TromboneChat

I am am looking for some help.  My son (6th grade) has been playing the trombone for 3 years now.  At the beginning of this school year, at the encouragement of his school band teacher, he also picked up the Euphonium.  He plays both instruments with the Schilke 51D mouthpiece. (Medium deep bore / 25.55mm inner diameter.)  He is planning to give up the Euphonium at the end of the school year and concentrate on the trombone.  Only problem is that his student Euphonium makes his student trombone (Bach 301) sound like junk; and he really wants a trombone that sounds better.  Most of what I have read online is that after a couple of years of playing the trombone, it is time to upgrade......but it is also clear that most kids don't hit the 2 to 3 year mark until high school.

......so I am wondering what to do next. Mom and dad are ready to get him a new instrument to help keep him motivated.  We think he has earned it.  (He even practices every day with minimal prodding).  It is also true that purchasing an upgraded trombone for him will be cheaper than finishing up the last 2 years of rental payments on the Euphonium.

The general consensus I have read is that one shouldn't waste their money on a intermediate trombone....they should simply skip to a pro-trombone.

My questions is whether a pro-trombone is the right thing for a 12 year old?  Will it cause lung/breathing problems?  It is a mistake?  Is an intermediate horn (0.525 bore) a much better decision?

With that said, we have been to a variety of music shops and my son loves the sounds he can get out of some pro horns.  He is thrilled at how much more stable the high notes are.  (Almost no one stocks intermediate horns....so the stores keep giving him 0.547s to play - and calling them intermediates).  His favorite so far have been the  Conn 88HO, Vintage Conn 88H and Getzen 547 Capri.  He has tried the Bach 42BO and Bach 42B and isn't so crazy about the tone quality, and he thinks they take too much air.  He has played the Getson 725 dual bore, and the sound is better than his current, but not as good as the first three horns I mentioned.    Tried a Bach TBSLO310 (Soloist) and didn't like the sound.  Tried an Eastman MTB 232G (private label), which had the same tone quality as his current instrument....at three times the price.

Other notes:  Son just got invited to play in the All-City Honor Band for Euphonium.  He is the strongest in the low brass section of his school - albeit a small school.  His private teacher's assessment is that he plays at the high school level.  Just did a Solo Festival with John Williams' "Hedwig's Theme." - an arrangement...not the original score.

You are probably wondering why we don't just ask his private teacher.  Great question!  His private teacher is very talented, is playing with the local professional symphony, but he is very young and his primary instrument is the Tuba.....He admittedly doesn't know trombone brands well, even though he can play them just fine.

Thank you for any help and guidance

I'd let him try as many horns as you can find, and then take a look at the used market. Also remember, every horn is different so just because one 42 plays excellent doesn't mean the next one will too.

Any concerns about him playing a 0.547 bore at his age (12)?

Schilke 51D for a 12 year old on a .547.


Could work. I guess. Maybe.  (But there might be better mpc choices.)


-----


What would DJ recommend, I wonder? Seems the boy is gravitating towards lighter .547 horns. Makes sense to me.

I (and every other student I knew at the time) had shuffled up to the 0.547, mostly Bach 42s, by 7th or 8th grade. It can work.

There are "intermediate" quality and then "intermediate" size. Don't fall into the 547 trap. You don't need a large bore (547) horn. A medium bore (525) horn will probably fit him best. The Getzen 725 is a dual bore (525/547) and is probably a good choice. A Bach 36b would also be a good option. Conn 52h will also work as would a Yamaha 640. A King 3b/f would not be an inappropriate choice either, although its a smaller bore (508).  The store is going to try to sell you what they have in stock.

The bore size thing is mostly about machismo, and its a trap young players, parents, and teachers seem to fall into regularly. Professionals play all sizes of tenors from 485 to 547. A high school kid does not need to have equipment on one extreme of that spectrum. Something in the middle is probably most appropriate. To me that means 508-525.

Anyway, he'll practice most on the horn he likes best, and ordering a horn blind can be a crap shoot. I'd buy him something from the store but try to steer him toward something smaller.

