TromboneChat

If you're familiar with UK brass bands, you will know they can be loud when the music requires it. I mean *really* loud.

My issue is with the amount of air required to sustain extreme volume. As you will know, the bass trombone in particular requires insane amounts of air, and I find that when playing really loud, my phrasing goes out the window. I mean we're talking about a whole lung full of air, and expending it withing a few notes.

Is that musical? Is it normal to do this? Are my lungs just really tiny? Does anyone care? Does it matter? Do phrasing rules for bass trombonists not apply?

So many questions. I just feel that it's un-musical to have to take very frequent breaths, breaking the phrasing of the music. I've watched bass trombonists in top bands, and they actually miss out whole notes to take a breath. Is that ok?

You have to do what you have to do.  

Playing loud requires more air.  On a bass trombone that may mean not being able to play a long phrase in one breath.

I remember watching Velvet Brown (tuba player) play a piece with a long phrase and she stopped to take a breath when she needed to.  It wasn't unmusical.  I had a conductor tell me I had to play the opening chorale to the 2nd movement of the New World Symphony in 4 bar phrases.  I could only play 2, which I did.  I don't think she noticed.

I played tuba on the Tchaikovsky "Romeo and Juliet".  It has what I call the "thirty second note".  It's you on tuba playing a B   for what seems like bar after bar.  It's you, a tymp playing 4 raps to the bar, and the cellos coming in at rare places.  I don't circular breathe that well, so I found a few places to take the breath I needed.

You can try to improve your air handling (not actual capacity) with things like the Breathing Gym, which might help a little.  If you are a geezer like me, your lungs have a lot less capacity than they did when you were younger.

I believe efficiency has a lot to do with how much air we must use at any dynamic.

...Geezer

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 24, 2017, 08:47AMYou can try to improve your air handling (not actual capacity) with things like the Breathing Gym, which might help a little.  If you are a geezer like me, your lungs have a lot less capacity than they did when you were younger.
A bit of a side note perhaps, because I saw that in some LSO trumpet stars, but seems to fit well in that case.

By the time when Maurice Murphy and Rod Franks were still sharing the 1st chair in the LSO you could observe 2 very distinctive style of air management:

1. Rod Franks - he didn't have any (to my knowledge) health issues, so he like often to do long phrases in one breath, so did James Watson (The first lesson I had with him he made me play the first phrase of the Hindemith Sonata in one breath)
2. Maurice Murphy - he had some issues with his lungs (a chronic bronchitis or something of the kind) but he could take breaths so quickly, that one would barely notice it, especially in section playing.

When I was in college it was well-known that Chicago Symphony tuba player Arnold Jacobs continued his career unhindered after losing a lung to cancer.

My teacher reminded me of that fact whenever I said a passage was too long to play in one breath as marked.

Decades later, thanks to the internet, I found out that was all BS. Arnold Jacobs never lost a lung. Played his whole career with the normal set of two.


I think that if you are producing an appropriate tone it is unlikely that you are grossly inefficient in doing it and unlikely that there is much more that can be done with the same amount of breath. In the situations where you desperately need more time, 5% or 10% more isn't much of a help and there's no way you're going to double or triple your time because of some previously untapped power.

I've heard professional players drop out and re enter on long notes so I don't think we're alone on this problem.


I haven't heard a convincing demonstration of circular breathing on a bass trombone at the loud volume levels we are faced with here. If anyone can point me to one I should be curious to see it.

I don't know if I am diverging from topic with my post. I see the points I am about to make as all contributing factors to playing longer phrases and it involves efficiency.

Here's what playing with efficiency means to me:

1) Horn: I'll play the smallest horn I can get away with for the desired sound I either need or want. Why play a 42T when I can get a proper sound for the circumstances from a King 3B/F, for example. Smaller horn = air saved.

2) Mouthpiece: I'll play the smallest mpc I can get away with for the desired sound I either need or want. Why play a large, deep-cupped mpc with a large bore and back-bore if I can get a proper sound for the circumstances from a smaller mpc. Smaller mpc = air saved.

