of instrument.
With all due respect to Jay Friedman, there has been substantial and serious research on the subject that shows it is a far more complex question than he suggests.
I'm not saying don't use an alto, in fact that is what I would use. But if you're going to do it, don't claim it is for historical reasons, because a) the top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the question and b) your modern alto has nothing at all to do with a classical instrument anyway.
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ttf_JohnL
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 28, 2017, 03:51PMthe top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the questionYes, they are. They will likely continue to do so indefinitely, since the appearance of indisputable evidence for one side or the other is highly unlikely.
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ttf_Bcschipper
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 28, 2017, 03:51PM...
I'm not saying don't use an alto, in fact that is what I would use. But if you're going to do it, don't claim it is for historical reasons, because a) the top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the question and b) your modern alto has nothing at all to do with a classical instrument anyway.
b) holds not just for alto trombones but also for tenor trombones, bass trombones, today's classical trombones, today's baroque trombones (just think about today's standardization of brass alloys), mouthpieces, slide lubricants, trombone training, tuning pitches, physical stature of players, buildings in which music is played, cultural background of players and listeners including their music training and day-to-day exposure to noises ...
In some sense, historical performances seem elusive and in its essence highly romantic of the past. So why not focusing on making nice music in the age of penicillin, cars, and the trombone forum. An alto trombone has definitely a place in helping with making nice music (not that I assumed somebody disputed it here). And of course, we hope to eventually get to the know the outcome of a) even though it may not be that relevant to how we make music today.
I'm not saying don't use an alto, in fact that is what I would use. But if you're going to do it, don't claim it is for historical reasons, because a) the top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the question and b) your modern alto has nothing at all to do with a classical instrument anyway.
b) holds not just for alto trombones but also for tenor trombones, bass trombones, today's classical trombones, today's baroque trombones (just think about today's standardization of brass alloys), mouthpieces, slide lubricants, trombone training, tuning pitches, physical stature of players, buildings in which music is played, cultural background of players and listeners including their music training and day-to-day exposure to noises ...
In some sense, historical performances seem elusive and in its essence highly romantic of the past. So why not focusing on making nice music in the age of penicillin, cars, and the trombone forum. An alto trombone has definitely a place in helping with making nice music (not that I assumed somebody disputed it here). And of course, we hope to eventually get to the know the outcome of a) even though it may not be that relevant to how we make music today.
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ttf_SilverBone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
I really appreciate all the replies. I plan to play it on alto unless I discover I suck.
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ttf_FlamingRain
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
And then you also have to factor in the fact that some composers (especially those Russian composers) liked to write the first TWO trombone parts in alto clef- even though for the time period it is expected to be played on a large tenor and technically speaking the range isn't even that high. (I'm looking at you, Shostakovich). Sometimes this is an editing error (i.e.: the edition of Shostakovich 1 with the bass bone part written entirely in alto clef) but many times the composers just wrote it in the score that way. It's complicated and you have to look at the history and time period of the composer.
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ttf_NBee
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
I love this topic very much! When is alto appropriate? I would say whenever the trumpets pull out the rotaries you should be on alto and your 2nd and bass player should downsize as well. That's if you want to go full modern approach to getting that set up
Now if you want to be as historically accurate as possible...
Pull out some baroque trombones (sackbuts), get the strings to use baroque bows, and have some natural horns. THEN you have a fully historically accurate section...
Now if you want to be as historically accurate as possible...
Pull out some baroque trombones (sackbuts), get the strings to use baroque bows, and have some natural horns. THEN you have a fully historically accurate section...
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ttf_anonymous
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 28, 2017, 03:51PMReally not that simple. Conventions in writing/engraving and conventions in playing are not the same thing. Alto clef has never, ever meant alto trombone. The ATB clef combination and part designation that was standard in Germanic music in the late 18th and 19th century is simply due to the orchestral trombone section evolving mostly from the old church tradition of doubling the ATB voices with trombones. The doubling stopped and the voices disappeared, but the clefs remained. In other words, clefs designate a function, not a type of instrument.
With all due respect to Jay Friedman, there has been substantial and serious research on the subject that shows it is a far more complex question than he suggests.
I'm not saying don't use an alto, in fact that is what I would use. But if you're going to do it, don't claim it is for historical reasons, because a) the top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the question and b) your modern alto has nothing at all to do with a classical instrument anyway.
Read the quote again. I don't think Jay said alto clef means alto trombone. He said it does FOR BEETHOVEN. And that's solid advice. Whether the players at the time owned Bb or Eb instruments is less important than the fact that the parts Beethoven wrote are very much in the character of alto trombone, and most certainly weren't played on the kind of gigantic .547 bore instruments we have now. This one's a no brainer - alto trombone for Beethoven.
With all due respect to Jay Friedman, there has been substantial and serious research on the subject that shows it is a far more complex question than he suggests.
I'm not saying don't use an alto, in fact that is what I would use. But if you're going to do it, don't claim it is for historical reasons, because a) the top trombone scholars in the world are still debating the question and b) your modern alto has nothing at all to do with a classical instrument anyway.
