TromboneChat

A discussion started in this thread http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,99358.msg1190763.html#new, but I think this topic belongs here.

What people describe as a "complex" sound with overtones is the result of centred notes. By this, I mean note and not pitch. Listen to Joe Alessi, Stefan Schulz, Stanley Clark and others, and you'll hear a really interesting sound. This is not equipment related - it's them, and we all can learn to do it.

A centred sound has many aspects, and some were covered on the first TTF topic. One may also discuss whether a strong embouchure is needed prior to centering notes, or whether a centred sound happens somewhat naturally as the embouchure strengthens.

Sam Burtis has described overtones in terms of formants. I understand the definition as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formant, and it seems consistent with what my thinking is.

As for personal benefits, with a centred sound, I can play with far less effort, my sound is more interesting, my sound blends better with other players in most situations, and it doesn't break up until I reach an extreme volume.

I started to change my approach to sound production about 10 years ago after I found one of Al Kay's clinic sheets here http://www.alkay.ca/documents/clinic_sheets/alkay_playloud_e.pdf. There are many aspects in this sheet, but I learned the basics of building embouchure strength and overtones by practising according to its contents and then taking occasional lessons with Al.

I have also strayed from a centred sound when I was doing range building exercises, and I had to learn how to get it back. Now, when I first pick up my horn, the first thing in my warm up is to get the best centred sound I can. I was taught to do this at a very loud volume. Once my notes are centred, I can reduce my volume and easily maintain this sound.

My recent challenge is to continue my best centred sound to my bass trombone playing. It is pretty natural on an 11C (actually Al Kay signature MP), but taking it to a Griego .75 is a new thing. I feel that I'm getting there.

I welcome your thoughts on this topic.

Something I find odd is that Jay advocates playing in the top third of the pitch. However, Alessi advocates playing near the bottom of the slot for a larger sound.

I won't say that they sound similar, but they both have great sounds and obviously both play very well.

I do have to say that I progressed a lot as a player when I moved my personal pitch center much lower than I had it previously.

That's the difference in feeling of two different embouchure types.  Much of Jay's teaching reflects what works for him and his embouchure type and Joe's teaching reflects what works for his own embouchure type.

If Jay played toward the lower side of the center it would be dull and flat - but pushing it up (plus his choice of equipment) makes it lively. 
If Joe played toward the upper side of center it would be thin and bright - but pushing it down gives it body and fullness.

Yes, since they are two different players, there must be a difference in how to achieve goals. I don't know how to get a centered sound, but I believe it helps to have a kind of sound goal. Either another player or a style of sound. Anyway it helps me. Understand how to get it is not easy without help. Try everyday and have a goal inside our head?

One question that might help is what can cause an uncentred sound?
Leif

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 23, 2017, 08:55PMThat's the difference in feeling of two different embouchure types.  Much of Jay's teaching reflects what works for him and his embouchure type and Joe's teaching reflects what works for his own embouchure type.

If Jay played toward the lower side of the center it would be dull and flat - but pushing it up (plus his choice of equipment) makes it lively. 
If Joe played toward the upper side of center it would be thin and bright - but pushing it down gives it body and fullness.

That makes sense. Thanks, Doug.

Quote from: savio on Apr 23, 2017, 10:31PMYes, since they are two different players, there must be a difference in how to achieve goals. I don't know how to get a centered sound, but I believe it helps to have a kind of sound goal. Either another player or a style of sound. Anyway it helps me. Understand how to get it is not easy without help. Try everyday and have a goal inside our head?

One question that might help is what can cause an uncentred sound?
Leif

Yes, Leif... concept is king... that way the brain controls the face. You should not think about what your face is doing whist you perform and very rarely during practise. The brain is the control system and you have to use it. Concept.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Apr 24, 2017, 12:24AMYes, Leif... concept is king
Absolutely. Everybody tricks their mind in a different fashion. Sound and efficiency is what takes lead.

One more benefit I meant to include is with a centred sound, my sound varies far less when I use alternate positions. For example, some people report a difference in sound when C  is played in 6 versus T1, or F in 1 or 6. I no longer see much difference, as my air stream is "cleaner".