3) Articulation: Is my articulation crisp and clean, or is it a series of mini-explosions that result in a muddy sound? Crisp, clean articulations = air saved.

4) Tone: Is my tone as good as it can be right now, or is there air in it, or otherwise either not vibrant or out-of-tune. A good tone = air saved.

5) Body posture: Am I all tensed up when I play or am I as relaxed as possible? Relaxation = better play = air saved.

6) Slide technique: Do I stiff-arm pump the slide or do I try for more fluent movements using the wrist and arm in a more supple manner? Better slide technique = better, more relaxed play = air saved.

7) Dynamics: Am I over-blowing on my dynamics for the occasion? Proper dynamics could = air saved.

8) Embouchure: Is my embouchure as relaxed as it can be, with just the right amount of tension; no more and no less than needed -  for every note? Good embouchure = air saved.

9) Embouchure movement: This is where it gets tricky. I personally subscribe to the least amount of embouchure movement as possible technique. Excessive movement for me = more effort required. Less effort = air saved.

10) High range: Am I muscling out high notes and attempting to use too much air, or am I trying to gracefully play them with better technique? Less muscling and better technique = air saved.

It's what I strive for in my play. Each individual may disagree on any or all points.

...Geezer

I think all the points above is relevant. A more simple approach is about the another tread here about centered sound. If we in some way fight to get the sound we want, we will use more energy and air than we really need.

Leif

I did years of brass band playing so I am aware of how loud it can get when a conductor really pushes the band to do so.

Yup. You will need to occasionally take extra breaths to give the illusion of sustain. It takes practice to be able to do it, being able to take a lot of air in quickly with "minimal" disruption to what is happening around you. Sometimes you will need to make a decision as to what can be "sacrificed" so you have a good breath.

Is it unmusical? Maybe if people were listening to your part independently of the others. That isn't at all important though, you are part of a bigger picture of making music. If the conductor deems that that is the volume and sustain needed to create their idea of a musical image, then you need to do everything you can to achieve as close as possible to what they are demanding. Phrasing rules etc... if the conductor has an issue with the sound out the front of the ensemble then they might suggest you do something differently. If not, it doesn't matter if you think its good phrasing or not, you are not hearing it from out in front of the band where it matters. Trust your conductor.

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Apr 24, 2017, 02:20PMI don't know if I am diverging from topic with my post. I see the points I am about to make as all contributing factors to playing longer phrases and it involves efficiency.

Here's what playing with efficiency means to me:

1) Horn: I'll play the smallest horn I can get away with for the desired sound I either need or want. Why play a 42T when I can get a proper sound for the circumstances from a King 3B/F, for example. Smaller horn = air saved.

2) Mouthpiece: I'll play the smallest mpc I can get away with for the desired sound I either need or want. Why play a large, deep-cupped mpc with a large bore and back-bore if I can get a proper sound for the circumstances from a smaller mpc. Smaller mpc = air saved.

3) Articulation: Is my articulation crisp and clean, or is it a series of mini-explosions that result in a muddy sound? Crisp, clean articulations = air saved.

4) Tone: Is my tone as good as it can be right now, or is there air in it, or otherwise either not vibrant or out-of-tune. A good tone = air saved.

5) Body posture: Am I all tensed up when I play or am I as relaxed as possible? Relaxation = better play = air saved.

6) Slide technique: Do I stiff-arm pump the slide or do I try for more fluent movements using the wrist and arm in a more supple manner? Better slide technique = better, more relaxed play = air saved.

7) Dynamics: Am I over-blowing on my dynamics for the occasion? Proper dynamics could = air saved.

8) Embouchure: Is my embouchure as relaxed as it can be, with just the right amount of tension; no more and no less than needed -  for every note? Good embouchure = air saved.