I liked a .525 Yamaha with F that I tried a couple of months ago. Unless the boy is in the national youth symphony, something like that would work until he finished high school. It would work in jazz band, concert band and orchestra (I've used my .525 in all of those situations, including the bass trombone part in jazz band, in the last two years - and got compliments on my great bass trombone sound LOL). Buy a cheap peashooter for marching band.

I second the Yamaha post - one of the best young trombone players I played alongside kept on a medium bore Yamaha Bb/F trombone until he was 18 and sounded better than I did.
Another very good player used a Conn Bb/F medium bore through university orchestras, brass bands and big bands (non-music student) and is still using it for funk/big band playing.

On the other hand, I started on a really heavy large bore trombone at 13. Peter Moore won the UK "Young Musician of the Year" at 12 playing a Bb/F Yamaha Xeno (I think that these are large bore only). The weight may be an issue, but there are attachments nowadays that help ease this.

Even if his teacher doesn't feel qualified to give brand recommendations, get them to hear some playing on one of the horns that your son likes. Any breathing issues should be obvious and they should be able to pick up on whether the instrument suits the player. You cannot really go wrong if the player likes playing an instrument, the teacher thinks that it works well with them and the captive audience thinks that it sounds good.

Thank you for the posts.  I still appreciate additional thoughts and ideas.

To Clarify:

1)  My son is playing a Schilke 51D Small shank for his 0.500 bore student trombone.  We would expect to change mouthpieces on a .547.  Not sure if we would change for a 0.525.
2)  We will likely buy him a used instrument. We plan to play before we purchase.....unless the instrument is returnable.

DJ....do you have any recommendations.  We are in the market....

I think a Yamaha medium or large bore would be worth trying. They are easy to play and sound great. I would also try some different mouthpieces. The 51D is not a good trombone mouthpiece for most people. It IS a good euphonium mouthpiece for most people. A Bach 5G would be a pretty mainstream choice and I'd start there.

There has been debate over the years about whether a 51D is an effective trombone mpc.

The Schilke mouthpiece is a hazard of having a primarily Tuba player teach him trombone.   Thank you for the advice on the Bach 5G.

 

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 22, 2017, 06:56PMSchilke 51D for a 12 year old on a .547.


Could work. I guess. Maybe.  (But there might be better mpc choices.)


-----


What would DJ recommend, I wonder? Seems the boy is gravitating towards lighter .547 horns. Makes sense to me.

I think if he's playing euphonium, a large bore trombone is not out of the question.  From your descriptions of the tests run so far it seems he's trying to play the trombone like his euphonium so he's overblowing the smaller trombones.  Note that when I was in High School I hated Bach trombones also -- found them hard to play.  I preferred Kings.

The Conn 88H is a nice "lighter" trombone.

The Yamaha 448 (a somewhat stripped down version of an older Pro model) is pretty common.  A used 648 might be a good shot.  Or a 682 or a 620.

I'd put in a plug for my favorite "sleeper" trombone: the Benge 190-F.  They weren't popular so they tend to go cheap but they were a really high grade pro trombone.  Also see if you can find the Holton large bores: 150, 158, or 159.

Good luck in your search.  Lots of great trombones out there.

you   have  come  to   the right  place  for advice  and opinions  !!!!!!!!
  6th grade  ---well  i can  imagine  he will be growing  --but  for  now  the  547s might  be a  bit  
    too much   ///  really  there  are  several  things  i consider  when  matching up
     players  and trombones   //size//careful//habits //taste  //budgets //
 from  what   he  felt  about  the  bach  42s taking too much  air--as much  can be said about the
  other ones   88h//getzen capri  with the  air  //
 bach holds  up quality durability and resale  best  followed  by  conn   getzen next and yamaha  last
    for   step  ups i have  placed  yamaha  356  getzen duo bore   // 547S//AND  525B/F
 the  highest  quality  is bach and  unless  he   he  is already  6'2''  i would recommend  a  bach 36 trad  wrap
   or if he is  careful  and not  a  klutz  a 36 open wrap--they  arent  as  big overall  as the
  conn  88    and especially   getzens which  are  full  size for sure
   he  will probably  be headed   for  first  chair  
------------
  IF  HE   GOES  BIG BORE //why  not  BASS  TROMBONE  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????
-------------
  cash  flow can be  a factor -
-------------
  the  best  thing  about   putting  a kid  on  a  547 really  early 
  is  when they  rediscover  the small  bore !!!!!!! a small  bore  pro model 
------------------------
   if  you  decide  to go  big  //THINK ABOUT  A REAL CLASSIC =ELKHART 88H !!!!!!!  OH YEAH
-----------
 ST  LOUIS  STUDENT  OF ST LOUIS PHIL TEAACHER --HA  HA   PICKED A CLASSIC MOUNT VERNON MODEL 6  !!!!!!!!
   EAT THAT  BIG  BOREBOYZ !!!
 