Read the quote again. I don't think Jay said alto clef means alto trombone. He said it does FOR BEETHOVEN. And that's solid advice. Whether the players at the time owned Bb or Eb instruments is less important than the fact that the parts Beethoven wrote are very much in the character of alto trombone, and most certainly weren't played on the kind of gigantic .547 bore instruments we have now. This one's a no brainer - alto trombone for Beethoven.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Blowero on Apr 29, 2017, 11:39AMRead the quote again. I don't think Jay said alto clef means alto trombone. He said it does FOR BEETHOVEN. And that's solid advice. Whether the players at the time owned Bb or Eb instruments is less important than the fact that the parts Beethoven wrote are very much in the character of alto trombone, and most certainly weren't played on the kind of gigantic .547 bore instruments we have now. This one's a no brainer - alto trombone for Beethoven.
I agree, and I did point out that I use an alto myself for that (both on modern and period instrument, as a matter of fact). My point was that Jay Friedman saying Beethoven wrote for alto doesn't make it true. If we want to make a case for historical accuracy, we need better than that.
I agree, and I did point out that I use an alto myself for that (both on modern and period instrument, as a matter of fact). My point was that Jay Friedman saying Beethoven wrote for alto doesn't make it true. If we want to make a case for historical accuracy, we need better than that.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
His case is built around the fact that when Beethoven actually wanted tenor on top, he was very specific about requesting it in the original manuscript. I'm pretty sure the original handwritten scores specify alto trombone.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 29, 2017, 01:41PMHis case is built around the fact that when Beethoven actually wanted tenor on top, he was very specific about requesting it in the original manuscript.
I'd be curious to see the sources on that.
I'd be curious to see the sources on that.
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ttf_Dombat
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: NBee on Apr 29, 2017, 10:43AMI love this topic very much! When is alto appropriate? I would say whenever the trumpets pull out the rotaries you should be on alto and your 2nd and bass player should downsize as well. That's if you want to go full modern approach to getting that set up
Oops. I should be on alto 100% of the time.
Oops. I should be on alto 100% of the time.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 29, 2017, 02:19PMI'd be curious to see the sources on that.
I am not going to find Jay Friedman's sources for him, but most of the original scripts should be on IMSLP. You could start there.
I am not going to find Jay Friedman's sources for him, but most of the original scripts should be on IMSLP. You could start there.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 29, 2017, 03:27PMI am not going to find Jay Friedman's sources for him, but most of the original scripts should be on IMSLP. You could start there.
Well you're the one who quoted him
Well you're the one who quoted him
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ttf_baroquetrombone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Among other things in this thread:
Quote from: NBee on Apr 29, 2017, 10:43AMNow if you want to be as historically accurate as possible...
Pull out some baroque trombones (sackbuts), get the strings to use baroque bows [...] THEN you have a fully historically accurate section...
What? For Beethoven? Um, no.
[this post typed from backstage at an all Beethoven period instrument concert]
Quote from: NBee on Apr 29, 2017, 10:43AMNow if you want to be as historically accurate as possible...
Pull out some baroque trombones (sackbuts), get the strings to use baroque bows [...] THEN you have a fully historically accurate section...
What? For Beethoven? Um, no.
[this post typed from backstage at an all Beethoven period instrument concert]
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ttf_Ellrod
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
LVB 1770 - 1827, arguably transitional between classical and romantic periods
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: baroquetrombone on Apr 29, 2017, 05:26PM
What? For Beethoven? Um, no.
[this post typed from backstage at an all Beethoven period instrument concert]
Well, to be fair, our Hainlein sackbuts are probably closer to Viennese classical trombones than the Schmiedt instruments...
But yeah, no.
What? For Beethoven? Um, no.
[this post typed from backstage at an all Beethoven period instrument concert]
Well, to be fair, our Hainlein sackbuts are probably closer to Viennese classical trombones than the Schmiedt instruments...
But yeah, no.
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ttf_BGuttman
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
I think in Beethoven's time the orchestral strings were still gut. Much friendlier to a small bore trombone. Also, the full Boehm keywork system was not yet in use, so flutes, clarinets, oboes, and bassoons used a lot of finger holes.
Again, historical accuracy is probably not at issue here. Blend and sound are.
Again, historical accuracy is probably not at issue here. Blend and sound are.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 29, 2017, 04:14PMWell you're the one who quoted him
If you want the source for the quote it's just up on his blog.
If you want his source, he's more credible than random forum members. It's Jay Friedman.
If you want the source for the quote it's just up on his blog.
If you want his source, he's more credible than random forum members. It's Jay Friedman.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 29, 2017, 08:16PMIf you want his source, he's more credible than random forum members. It's Jay Friedman.
I don't buy into that logic. Having a brilliant and long career as a world-class performer has no correlation with being a reliable source on historical information. A "random forum member" could hold a tremendous amount of knowledge (as a matter of fact, several of the top scholars on trombone history are members of this forum). Name recognition doesn't have anything to do with it.