9) Embouchure movement: This is where it gets tricky. I personally subscribe to the least amount of embouchure movement as possible technique. Excessive movement for me = more effort required. Less effort = air saved.

10) High range: Am I muscling out high notes and attempting to use too much air, or am I trying to gracefully play them with better technique? Less muscling and better technique = air saved.

It's what I strive for in my play. Each individual may disagree on any or all points.

...Geezer

Yes, this is all good. It pretty much sums up to efficiency of all resources involved. The choice of equipment is possible if you have more than one trombone.

My example from this weekend :This weekend I played an opera-concert wth a local symphony orchestra. There were opera works by Wagner, Verdi and others as well as some lighter orchesta music for example "Leichte Kavallerie" by von Suppe, The orchestra is not so big so I decided to scale down. I played my Bach 36BO with a Hammond 13M. This was because I needed to play softer and still sound loud. The Wagner piece was notated in forte and fortissimo and on the smaller equipment I then can get that color with a little less volume than if I had brought my large bore horn and my 12ML mouthpiece. This ment I could cut down the nuances. The conductor wanted more trombones until he got the right color. I did not need to hold back and it did sound as I played very loud. It was still loud, but not too loud.
Circular breathing has helped a lot of situations.

/Tom

In answer to the original question, no. You are no different than the rest of us. Bass trombonists, even at the top level, have to breathe a lot to do long phrases at high dynamics. It's how they do that breath and where they do it that sets them apart.

Something I tell all my students; you have two options, breathe in more often or breathe in more air (or both). A phrase or musical choice (which may include dynamics) should not be determined by the technical aspects of the trombone rather your technical development working towards a musical goal.
Basically this means working on your efficiency of every breath and working on snatch breaths, fitting a breath into a non-musical place without breaking the phrase. This can be achieved with leaving notes to reverb in the room with a slight opening at the end of it's length, a change in vibrato on a note or stagger breathing within a section. Always music first.

Very Few... and I mean very few composers and/or arrangers are bass trombonists. Not because the lack of oxygen screwed up that part of their brain , but because there are few bass trombonists in general.

I am a trombonist who composes - and I'll be the first to admit that despite all of my attempts to do otherwise, I still am guilty of not really considering air requirements on bass trb from time to time.

If you have to breathe, you have to breathe. [s]Sometimes[/s] many times it is the fault of writer, not you. Breathe where you need. Try to keep the phrase structure intact as much as possible, but really if it were that important, the composer would've taken the extra 5 minutes to ask his bass trombone playing buddies "hey, can you do this at fortissimo without breathing?"

Quote from: Exzaclee on Apr 25, 2017, 06:14AM Not because the lack of oxygen screwed up that part of their brain , but because there are few bass trombonists in general.
Can you support that claim of yours with a scientific proof? 

Quote from: watermailonman on Apr 24, 2017, 11:37PMYes, this is all good. It pretty much sums up to efficiency of all resources involved. The choice of equipment is possible if you have more than one trombone.

My example from this weekend :This weekend I played an opera-concert wth a local symphony orchestra. There were opera works by Wagner, Verdi and others as well as some lighter orchesta music for example "Leichte Kavallerie" by von Suppe, The orchestra is not so big so I decided to scale down. I played my Bach 36BO with a Hammond 13M. This was because I needed to play softer and still sound loud. The Wagner piece was notated in forte and fortissimo and on the smaller equipment I then can get that color with a little less volume than if I had brought my large bore horn and my 12ML mouthpiece. This ment I could cut down the nuances. The conductor wanted more trombones until he got the right color. I did not need to hold back and it did sound as I played very loud. It was still loud, but not too loud.
Circular breathing has helped a lot of situations.

/Tom

I agree with your ideas on equipment choice for specific circumstances. I am in a church group where the church is small and lively. On some pieces, the conductor is constantly telling us to play softer, no matter how softly we play. So I am switching to smaller equipment.