I am working through how to explain or teach this to other people, hence my interest in this topic.

There is a cheap smart phone tuner available that shows the overtones as peaks: Tonal Energy Tuner. http://tonalenergy.com/products/te-tuner/. After being introduced to this product, I showed it with interest to some friends. It looks pretty.

I showed this tuner to a pro trumpet soloist, for use with some amateur players, and his negative response was quick. I paraphrase: "Martin, you play a lot, you're a strong player, and you don't need a device to tell you when your sound is centred. The other people aren't playing enough to have enough embouchure strength, so this tuner isn't really useful. There you go.

Having worked more on my 891Z over the past 8 years, I'm now playing as much bass right now as tenor. I've worked through many things, including centering my bass trombone sound. Part of my challenge has been the mouthpiece size difference, but I'm satisfied with my progress to date.

If I was as good as Leif, I wold make a video. 

Q: How to develop centered notes.

A: Long tones.

The classic Carmine Caruso Six Notes exercises are aimed at precisely this "centering" idea.  There are really six versions of the Six Notes in Carmine's approach...I have many more, myself...and it is very important that players do them pretty much as he taught them to get their full benefit. I have written about them numerous times, but I no longer think that any way other than aural example...preferably live...or personally coached practice can really get them to the point that they are doing really good things for most players. I have taught them...oh, hundreds and hundreds of times, I suppose...and I am still amazed at how such a seemingly simple exercise can be played badly in so many ways, even by very fine players. It's like there's nowhere to hide. After the initial attacks of each of the first two notes the tongue has nothing left to do but function as an air aiming device, and that completely baffles most students. They have no idea of what the tongue is doing, and when the third "breath" attack is required...the real secret of this exercise, in my opinion...they simply cannot stop using the tongue. They don't even know that they are doing it. It's as if they have no control over the tip of their own tongue. Once they get it and the tongue finally relaxes on the third note, then and only then does the centering begin. (Go here for an article that gives an overview of this exercise if you do not know what it is.)

And what is "centering?" Why is it so difficult? I think that Doug pins it above. Individual physiognomies and equipment choices dictate where the blow feels most natural on the possible pitch width of a given note on a set of equipment...m'pce, leadpipe, horn, etc. Natural is "centered"...for the individual player. Laurie Frink's pitch bending exercises deal with the same search. A brass instrument can be "pitched" through quite a range of pitch and work quite well. There is no real, permanent, absolute "center" to given pitches, certainly not in the middle and lower ranges. But when it feels natural and comfortable, that's where one's own, personal center lies on that equipment. Once you find that consistently...it's a "feel" thing, really...then all you need to do is tune the horn to play that center at around A 440 )or wherever the pitch of the ensemble may be) and there you are.

I have personally found the larger equipment has a broader "center" range than does smaller equipment, and that goes for the whole "flexibility/focus" dichotomy as well.

Any good long tone approach will eventually help to find one's own real center if done well.

Bet on it.

Later...

S.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 23, 2017, 08:55PMThat's the difference in feeling of two different embouchure types.  Much of Jay's teaching reflects what works for him and his embouchure type and Joe's teaching reflects what works for his own embouchure type.

If Jay played toward the lower side of the center it would be dull and flat - but pushing it up (plus his choice of equipment) makes it lively. 
If Joe played toward the upper side of center it would be thin and bright - but pushing it down gives it body and fullness.

Do you think they actually play high or low of center?  Or is it a mental image that they use that works for them, but maybe they're really playing in the center? 

Quote from: timothy42b on Apr 24, 2017, 07:57AMDo you think they actually play high or low of center?  Or is it a mental image that they use that works for them, but maybe they're really playing in the center? 

Center is not the best word here.

Chris Stearn

focused?

...Geezer

I should clarify.... we are looking for the most vibrant and interesting sound. Playing in tune is part of that. A sound in your head... pitch and quality. Core. There's another word. Talking about sound is like dancing about painting...  
That means we just end up confused. Ah well...