I do believe that Jay Friedman is mostly right in your quote as far as what instruments were used, but I wouldn't state it as the truth, because I can't prove it, and neither can you or anyone else, at least for now.
I don't buy into that logic. Having a brilliant and long career as a world-class performer has no correlation with being a reliable source on historical information. A "random forum member" could hold a tremendous amount of knowledge (as a matter of fact, several of the top scholars on trombone history are members of this forum). Name recognition doesn't have anything to do with it.
I do believe that Jay Friedman is mostly right in your quote as far as what instruments were used, but I wouldn't state it as the truth, because I can't prove it, and neither can you or anyone else, at least for now.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Eh, there is no chanse of getting it hostoricly correct. The trombone in Beethovens time was still small bore, no lead pipe, no conically gooseneck, actually more like sackbuts then modern trombones in many ways except more of a flair on the bell.
Use the horn that you can make the music best musically.
Use the horn that you can make the music best musically.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 30, 2017, 05:15AMUse the horn that you can make the music best musically.
Amen
Amen
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ttf_Blowero
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Apr 29, 2017, 01:36PMI agree, and I did point out that I use an alto myself for that (both on modern and period instrument, as a matter of fact). My point was that Jay Friedman saying Beethoven wrote for alto doesn't make it true. If we want to make a case for historical accuracy, we need better than that.
What is your evidence that the alto trombone parts written by Beethoven were not for alto trombone? If you're going to call out Jay Friedman, I hope you have something pretty compelling to show us.
What is your evidence that the alto trombone parts written by Beethoven were not for alto trombone? If you're going to call out Jay Friedman, I hope you have something pretty compelling to show us.
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ttf_BGuttman
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Blowero on Apr 30, 2017, 11:47AMWhat is your evidence that the alto trombone parts written by Beethoven were not for alto trombone? If you're going to call out Jay Friedman, I hope you have something pretty compelling to show us.
Howard Weiner has posted here that apparently the alto, tenor, and bass trombone parts were often played on Bb trombones of different bores.
Today's alto trombone bears only a passing semblance to the alto trombone of the period where they were actively used. So the choice to use one is not based on historical accuracy.
I find there are times when an alto seems to fit the ensemble better and that's the main reason I would use one.
Howard Weiner has posted here that apparently the alto, tenor, and bass trombone parts were often played on Bb trombones of different bores.
Today's alto trombone bears only a passing semblance to the alto trombone of the period where they were actively used. So the choice to use one is not based on historical accuracy.
I find there are times when an alto seems to fit the ensemble better and that's the main reason I would use one.
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ttf_Bcschipper
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: baroquetrombone on Apr 29, 2017, 05:26PM
[this post typed from backstage at an all Beethoven period instrument concert]
Wow, you really mean trombone manufactured at Beethoven's time? What slide lubricant do you use? Do you use the one used in Beethoven's time?
[this post typed from backstage at an all Beethoven period instrument concert]
Wow, you really mean trombone manufactured at Beethoven's time? What slide lubricant do you use? Do you use the one used in Beethoven's time?
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ttf_Posaunus
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Blowero on Apr 30, 2017, 11:47AMWhat is your evidence that the alto trombone parts written by Beethoven were not for alto trombone? If you're going to call out Jay Friedman, I hope you have something pretty compelling to show us.
Brad (Blowero),
Actually there was an almost-interminably-long thread on this topic about a year ago, in which Howard Weiner, a noted authority on the history of the trombone, made a pretty good case for when alto trombones were - and were not - used in the 19th century. He believed (based on pretty convincing historical evidence) that Beethoven did not call for what we now call an alto trombone. Not everyone (including Will Kimball) accepts his arguments, but I, for one, found it "pretty compelling." Unfortunately, to get the gist, you may have to suffer through reading much of that thread!
Here are a few excerpts from that thread:
Re: Use of Trombones in Orchestra
« Reply #40 on: Apr 22, 2016, 08:21AM »
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 22, 2016, 08:21AMHoward's monograph on the subject is available online here.
Pages 59-65 deal with "The Viennese "alto" trombone", explicitly referencing those high Fs among other things. The contention is that all would have been played on a tenor-length instrument.
Small bores, small mouthpieces, professional players... No reason that F couldn't have been comfortable enough.
Re: Use of Trombones in Orchestra
« Reply #41 on: Apr 22, 2016, 08:35AM »
Quote from: HowardW on Apr 22, 2016, 08:35AMNo, as far as I've been able to determine, the alto trombone in E-flat wasn't introduced to Vienna until 1883.
During most of the 18th century, Viennese composers tended to call for only two trombones in the alto and tenor ranges, respectively, with both parts being played on tenor instruments. When a third trombone was called for in the bass range, it too was played on a tenor.-- The only difference would have been in the size of the mouthpieces.
When the Vienna court opera orchestra adopted valve trombones around the mid 1830s, the standard trombone section was soon made up of two tenor valve trombones in B-flat and one bass valve trombone in F. Until 1883, when the slide trombone was reintroduced.
The alto trombone in F is a product of the 20th century -- but that's another story.