I still want as good a tone as I can get while attempting to play pianissimo. But the tone does not have to be broad. So for me, somewhat smaller equipment means it will be easier. Of course, technique plays a big role as well - on any sized equipment - so I practice pianissimo play and it should be doable on the heaviest of horns. But it seems silly for me to sport very large equipment under those special circumstances where there is no benefit on playing a larger horn. I can't help notice that, as a serendipity, I can play longer phrases.

Perhaps in regards to volume vs phrasing, the truth is that size of equipment does not matter. But if I think  it does, then it does. And if I feel more confident playing somewhat smaller equipment in this circumstance, then that is what I should do. Maybe five years from now I will feel differently. But we all must do what we must do when we must do it to get it done.

...Geezer

Size does  matter, and bigger is not necessarily better.

It takes more air to fill up a larger trombone and playing it louder means more air still.  I can't hold a phrase on my bass as long as I used to.  Of course 30 years of working in chemical plants was not salubrious to that either.  I'd bet if I wasn't a chemical engineer/chemist I'd have more lung power today.  And 10 years of smoking as well as growing up in New York City probably didn't help either.

I can hold a middle C at a whisper-issimo for about 50 seconds.

I'll bet that's at the mid-lower end of the curve but I don't know.

Anyone else care to offer their time for that?

Hi Hicks.  I also play bass trombone in a UK brass band, and you describe the exact same experiences that I have.

Some of the stuff we have to play makes me almost faint out of my chair, gasping like a fish.

If I don't have enough air my tuning goes off, so I take a breath rather than let that happen.

I've discussed this with another bass bone from a nearby band, and he says exactly the same thing too.

You are not alone!

It's the same for all of us. You develop air management strategies, as talked about above, in order to deliver what is really needed in the band sound from your seat. It's surprising how little that can be, sometimes; if you are just pumping extra juice into the band smoothie by adding your voice to a full ensemble sustained ff, then it is essentially your job not to poke out of the mix. You won't poke out of the mix if you back off on the force, but you might well if you play as loudly as you can while breathing often. But others have the mix under control - in a good ensemble. If your conical brethren aren't shouldering their ff burden properly, it can feel rather exposed to be playing trombone. Encourage the euphoniums, baritones, and horns to blow out as teams.

One needs to have a clear concept of what one's role in the ensemble is at such times. There are many conical instruments in the brass band, all making a big organ-like noise together. The trombone in that mix struggles to fulfil its basic role of tonal relief. Sure, you can go to big fat equipment that lets you blast your brains out with a more conical noise, but to do that is IMO to miss the whole point of playing trombone in the brass band - to produce a tone that is characteristically brighter and more focussed than the conical instruments.

For perspective, try playing contra trombone. Same issues, but much more so.

If you have an other part-mate or section-mate who happens to be in unison with you on a specific phrase or set of phrases or even the whole tune, get together with them and decide when you will stagger your breathing so that a continuity of sound exists.

There is an art to letting go of a note and coming back in after a breath such that no one will notice. Obviously, it involves a very subtle attack and mini-crescendo upon re-entry.

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Apr 26, 2017, 09:31AMI agree with your ideas on equipment choice for specific circumstances. I am in a church group where the church is small and lively. On some pieces, the conductor is constantly telling us to play softer, no matter how softly we play. So I am switching to smaller equipment.


I have a new wacko theory.

You know how altos are good for high parts?  Most people say they have the same range on alto or tenor, but alto makes it much easier to play high sustained parts without wearing out.

Based on some experience with my plastic alto last week, that might be totally wrong. 

I noticed I was playing high parts softer.  And with little effort.  Well, doh.  But my theory is the horn makes no difference; the sole advantage is playing softer.

Now if they just make a plastic bass, I can test my theory even further.  Double slide in F please.   

Quote from: timothy42b on May 15, 2017, 12:21PMI have a new wacko theory.

You know how altos are good for high parts?  Most people say they have the same range on alto or tenor, but alto makes it much easier to play high sustained parts without wearing out.