  a couple  of years  ago  a couple  of scott air force bandsmen   came to the  studio
to  pick out  a trombone  for the  daughter  /maybe a freshman/or 8th grade  /
 well  i had  a really  great  gold  brass  bell  42 at the  time  and i knew  they would try
 to steer  her towards  it ---so  having a ''few'' trombones  about  began to  hand her trombones  to
 try ---well she could easily  play  the   ''student  '' size horns  and the bigger  ones  well
////// so i had  her  //OK KID  LETS  HEAR YOU  OPEN IT  UP  !!!!  AS  LOUD AS YOU CAN  BLOW//
 it was  pretty funny   because  the guys  really  got it after that  //TOO  BIG  //
   she  really  loved   this older  bach  36b  and  is still  playing  it  !!!!!
---------------
  other pro 525 b/f  like  yamaha 646/684  i have  had  and  now  have two here  
but unless the  yamahas  are in very newish  cond  --forget it
-------------------
  pro king model 2125  525/b/f  3B+/F    another  student  with  teacher  try out  again picked  a bach 36bo
     over the  well regarded   king  --which  leans  more toward  jazz
------------------------
  mike  egan  got  two   duo  bore  getzen     for  his  middle schooler  students
   the  have  8 1/2  bells  and  full  w i d e  slides
---------------------
 mouthpieces  --whatever  works  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  i have  used  6 1/2  as  a base  mpc    and can go bigger
 easier than going smaller  --and really  liked   a  bach  4   w  an lt 36g  !!!!!  
--------------------
  so right  now  your son  is at the  goldilocks decision !!!!!!!!
i would get one  now  the  is  the best  fit  right  size  
  ------------
if   i had him over  here  it  would  be pretty  easy  for  him  to fall in luv  w a  quality  trombone
  or  more than likely  a bunch  of bones !!!!!!!!!!!
  thanks  for supporting  him  !!!!!!!!!!



Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 22, 2017, 06:17PMI am am looking for some help.  My son (6th grade) has been playing the trombone for 3 years now.  At the beginning of this school year, at the encouragement of his school band teacher, he also picked up the Euphonium.  He plays both instruments with the Schilke 51D mouthpiece. (Medium deep bore / 25.55mm inner diameter.)  He is planning to give up the Euphonium at the end of the school year and concentrate on the trombone.  Only problem is that his student Euphonium makes his student trombone (Bach 301) sound like junk; and he really wants a trombone that sounds better.  Most of what I have read online is that after a couple of years of playing the trombone, it is time to upgrade......but it is also clear that most kids don't hit the 2 to 3 year mark until high school.

......so I am wondering what to do next. Mom and dad are ready to get him a new instrument to help keep him motivated.  We think he has earned it.  (He even practices every day with minimal prodding).  It is also true that purchasing an upgraded trombone for him will be cheaper than finishing up the last 2 years of rental payments on the Euphonium.

The general consensus I have read is that one shouldn't waste their money on a intermediate trombone....they should simply skip to a pro-trombone.

My questions is whether a pro-trombone is the right thing for a 12 year old?  Will it cause lung/breathing problems?  It is a mistake?  Is an intermediate horn (0.525 bore) a much better decision?

With that said, we have been to a variety of music shops and my son loves the sounds he can get out of some pro horns.  He is thrilled at how much more stable the high notes are.  (Almost no one stocks intermediate horns....so the stores keep giving him 0.547s to play - and calling them intermediates).  His favorite so far have been the  Conn 88HO, Vintage Conn 88H and Getzen 547 Capri.  He has tried the Bach 42BO and Bach 42B and isn't so crazy about the tone quality, and he thinks they take too much air.  He has played the Getson 725 dual bore, and the sound is better than his current, but not as good as the first three horns I mentioned.    Tried a Bach TBSLO310 (Soloist) and didn't like the sound.  Tried an Eastman MTB 232G (private label), which had the same tone quality as his current instrument....at three times the price.