Howard
All that being said, it's hard to disagree that - with a modern orchestra in a modern concert hall - a modern alto trombone (or perhaps a small-bore tenor) might actually be preferable for the 1st trombone part on many early 19th century works. As was said earlier in this thread: "Use the horn that you can make the music best musically." Jay Friedman may not be totally correct on his history, but he knows how to make music!
<Edit: Fixed quote>
Brad (Blowero),
Actually there was an almost-interminably-long thread on this topic about a year ago, in which Howard Weiner, a noted authority on the history of the trombone, made a pretty good case for when alto trombones were - and were not - used in the 19th century. He believed (based on pretty convincing historical evidence) that Beethoven did not call for what we now call an alto trombone. Not everyone (including Will Kimball) accepts his arguments, but I, for one, found it "pretty compelling." Unfortunately, to get the gist, you may have to suffer through reading much of that thread!
Here are a few excerpts from that thread:
Re: Use of Trombones in Orchestra
« Reply #40 on: Apr 22, 2016, 08:21AM »
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 22, 2016, 08:21AMHoward's monograph on the subject is available online here.
Pages 59-65 deal with "The Viennese "alto" trombone", explicitly referencing those high Fs among other things. The contention is that all would have been played on a tenor-length instrument.
Small bores, small mouthpieces, professional players... No reason that F couldn't have been comfortable enough.
Re: Use of Trombones in Orchestra
« Reply #41 on: Apr 22, 2016, 08:35AM »
Quote from: HowardW on Apr 22, 2016, 08:35AMNo, as far as I've been able to determine, the alto trombone in E-flat wasn't introduced to Vienna until 1883.
During most of the 18th century, Viennese composers tended to call for only two trombones in the alto and tenor ranges, respectively, with both parts being played on tenor instruments. When a third trombone was called for in the bass range, it too was played on a tenor.-- The only difference would have been in the size of the mouthpieces.
When the Vienna court opera orchestra adopted valve trombones around the mid 1830s, the standard trombone section was soon made up of two tenor valve trombones in B-flat and one bass valve trombone in F. Until 1883, when the slide trombone was reintroduced.
The alto trombone in F is a product of the 20th century -- but that's another story.
Howard
All that being said, it's hard to disagree that - with a modern orchestra in a modern concert hall - a modern alto trombone (or perhaps a small-bore tenor) might actually be preferable for the 1st trombone part on many early 19th century works. As was said earlier in this thread: "Use the horn that you can make the music best musically." Jay Friedman may not be totally correct on his history, but he knows how to make music!
<Edit: Fixed quote>
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ttf_Blowero
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 30, 2017, 12:04PMHoward Weiner has posted here that apparently the alto, tenor, and bass trombone parts were often played on Bb trombones of different bores.
That's a far cry from saying that Beethoven was writing his alto parts with a tenor trombone in mind. I'm familiar with Howard's paper. A lot of the "evidence" seems to hinge on one source:
"Andreas Nemetz,
Posaun-Schule
(Vienna, 1827). In his trombone method,
Nemetz wrote, "The illustrated bass, tenor, and alto trombone is pitched in
Bb," allowing that "the mouthpiece must be different for each of the three
types of trombone"" (Figure 15). From the position numbers printed above
and below the notes in Nemetz' scales and etudes, it is obvious that he indeed
considered all three sorts of trombone to be in Bb."
The problems here are, one, that this was written 22 years after Leonore #3. Two, it's contradicted by the Albrechtsberger source, which specifically refers to an alto in Eb.
The rest of the "evidence" is strictly conjecture, based mostly on the pitch range of the music being written. One of Howard's contentions is that since some composers wrote "E" for the alto trombone, that they must have been writing for a Bb instrument, since E was usually sharp on Eb altos. I'm not entirely convinced that composers would have that much knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of alto trombone manufacturing.
Eb alto trombones were indeed being made in Germany in Beethoven's time. To suggest that Beethoven didn't know any alto trombone players, as you did earlier, Bruce, and to therefore conclude that he was writing with tenor trombone in mind, is quite a stretch, in my opinion. It's like saying Jay Friedman never saw a Bach trombone because he lives in Chicago and Bachs are made in Indiana.
Did the alto fall out of favor at some point in the 19th century? Yes, I think it did. Does that prove that Beethoven wasn't writing with alto trombone in mind? No, I don't think it proves that.
It's certainly interesting stuff, but I would need a lot more than "Howard Weiner said it in a thread" before I'm convinced that a Bb tenor trombone is the historically informed choice on which to perform Beethoven alto trombone parts.
QuoteToday's alto trombone bears only a passing semblance to the alto trombone of the period where they were actively used. So the choice to use one is not based on historical accuracy.
We're not necessarily trying to recreate a completely historically accurate performance; we're usually just trying to do what makes musical sense, and a small bore alto makes more musical sense for Beethoven than a giant .547 bore tenor.