Chris Stearn

Personally I like the terms vibrant and sweet spot. The latter is often used to tuning as well, as many horns have relatively defined tolerancies on tuning, and departing of it often creates both timbral and intonation issues.

Quote from: blast on Apr 24, 2017, 08:27AMI should clarify.... we are looking for the most vibrant and interesting sound. Playing in tune is part of that. A sound in your head... pitch and quality. Core. There's another word. Talking about sound is like dancing about painting...  
That means we just end up confused. Ah well...

Chris Stearn

Vibrant is hard to argue against. I don't think anyone could blow a bad or out-of-tune note if it were vibrant?. Perhaps resonant would be a synonym. Pure? Clear? Lush? In-tune? If we think of playing "in-tune" as much more than merely having the note vibrate at the optimal frequency, then "in-tune" could sum it all up.

Tough one...

...Geezer

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 24, 2017, 08:44AMPersonally I like the terms vibrant and sweet spot. The latter is often used to tuning as well, as many horns have relatively defined tolerancies on tuning, and departing of it often creates both timbral and intonation issues.

The term "sweet spot" is used in many other endeavors as well. It's a great term!

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Apr 24, 2017, 08:48AMThe term "sweet spot" is used in many other endeavors as well. It's a great term!

...Geezer

I like sweet spot.  Our terms for tone are limited.

The advantage of centered as a term is that it also describes a method for getting to the sweet spot, which is what the OP was getting at. 

I don't know if I can deliberately play above or below the middle of the slot (is that better than calling it the center?).  But I do have a tone quality in my mind that I'm trying to achieve, and I think that's how I'm doing it. 

It might be that you could check what you're doing by the habitual position of your tuning slide, if you adjust that.  If you've made the change to play higher in the slot, you might find that your tuning slide has to be out a little farther.  Or not, maybe your hand adjusts instead.

I heard a trombone quartet play in church last Sunday.  One player projected much more than the other three.  To my ears his tone was much brighter (though not thin.) 

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Apr 24, 2017, 08:48AMThe term "sweet spot" is used in many other endeavors as well. It's a great term!
Well...If I can put a smile on all ladies' faces in the room just by sounding a horn (whatever piece of brass I have in my hands to play with) than probably I have found that sweet spot... 

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 24, 2017, 09:21AMWell...If I can put a smile on all ladies' faces in the room just by sounding a horn (whatever piece of brass I have in my hands to play with) than probably I have found that sweet spot... 

Make the ladies cry and the men sigh...

...Geezer

Leif you have a beautiful sound. Because you have been listening so much to good sounds, that is why you have a good consept.

As Chris says, we are writing about sound. I'm trying to think of the things I do to ensure my sound is centred. My actual habits and description may vary,  but I'll do my best.

After my first note, which always a long tone or so, I hold my head still and "move" the mouthpiece around, generally up and down slightly. Using the same air, generally for at least a loud volume, I will find a spot where my sound becomes louder, clearer, and more vibrant; the "sweet spot" if you prefer. Once I find that spot, I continue to refine my sound further. Then I move on to the rest of my warm up. While playing, sometimes I will work to improve the sound of a long tone in the same manner.

Long tones are the answer to many questions, and they are raised regularly in various topics. I attended a clinic by the bass trombonist of a major US symphony on Saturday, and he had a monstrous sound. He said that one hour per day of long tones is required for what he does.    Yup, and I'm not him. He sounded excellent at his job.

We all do long tones. These days, my long tones are interspersed through my practice time of 15 - 60 minutes per day. Personally, I find little benefit in just playing long tones unless I have a specific concept and goal in mind.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 24, 2017, 10:50AMLeif you have a beautiful sound. Because you have been listening so much to good sounds, that is why you have a good consept.

Thanks Svenne, one thing is sure, I have a very strong concept inside of how I want my sound to be. But the truth is I for many years in fact had equipment that made my sound too big. Maybe unfocused.  I practiced a lot but had trouble getting it the way I wanted. My teacher told it was nearly too big and told I should go smaller. I didn't listen before many years later. Some years ago I read some of Chris posts and I tried some smaller equipment and recorded it. Couldn't believe my ears, sound was suddenly where I wanted it to be!