Other notes:  Son just got invited to play in the All-City Honor Band for Euphonium.  He is the strongest in the low brass section of his school - albeit a small school.  His private teacher's assessment is that he plays at the high school level.  Just did a Solo Festival with John Williams' "Hedwig's Theme." - an arrangement...not the original score.

You are probably wondering why we don't just ask his private teacher.  Great question!  His private teacher is very talented, is playing with the local professional symphony, but he is very young and his primary instrument is the Tuba.....He admittedly doesn't know trombone brands well, even though he can play them just fine.

Thank you for any help and guidance

DJ - So we had a lead on a 1968  88H.  When he played it, his face lit up.  He hasn't smiled that much playing any other instrument....but mom and dad are concerned that it is too big for him.....so we are still asking around.  I appreciate everyones insight.  Will talk with you about your inventory separately.

I'm not so concerned about the size of the 88H.  I'm more concerned about the fact that an Elkhart Conn is a treasured instrument and while your son may be careful about using it, his compatriots may not.   Middle School is a rough time for a musical instrument.  It may see a bunch of bangs and dings that it wasn't made to handle.

You might want to see if DJ has the Yamaha copy of the 88H, the 643.  It's a little gutsier than the Conn and might take the abuse better.  If you want to get him the Conn, maybe keep it in reserve and have him use a more "disposable" instrument in school.

Flame away on me that's ok.  If a kid can start on tuba or a euphonium a kid can start on a .547 bore trombone.  I have started beginners on .547 bore trombones for 30 plus years as a band director.  Teach them how to breath, set an embouchure, and start a note the correct way with the tongue it works.  Also, have used a 5g or similar sized mouthpiece to start them on.  Again, if a you can start a kid on a tuba mouthpiece, they can start on a .547 trombone with 5g type mouthpiece it they are taught to hold it correctly, breath correctly, form/set an embouchure correctly and tongue start a note it works.  

Get your son the 88h he likes.  He is taking lessons, it will be fine.  

Bruce, the Yamaha 543 its discontinued, I know it can be found used like the Benge's you love.  However, sometimes they are difficult to find and it is always better for kid/family to play the instrument in this situation to know they really like the feel and sound of the the horn. 

To me any instrument should be treated as a treasure whether it is a a vintage Conn/Bach/Holton/etc. or a new one.  I agree that if they were to get the Elkhart 88h that it would be wise to get something like the Mack Brass, Wessex large bore, or one by Tempest Music Instruments out of San Antonio or a used Blessing 88/something similar for marching band/parades.

1968  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=====================================================================================================
  oh  yeah  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a great  choice  !!!!!!!!!!!!!
===============
 they  are  classics !!!!!  AND NOTHING  NEW  HAS THE  SAME feeling
================
i  just  sold[one shipped]  out  TWO [trade and ''E ''SERIES@2200 TO BRAZIL] !!!!!!!! a fabulous ''E''
   well  there are the  stories  --my  dad bought me  this new in 19xx  etc
     one  still here  EASTMAN --STUDENT OF  REMINGTON HISTORY
-------------
 i had  6 and  have  a 1/2  a one  partnering  with greg waits  in dallas 
   it will not  be as  pricy  as something like  the  mint  conndition ''L'' SERIES @2900
  case  was latches crashes  so we  bought a new  protec  maxx  and  i  sent greg  a new slide  crook
for  collector  types  original case  and  unrestored  or repaired  can be important
  and command the  highest  value //the  one  in dallas isnt  a wallet  buster !!!!!!!
----------------
 so if  your  son would  like  one NO PROBLEM  ! funny  how i suggested  it
-------========================
 not  trying  to beat  up  547 recommenders ///BUT .........
==================================
  a  lot  of  older players  //returning players  go for  the 36  and the BD  dont  notice  the diff
personally  i  like the 547s  went  back  to an old old  favorite [my  martino ] last summer ==playing  3rd  in city band --slide  isnt the  best  but its  beautiful  w big flowers  engraved on a 9 in thin red flare
  my  favorite  88h  ever  is the ''SUPERBOWL ''what  a  history  !!!!
-----------------
 

 



Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 10:31AMDJ - So we had a lead on a 1968  88H.  When he played it, his face lit up.  He hasn't smiled that much playing any other instrument....but mom and dad are concerned that it is too big for him.....so we are still asking around.  I appreciate everyones insight.  Will talk with you about your inventory separately.