That's a far cry from saying that Beethoven was writing his alto parts with a tenor trombone in mind. I'm familiar with Howard's paper. A lot of the "evidence" seems to hinge on one source:
"Andreas Nemetz,
Posaun-Schule
(Vienna, 1827). In his trombone method,
Nemetz wrote, "The illustrated bass, tenor, and alto trombone is pitched in
Bb," allowing that "the mouthpiece must be different for each of the three
types of trombone"" (Figure 15). From the position numbers printed above
and below the notes in Nemetz' scales and etudes, it is obvious that he indeed
considered all three sorts of trombone to be in Bb."
The problems here are, one, that this was written 22 years after Leonore #3. Two, it's contradicted by the Albrechtsberger source, which specifically refers to an alto in Eb.
The rest of the "evidence" is strictly conjecture, based mostly on the pitch range of the music being written. One of Howard's contentions is that since some composers wrote "E" for the alto trombone, that they must have been writing for a Bb instrument, since E was usually sharp on Eb altos. I'm not entirely convinced that composers would have that much knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of alto trombone manufacturing.
Eb alto trombones were indeed being made in Germany in Beethoven's time. To suggest that Beethoven didn't know any alto trombone players, as you did earlier, Bruce, and to therefore conclude that he was writing with tenor trombone in mind, is quite a stretch, in my opinion. It's like saying Jay Friedman never saw a Bach trombone because he lives in Chicago and Bachs are made in Indiana.
Did the alto fall out of favor at some point in the 19th century? Yes, I think it did. Does that prove that Beethoven wasn't writing with alto trombone in mind? No, I don't think it proves that.
It's certainly interesting stuff, but I would need a lot more than "Howard Weiner said it in a thread" before I'm convinced that a Bb tenor trombone is the historically informed choice on which to perform Beethoven alto trombone parts.
QuoteToday's alto trombone bears only a passing semblance to the alto trombone of the period where they were actively used. So the choice to use one is not based on historical accuracy.
We're not necessarily trying to recreate a completely historically accurate performance; we're usually just trying to do what makes musical sense, and a small bore alto makes more musical sense for Beethoven than a giant .547 bore tenor.
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ttf_JohnL
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Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 30, 2017, 12:04PMToday's alto trombone bears only a passing semblance to the alto trombone of the period where they were actively used. So the choice to use one is not based on historical accuracy.Perhaps not so much historical accuracy as a lesser degree of historical inaccuracy.
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ttf_Blowero
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: JohnL on Apr 30, 2017, 02:53PMPerhaps not so much historical accuracy as a lesser degree of historical inaccuracy.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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All those quotes from Howard seemed to start with, "as far as I've been able to figure out"
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ttf_anonymous
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Quote from: Blowero on Apr 30, 2017, 02:07PM
It's certainly interesting stuff, but I would need a lot more than "Howard Weiner said it in a thread" before I'm convinced that a Bb tenor trombone is the historically informed choice on which to perform Beethoven alto trombone parts.We're not necessarily trying to recreate a completely historically accurate performance; we're usually just trying to do what makes musical sense, and a small bore alto makes more musical sense for Beethoven than a giant .547 bore tenor.
I agree. For me (as someone who plays both in period and modern orchestras and is writing a Masters paper on German trombones of the early nineteenth C (including Beethoven). I have examined quite a few instruments of all types , altos tenors, basses. There has been research about the brass players who performed in the Viennese theatres. We know most of their names, but emphatically do not know exactly what instruments they played upon. We can speculate on the available evidence until the cows come home.
I use a classical alto bell (Meinl) in historically informed orchestras in Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart (this is very standard practice in the H.I.P. circles and justifiable on many grounds). If I play these composers in a modern orchestra with colleagues on large bore tenor and bass I'll use my modern alto. I have read Howard's writings, of course, and also many other opinions. Well argued and researched, a lot of it, and not to be dismissed. But we weren't there and we must recreate these pieces time and time again. Not only can we base our choices on historical knowledge but with practicality and musical honesty. I've played as young gun my first professional Beethoven 5 on an 88H with 4G (in an orchestra of 35 players). I could do it, but it did inspire me to buy my first alto...
It's certainly interesting stuff, but I would need a lot more than "Howard Weiner said it in a thread" before I'm convinced that a Bb tenor trombone is the historically informed choice on which to perform Beethoven alto trombone parts.We're not necessarily trying to recreate a completely historically accurate performance; we're usually just trying to do what makes musical sense, and a small bore alto makes more musical sense for Beethoven than a giant .547 bore tenor.
I agree. For me (as someone who plays both in period and modern orchestras and is writing a Masters paper on German trombones of the early nineteenth C (including Beethoven). I have examined quite a few instruments of all types , altos tenors, basses. There has been research about the brass players who performed in the Viennese theatres. We know most of their names, but emphatically do not know exactly what instruments they played upon. We can speculate on the available evidence until the cows come home.
I use a classical alto bell (Meinl) in historically informed orchestras in Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart (this is very standard practice in the H.I.P. circles and justifiable on many grounds). If I play these composers in a modern orchestra with colleagues on large bore tenor and bass I'll use my modern alto. I have read Howard's writings, of course, and also many other opinions. Well argued and researched, a lot of it, and not to be dismissed. But we weren't there and we must recreate these pieces time and time again. Not only can we base our choices on historical knowledge but with practicality and musical honesty. I've played as young gun my first professional Beethoven 5 on an 88H with 4G (in an orchestra of 35 players). I could do it, but it did inspire me to buy my first alto...