So I believe right equipment for the player is important. Maybe not big or small, but right for that given player. I didn't have the insight or knowledge and I also refused to listen advices.

So I think right equipment is one factor, but more important is practice and a concept to practice towards. If we don't have a concept, we will not get anywhere with our practice. I have in fact practiced a lot, and I like my sound today. I only wish my technique could be better, but it seems to go very slow. But in fact when I listen any trombone I endorse sound before technique.

In the end I have to admit I dont know exactly how to practice to get a good sound. Nor technique. But the more experienced people here have seen and listen more and can give better answers. Im not exactly sure how to practice.

Leif

Quote from: savio on Apr 24, 2017, 01:49PMThanks Svenne, one thing is sure, I have a very strong concept inside of how I want my sound to be. But the truth is I for many years in fact had equipment that made my sound too big. Maybe unfocused.  I practiced a lot but had trouble getting it the way I wanted. My teacher told it was nearly too big and told I should go smaller. I didn't listen before many years later. Some years ago I read some of Chris posts and I tried some smaller equipment and recorded it. Couldn't believe my ears, sound was suddenly where I wanted it to be!

So I believe right equipment for the player is important. Maybe not big or small, but right for that given player. I didn't have the insight or knowledge and I also refused to listen advices.

So I think right equipment is one factor, but more important is practice and a concept to practice towards. If we don't have a concept, we will not get anywhere with our practice. I have in fact practiced a lot, and I like my sound today. I only wish my technique could be better, but it seems to go very slow. But in fact when I listen any trombone I endorse sound before technique.

In the end I have to admit I dont know exactly how to practice to get a good sound. Nor technique. But the more experienced people here have seen and listen more and can give better answers. Im not exactly sure how to practice.

Leif

Well Leif, look at it this way.... you are getting a great sound... by general agreement on this forum, so the way you have done that must be a path that can be used. That sound in your head that you want to produce has led you to ways to practise and equipment choices that have worked.
The biggest thing by far is that you (and a lot of the rest of us) love the sound that George Roberts used to make.
Keeping that sound idea and working toward it is central.
It is so simple as an idea that most people dismiss it and layer complexity into their practise.
We had a student, side by side session in the orchestra yesterday. My first year student came in and whilst he enjoyed the session, it was obvious (at least I hope it was) that his idea of sound have yet to develop. In the afternoon the professional player returned .... my ex-student... and his wonderful sound was even more apparent. That sound is the result of years of hard work and a clear sound concept.... it takes time.
Keep it simple.... keep chasing...

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Apr 25, 2017, 12:58AMWell Leif, look at it this way.... you are getting a great sound... by general agreement on this forum, so the way you have done that must be a path that can be used. That sound in your head that you want to produce has led you to ways to practise and equipment choices that have worked.
The biggest thing by far is that you (and a lot of the rest of us) love the sound that George Roberts used to make.
Keeping that sound idea and working toward it is central.
It is so simple as an idea that most people dismiss it and layer complexity into their practise.
We had a student, side by side session in the orchestra yesterday. My first year student came in and whilst he enjoyed the session, it was obvious (at least I hope it was) that his idea of sound have yet to develop. In the afternoon the professional player returned .... my ex-student... and his wonderful sound was even more apparent. That sound is the result of years of hard work and a clear sound concept.... it takes time.
Keep it simple.... keep chasing...

Chris Stearn

Then I keep on the road im already on. You explain things very clear Chris!

Leif

Quote from: Torobone on Apr 24, 2017, 11:12AM

We all do long tones. These days, my long tones are interspersed through my practice time of 15 - 60 minutes per day. Personally, I find little benefit in just playing long tones unless I have a specific concept and goal in mind.