Based on some experience with my plastic alto last week, that might be totally wrong. 

I noticed I was playing high parts softer.  And with little effort.  Well, doh.  But my theory is the horn makes no difference; the sole advantage is playing softer.

Now if they just make a plastic bass, I can test my theory even further.  Double slide in F please.  

How about simply chaining two slides together with a piece of Tygon and some tape "bracing"?

The double slide will put it just a bit below F (maybe Eb?).  And you get 8 or 9 positions on the double slide.

Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2017, 01:26PMHow about simply chaining two slides together with a piece of Tygon and some tape "bracing"?

The double slide will put it just a bit below F (maybe Eb?).  And you get 8 or 9 positions on the double slide.

Hmm.  I have a pBone and two slides.  Might be worth a try. 

Quote from: timothy42b on May 16, 2017, 05:10AMHmm.  I have a pBone and two slides.  Might be worth a try. 

Post a sound clip! 

...Geezer

A teaching story from the annals of Urbie Green. (I am not the trombonist in the following story, but I trust him completely.):

A young trombonist in NYC got a chance to play a recording session in a 4 trombone section w/Urbie Green at his prime playing lead. He was didn't want to say much just because...well, it was Urbie Green!!!...and Urbie was notoriously silent in terms of giving directions to his section mates. However, at some point in the session the new guy was having trouble playing a phrase...he was playing 3rd...without taking a breath somewhere in the middle. He finally asked Urbie what to do and Urbie answered with a phrase for the ages:

"Well...I believe that we all should breathe wherever we have to."

Like dat.

We are all different physically. We all play instruments with differing overall resistances and quite often we are all playing in different registers, often with other instruments that themselves have overall different breathing necessities. I learned long ago as a tuba player that sniff breaths...through the nose... were immensely valuable when playing bass parts like those in rapid Sousa marches, and I use them to this day when I'm trying to get a real emergency breath or two or three in a phrase. I also play much more open-blowing horns than most American-style trombonists, horns that simply require more air no matter how 'efficient" my embouchure and playing system may be. As a result, I often mark breaths... ( ' ) for a really quick breath, ' for a normal breath, '' for a big breath and ''' for the biggest breath I can possibly take.

Works for me...try it.

S.

Quote from: sabutin on May 16, 2017, 07:35AMAs a result, I often mark breaths... ( ' ) for a really quick breath, ' for a normal breath, '' for a big breath and ''' for the biggest breath I can possibly take.

S.
Stealing this idea, thanks.

Brian Hecht posted a video - https://youtu.be/-LQYdorjvn0 Notice how he literaly breathes after two to three notes and keeps the frasing really good.

Many players I have met say that playing loud needs to be practiced, otherwise when it comes to playing forte you start to do some things wrong, either you get too cramped or too relaxed.

I have played a bass bone for like a month (not regularly) and my bass bone playing didn't get any better because I needed to practice it for half a year non stop. The dinamics was bad. Jim Markey made a video about doubling which was my case - https://youtu.be/xlCvtMQu2jA , so practice everything that you can't play!

It's impossible for a brass player to play long phrases without break at FFF or FF.  Composers should be aware of this but aren't always.  Use the phrase markings as a guideline, and figure out where you can get breaths that least disrupt the phrase.  Do your best to honor the intent of the Composer and follow the directions of the conductor, but if you have to breath you have to break the phrase.  Sometimes you'll need to make compromises between volume and phrasing, there is no way to conserve air and play louder.  If your breathing properly, and making the best use of the lung capacity that God gave you then you have to decide what is more important being true the the phrase markings, or the Volume markings.

I believe that playing larger equipment at a more full dynamic lends itself better to snatching a quick breath - as compared to playing the same phrase on small equipment at a lesser dynamic. Am I right?

...Geezer

I believe that playing larger equipment at a more full dynamic lends itself better to snatching a quick breath - as compared to playing the same phrase on small equipment at a lesser dynamic. Am I right?

...Geezer