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ttf_baroquetrombone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Bcschipper on Apr 30, 2017, 12:28PMWow, you really mean trombone manufactured at Beethoven's time? What slide lubricant do you use? Do you use the one used in Beethoven's time?
No, as I'm sure you know, but I'm going to go against my better judgement and respond anyway. Of course, if you know of trombones available from that time, I'd be more than happy to consider them for purchase. Until then though, I will continue performing on the closest thing we currently have, which is the aforementioned Schmied copies. Our section is Egger/Egger/Meinl - Eb/Bb/F, in this case. If something better comes along, we will likely use it, but there will ALWAYS be compromises and unknowns to some extent. We ALL realize that, but part of the fun (and frustration) is trying to get close.
I've considered experimenting with olive oil, which is the only slide lubricant from anywhere near that time that I've ever seen referenced, but I haven't gotten around to it and to be honest, I'd likely continue to use what works best on my slides anyway, which is Yamasnot and/or Trombotine.
I don't understand why all of these threads devolve into arguments about historical accuracy. I don't think any of the serious HIP/PI people have ever said that there is only one way to do things and every [Beethoven...or whatever] should be done that way. On the contrary, we tend to ask questions, since there are so few (or so many, depending on how you look at it) obvious answers. That is also why we tend not to take the word of one person, no matter how qualified, as an absolute. On the other hand, there are some things we DO have a pretty good idea about- that baroque bows and classical bows are different is one. Another is that *I* would not be using a copy of a 1632 instrument on Beethoven anymore than I would a 1900 Conn, nor would my colleagues. Hence my comment above.
The only reason I mentioned that I was responding from work was to attempt to lend some weight to my answer. Clearly it did the opposite.
In any case, I'm sure the OP is long gone now, but fwiw, like others, I'd suggest alto IF he's comfortable with it (preferably with downsized tenor/bass, but even if not). If he's not an alto player, I'd suggest sticking to tenor, because what sounds best is paramount.
Quote from: Tim Dowling on Apr 30, 2017, 10:03PMI agree. For me (as someone who plays both in period and modern orchestras and is writing a Masters paper on German trombones of the early nineteenth C (including Beethoven)...
Please PLEASE make that available when you're done...
No, as I'm sure you know, but I'm going to go against my better judgement and respond anyway. Of course, if you know of trombones available from that time, I'd be more than happy to consider them for purchase. Until then though, I will continue performing on the closest thing we currently have, which is the aforementioned Schmied copies. Our section is Egger/Egger/Meinl - Eb/Bb/F, in this case. If something better comes along, we will likely use it, but there will ALWAYS be compromises and unknowns to some extent. We ALL realize that, but part of the fun (and frustration) is trying to get close.
I've considered experimenting with olive oil, which is the only slide lubricant from anywhere near that time that I've ever seen referenced, but I haven't gotten around to it and to be honest, I'd likely continue to use what works best on my slides anyway, which is Yamasnot and/or Trombotine.
I don't understand why all of these threads devolve into arguments about historical accuracy. I don't think any of the serious HIP/PI people have ever said that there is only one way to do things and every [Beethoven...or whatever] should be done that way. On the contrary, we tend to ask questions, since there are so few (or so many, depending on how you look at it) obvious answers. That is also why we tend not to take the word of one person, no matter how qualified, as an absolute. On the other hand, there are some things we DO have a pretty good idea about- that baroque bows and classical bows are different is one. Another is that *I* would not be using a copy of a 1632 instrument on Beethoven anymore than I would a 1900 Conn, nor would my colleagues. Hence my comment above.
The only reason I mentioned that I was responding from work was to attempt to lend some weight to my answer. Clearly it did the opposite.
In any case, I'm sure the OP is long gone now, but fwiw, like others, I'd suggest alto IF he's comfortable with it (preferably with downsized tenor/bass, but even if not). If he's not an alto player, I'd suggest sticking to tenor, because what sounds best is paramount.
Quote from: Tim Dowling on Apr 30, 2017, 10:03PMI agree. For me (as someone who plays both in period and modern orchestras and is writing a Masters paper on German trombones of the early nineteenth C (including Beethoven)...
Please PLEASE make that available when you're done...
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Blowero on Apr 30, 2017, 11:47AMWhat is your evidence that the alto trombone parts written by Beethoven were not for alto trombone? If you're going to call out Jay Friedman, I hope you have something pretty compelling to show us.
As I said multiple times in this thread, a) my personal understanding of the sources and my belief are that they DID use altos (in fact, I've expressed elsewhere on this forum precisely the same reservations about Howard Weiner's paper as you just have) b) however I can't claim to have 100% indisputable evidence for that c) I haven't seen such indisputable evidence quoted by Mr. Friedman, or anybody else for that matter d) there is a compelling argument that can be made for the other side ,whether we agree with it or not.