+1. I practice to rectify my shortcomings  from the last gig and prepare for the next one. It's useful to understand why ones tone isn't as good as it could be, and this is where I think that having a concept of an "active" embouchure is helpful. That ALL of the elements of the embouchure are adjustable for better or worse, as an example the idea of adjusting the tongue shape to aid high notes is a common theme on this forum. You could add pursing the lips to form a smaller lip buzz to aid higher tones, conversely relaxing them for lower ones, playing in a slouching or upright position etc.

Working on a cruise ship, one night after the show and out of sheer frustration and fuelled with too much alcohol I tried to break my embouchure, and failed, because the next day an element that I'd been trying to improve, namely focus was improved. Sometimes trying to break something or reverse engineer it is a good way to find out how it works.

Practicing long tones without a sound concept, and without a method of how tone can be improved, is not going to be the best use of practice time.

I started a fellow musician (a guitarist) who wanted to try the tbn. I advised him to get a mouthpiece and a Warburton Buzzard and set him up with a regular embouchure and some exercises for him to buzz along to on a keyboard. This was to see whether he had a natural embouchure for the horn, which he did, because a week later when a student Yamaha tbn arrived he had a great sound almost straight away.
IMO this is because being surrounded by music  he had a good sound concept, and the focused embouchure.  I regret not videoing his first days because they were so good. Unfortunately he gave up after a few months due to having asthma which I didn't know about at the time. It was quite a surprise  to hear a beginner play with such a clear, steady, and full tone so early on..

Shouldn't playing a wind instrument improve his condition than rather making it worst? Just thinking out loud...

IT took me 5 years finding out how to play on brass  instruments. I followed lessons, masterclasses, workshops etc. at 30 famous pro players. (i am only teaching children to play).
Wether a lot of musicians don't know what they are doing or they don't want  to  tell  others, I don't know.

One of the secrets I wanna share is:  keep the tip of your tongue close to your under teeth when playiing a tone.

Okay.... I'll tell you the secret....

THERE ARE NO SECRETS

Look, listen, learn, practise.

Stop looking for short cuts.

Take lessons when you think you need them.

That's aimed at anybody who wants to get better.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Apr 25, 2017, 08:41AMOkay.... I'll tell you the secret....

THERE ARE NO SECRETS

Look, listen, learn, practise.

Stop looking for short cuts.

Take lessons when you think you need them.

That's aimed at anybody who wants to get better.

Chris Stearn

You can practice as much as you want, but if you practice in the wrong way, it's useless.
Do you want to take lessons at a teacher who doesn't know how to realy play at brass instruments? Do what you want, but it's useless.

I give you a free hint for another secret: look carefully how Dereck Watkins is playing.

In the mean time I helped a lot of people playing better 4 times.

Chris just meant that there are no shortcuts to real practice and mindful work. Playing on a professional level takes time....sometimes we need years to really get what we've been taught  that's how life goes. As for brass players that you can look up to for embouchure management there are quite a few:

1. James Morisson is my favourite for his abillity to sound terrific on so many instruments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuus2cXzRY
2. Terry Clark
3. Allen Vizzuti
4. Derek was also amazingly efficient player - I believe that he could probably play all the day long without getting tired
5. Bill Watrous made look everything so effortless, so did Wycliffe

The list can be continued...

What I mean is you have to use your own brain... not rely on other people's brains.
A good teacher teaches people to think for themselves.

ChrisStearn

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 25, 2017, 04:43AMShouldn't playing a wind instrument improve his condition than rather making it worst? Just thinking out loud...

Normally I'd agree, but he's short with a small build and also the slide was long on him. He wanted to give it a go, and has tried a few other instruments since. A very musical guy, plays nice guitar and someone that I used to play a lot of duo gigs with.
But as I said, it was shocking how good his tone was right off the bat.

I'm remembering things as this thread progresses.

I attended a Shires clinic last Saturday with Brian Hecht, bass trombone of the Atlanta SO here in
Toronto. I asked him about centred sound and he said yes (of course) and either my question or his answer included overtones.

He said that as the bass player, the section agreed he would produce low overtones, the second player would produce the medium overtones, and the principal would produce the high overtones. This seems different to my understanding of overtone production, where everybody gets as many overtones in their individual sound.

Apologies if I have misunderstood, but is this possible?

Quote from: Pre59 on Apr 25, 2017, 12:05PMNormally I'd agree, but he's short with a small build and also the slide was long on him. He wanted to give it a go, and has tried a few other instruments since. A very musical guy, plays nice guitar and someone that I used to play a lot of duo gigs with.
But as I said, it was shocking how good his tone was right off the bat.

If he was so natural in getting good tone why not try a short slide (like on some courtois horns) or a valved horn (valve trombone, bass trumpet or something similar...)

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 25, 2017, 12:20PMIf he was so natural in getting good tone why not try a short slide (like on some courtois horns) or a valved horn (valve trombone, bass trumpet or something similar...)

You can't make someone want to play an instrument; he tried the last sax and flute afterwards, I believe he still messes with the flute.

Sure...so you got a fiddler  I am another one, but I tend to keep my fiddles....

I am very interested how other players hold their;
1 chin
2 teeth
3 stomach
4 chest
5 tongue
6 throat
7 mouthpiece
8 trombone
9 body
As I wrote, knowledge is very important. One can try to ride on a bike without wheels or on one with wheels.

Willy,
 
It function as a system, not a modular horn where you isolate different elements and tweak them. When you change one aspect of you playing this often has influence on other aspects/variables as well.

You can still isolate different elements and tweak them.

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 26, 2017, 12:12AMWilly,
 
It function as a system, not a modular horn where you isolate different elements and tweak them. When you change one aspect of you playing this often has influence on other aspects/variables as well.

I know. It's a chain. I always try to find the weakest part of it with the student. Then we are going to practice that part.

Several years ago I started taking lessons again. I had learned to play with the smile-embouchure. Only one of the 30 top-musicians could tel me how to get rid of that. For me that was unbelieveble. The man told me what to do and in two minutes I succeded and played as nether before. After a few lessons I started teaching this kind of things in the whole land (the Netherlands).

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 26, 2017, 12:31AMYou can still isolate different elements and tweak them.

That's exactly what I did myself and now do to others.

I stil play your mouthpiece. We met in Paris (France) at the Trombone Festival.
You managed to give me a mouthpiece in five minutes that bettered my Hamilton. Great job!
In the mean time I also play good at a Greg Black 6.5 AL. But it's smaller and (of course) also the sound is lichter. But it costs less air.
I hoped to see you a week ago at the Slide Factory in the Netherlands, but you weren't there. Do you once visit Europe?

I'm not in disagreement with Doug's statement...or at least I think so. You can treat a specific problem in your playing, that it may refer to a specific use of any given anatomic part of the system, but it is likely to alter sympatheticaly other variables. Hopefully without hi-jacking this thread I'm going to post a video of Thomas Stevens speaking about Schlossberg trumpet teachings...It was interesting to hear that he would only give exercises that treat students weaknesses/liabilities and would not even touch on things that are workong well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFdDgeRWc

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 26, 2017, 03:15AMI'm not in disagreement with Doug's statement...or at least I think so. You can treat a specific problem in your playing, that it may refer to a specific use of any given anatomic part of the system, but it is likely to alter sympatheticaly other variables. Hopefully without hi-jacking this thread I'm going to post a video of Thomas Stevens speaking about Schlossberg trumpet teachings...It was interesting to hear that he would only give exercises that treat students weaknesses/liabilities and would not even touch on things that are workong well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFdDgeRWc

For me personally all information is great to have. One can try out wat works and what not.

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 26, 2017, 03:15AMI'm not in disagreement with Doug's statement...or at least I think so. You can treat a specific problem in your playing, that it may refer to a specific use of any given anatomic part of the system, but it is likely to alter sympatheticaly other variables. Hopefully without hi-jacking this thread I'm going to post a video of Thomas Stevens speaking about Schlossberg trumpet teachings...It was interesting to hear that he would only give exercises that treat students weaknesses/liabilities and would not even touch on things that are workong well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFdDgeRWc

For me personally all information is great to have. One can try out wat works and what not.