I wasn't calling out Jay Friedman, I was simply pointing out that saying "expert A says X, hence X is true" is, has always been and will always be a fallacious reasoning and an unsatisfactory answer, and that an blog post with no bibliography has less value in supporting a claim than peer-reviewed scholarly articles.
History is incredibly messy and complex. Answers to questions about historical accuracy will be equally messy and complex.
As I said multiple times in this thread, a) my personal understanding of the sources and my belief are that they DID use altos (in fact, I've expressed elsewhere on this forum precisely the same reservations about Howard Weiner's paper as you just have) b) however I can't claim to have 100% indisputable evidence for that c) I haven't seen such indisputable evidence quoted by Mr. Friedman, or anybody else for that matter d) there is a compelling argument that can be made for the other side ,whether we agree with it or not.
I wasn't calling out Jay Friedman, I was simply pointing out that saying "expert A says X, hence X is true" is, has always been and will always be a fallacious reasoning and an unsatisfactory answer, and that an blog post with no bibliography has less value in supporting a claim than peer-reviewed scholarly articles.
History is incredibly messy and complex. Answers to questions about historical accuracy will be equally messy and complex.
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ttf_Blowero
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on May 01, 2017, 03:18AMAs I said multiple times in this thread, a) my personal understanding of the sources and my belief are that they DID use altos (in fact, I've expressed elsewhere on this forum precisely the same reservations about Howard Weiner's paper as you just have) b) however I can't claim to have 100% indisputable evidence for that c) I haven't seen such indisputable evidence quoted by Mr. Friedman, or anybody else for that matter d) there is a compelling argument that can be made for the other side ,whether we agree with it or not.
I wasn't calling out Jay Friedman, I was simply pointing out that saying "expert A says X, hence X is true" is, has always been and will always be a fallacious reasoning and an unsatisfactory answer, and that an blog post with no bibliography has less value in supporting a claim than peer-reviewed scholarly articles.
History is incredibly messy and complex. Answers to questions about historical accuracy will be equally messy and complex.
I'm glad you agree with me, but when you throw in phrases like, "it's a moot point", and "it couldn't matter less what horn you use", and "Jay Friedman saying Beethoven wrote for alto doesn't make it true. If we want to make a case for historical accuracy, we need better than that", you're confusing people who look to this site for playing advice. You guys had SilverBone so confused, he thought he was SUPPOSED to play tenor on the alto parts in order to be historically accurate.
I don't think Jay or anyone else is claiming to have ironclad proof of anything. However, his reasoning is pretty solid: If Beethoven CHOSE to write a part specifically for tenor trombone, then obviously he thought there was a difference between the alto and tenor instruments. We can't just dismiss what he wrote because he's "not a scholar".
Honestly, the players who do this for a living who have weighed in here seem to have a much more pragmatic approach to attempting to do justice to period music. They may not mean it like this, but when one skims through the comments of some of the weekend scholars here, one can't help but get the message, "We can never be 100% sure what they did back in those days, so play whatever horn you feel like." I emphatically disagree with that sentiment. As was written earlier, part of the fun is trying to get close.
I wasn't calling out Jay Friedman, I was simply pointing out that saying "expert A says X, hence X is true" is, has always been and will always be a fallacious reasoning and an unsatisfactory answer, and that an blog post with no bibliography has less value in supporting a claim than peer-reviewed scholarly articles.
History is incredibly messy and complex. Answers to questions about historical accuracy will be equally messy and complex.
I'm glad you agree with me, but when you throw in phrases like, "it's a moot point", and "it couldn't matter less what horn you use", and "Jay Friedman saying Beethoven wrote for alto doesn't make it true. If we want to make a case for historical accuracy, we need better than that", you're confusing people who look to this site for playing advice. You guys had SilverBone so confused, he thought he was SUPPOSED to play tenor on the alto parts in order to be historically accurate.
I don't think Jay or anyone else is claiming to have ironclad proof of anything. However, his reasoning is pretty solid: If Beethoven CHOSE to write a part specifically for tenor trombone, then obviously he thought there was a difference between the alto and tenor instruments. We can't just dismiss what he wrote because he's "not a scholar".
Honestly, the players who do this for a living who have weighed in here seem to have a much more pragmatic approach to attempting to do justice to period music. They may not mean it like this, but when one skims through the comments of some of the weekend scholars here, one can't help but get the message, "We can never be 100% sure what they did back in those days, so play whatever horn you feel like." I emphatically disagree with that sentiment. As was written earlier, part of the fun is trying to get close.
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ttf_SilverBone
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Quote from: baroquetrombone on Apr 30, 2017, 11:42PM
In any case, I'm sure the OP is long gone now, but fwiw, like others, I'd suggest alto IF he's comfortable with it (preferably with downsized tenor/bass, but even if not). If he's not an alto player, I'd suggest sticking to tenor, because what sounds best is paramount.
No, the OP is not long gone. But he didn't expect this discussion to mushroom into such an historical accuracy treatise (although he did make the mistake of asking the question that way).
He should have just asked if it was reasonable to use an alto on Leonore. And thank you for the responses that say yes. He'll be giving it a try tomorrow night at rehearssal.
The OP.
In any case, I'm sure the OP is long gone now, but fwiw, like others, I'd suggest alto IF he's comfortable with it (preferably with downsized tenor/bass, but even if not). If he's not an alto player, I'd suggest sticking to tenor, because what sounds best is paramount.
No, the OP is not long gone. But he didn't expect this discussion to mushroom into such an historical accuracy treatise (although he did make the mistake of asking the question that way).
He should have just asked if it was reasonable to use an alto on Leonore. And thank you for the responses that say yes. He'll be giving it a try tomorrow night at rehearssal.
The OP.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Good luck, mang'!
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ttf_schlitzbeer
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: SilverBone on May 01, 2017, 02:48PMNo, the OP is not long gone. But he didn't expect this discussion to mushroom into such an historical accuracy treatise (although he did make the mistake of asking the question that way).
He should have just asked if it was reasonable to use an alto on Leonore. And thank you for the responses that say yes. He'll be giving it a try tomorrow night at rehearssal.
The OP.
Surely, you'll give it your best shot, and make us all proud. Eat a good balanced meal beforehand, and don't eat the fish.
He should have just asked if it was reasonable to use an alto on Leonore. And thank you for the responses that say yes. He'll be giving it a try tomorrow night at rehearssal.
The OP.
Surely, you'll give it your best shot, and make us all proud. Eat a good balanced meal beforehand, and don't eat the fish.
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: Blowero on May 01, 2017, 02:08PMI'm glad you agree with me, but when you throw in phrases like, "it's a moot point", and "it couldn't matter less what horn you use", and "Jay Friedman saying Beethoven wrote for alto doesn't make it true. If we want to make a case for historical accuracy, we need better than that", you're confusing people who look to this site for playing advice. You guys had SilverBone so confused, he thought he was SUPPOSED to play tenor on the alto parts in order to be historically accurate.
I don't think Jay or anyone else is claiming to have ironclad proof of anything. However, his reasoning is pretty solid: If Beethoven CHOSE to write a part specifically for tenor trombone, then obviously he thought there was a difference between the alto and tenor instruments. We can't just dismiss what he wrote because he's "not a scholar".
Honestly, the players who do this for a living who have weighed in here seem to have a much more pragmatic approach to attempting to do justice to period music. They may not mean it like this, but when one skims through the comments of some of the weekend scholars here, one can't help but get the message, "We can never be 100% sure what they did back in those days, so play whatever horn you feel like." I emphatically disagree with that sentiment. As was written earlier, part of the fun is trying to get close.
Well, I'm gonna stop arguing now because I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread except your characterization of what I said. I must have chosen a wrong way to express myself then. I apologize if that was the case.
I don't think Jay or anyone else is claiming to have ironclad proof of anything. However, his reasoning is pretty solid: If Beethoven CHOSE to write a part specifically for tenor trombone, then obviously he thought there was a difference between the alto and tenor instruments. We can't just dismiss what he wrote because he's "not a scholar".
Honestly, the players who do this for a living who have weighed in here seem to have a much more pragmatic approach to attempting to do justice to period music. They may not mean it like this, but when one skims through the comments of some of the weekend scholars here, one can't help but get the message, "We can never be 100% sure what they did back in those days, so play whatever horn you feel like." I emphatically disagree with that sentiment. As was written earlier, part of the fun is trying to get close.
Well, I'm gonna stop arguing now because I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread except your characterization of what I said. I must have chosen a wrong way to express myself then. I apologize if that was the case.
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ttf_SilverBone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 01, 2017, 03:38PM don't eat the fish.
No worries, never touch the stuff!
No worries, never touch the stuff!
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ttf_baroquetrombone
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: SilverBone on May 01, 2017, 02:48PMNo, the OP is not long gone. But he didn't expect this discussion to mushroom into such an historical accuracy treatise (although he did make the mistake of asking the question that way).
He should have just asked if it was reasonable to use an alto on Leonore. And thank you for the responses that say yes. He'll be giving it a try tomorrow night at rehearssal.
The OP.
Good luck and have fun!
He should have just asked if it was reasonable to use an alto on Leonore. And thank you for the responses that say yes. He'll be giving it a try tomorrow night at rehearssal.
The OP.
Good luck and have fun!-
ttf_HowardW
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alto or tenor: Leonore #3
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 29, 2017, 01:41PMHis case is built around the fact that when Beethoven actually wanted tenor on top, he was very specific about requesting it in the original manuscript. I'm pretty sure the original handwritten scores specify alto trombone.
No, that's not true. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, et al. invariably indicated "Trombone primo," "Trombone secundo," and "Trombone terzo" (or the appropriate abbreviations) in their manuscripts.
Howard
No, that's not true. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, et al. invariably indicated "Trombone primo," "Trombone secundo," and "Trombone terzo" (or the appropriate abbreviations) in their manuscripts.
Howard