Bruce, I cannot understand why you call the Elkhart Conn 88H light.... I could sit you next to quite a few players using 88H's who could monster anybody out of the way.
Out of fashion in the US perhaps... but not light.

Chris Stearn

Maybe a Schilke 51?

Quote from: blast on Apr 23, 2017, 02:11PMBruce, I cannot understand why you call the Elkhart Conn 88H light.... I could sit you next to quite a few players using 88H's who could monster anybody out of the way.
Out of fashion in the US perhaps... but not light.

Chris Stearn
Light compared to a Bach 42.

Actually the King 4B-F is "lighter" than the Conn.

I don't want to get into a pi**ing contest on what's better.  The kid seemed to like the Conn and under ideal conditions it would be a great match.  I just worry about bringing it into a school situation with 13 year olds.

The parents are worried too.

i  picked  out  a  very serious ''E''SERIES     for MARK MULLEY--PRINCIPLE ON MINAS GIRAS PO
 no  ring ding  and  holds together  under the  most intense blasting !!!!!!!!!!!!
 OK  SOME  DONT !!!!!  THEY  ARE  THE THINNIES !!!!!!!



Quote from: blast on Apr 23, 2017, 02:11PMBruce, I cannot understand why you call the Elkhart Conn 88H light.... I could sit you next to quite a few players using 88H's who could monster anybody out of the way.
Out of fashion in the US perhaps... but not light.

Chris Stearn

not  to worry  !!!!!!!a  cheepo  blessing   '' clone '' way  under 500 !!!!!!!!!
-------------------
  AN  ELKIE  !!!!!!!!!!!!  YIPPEE  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
---------
the  son has it  !!!!!!!
--------waddaboudit   JOHN THOMAS  !!!!!!!!!!




Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 02:28PMThe parents are worried too.

To kids "vintage" just means "old".

I would stick with a .525-bore horn.  It is more likely to work out.  Yes, a .547-bore can work for some kids, I am sure.  But you should play the odds and get good, middle-of-the-road equipment.  Many good medium-bore horns recommended above.  I think the Yamahas would be a particularly good choice.  The 446 is great.  The 640, 646 (older), and 684, too, but they are harder to find.  Mouthpieces?  Schilke 51, 51B, Bach 6.5AL, Bach 5G, etc.  Medium to big is okay.  51D?  No.  IMO.


Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 02:28PMThe parents are worried too.

There is your answer...

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 04:47AM
1)  My son is playing a Schilke 51D Small shank for his 0.500 bore student trombone.  We would expect to change mouthpieces on a .547.  Not sure if we would change for a 0.525.
2)  We will likely buy him a used instrument. We plan to play before we purchase.....unless the instrument is returnable.

DJ....do you have any recommendations.  We are in the market....


First off, Skype with Doug Elliott. Get him fitted for a big boy mouthpiece. Next, giving a growing boy a larger trombone means a hand brace and a heavy duty case with shoulder straps. I'm a big guy with a strong grip, euphonium & bass bone player. I had a CT release 16 years ago. I had a school horn and a home horn, didn't take the Hirsbrunner to HS until junior year.

Why I like Doug,  is that he makes shanks for vintage horns, plus the mouthpiece is equally important when moving up to a more suitable horn. Hand stress develops over time and hurts really bad after 30. A 51D was what I had 30 years go, and I made it work, still have several.

Took me about 2 years of mowing grass to pay off the horn. I hate hedge trimming....

Looks like you need a Doug & DJ love child.....

The reason I would consider a .525 is that you can play it in nearly any situation. A .547, not so much. Think of all the discussion over the years about using a .547 to play lead. For a kid, it'll get you through jazz band, concert band, student orchestra, even marching band. Didn't Jimmy Knepper and Barry Rogers play Bach 36s? Ostrander's 78H. Mosca's 79H. Sauer's .525/.547 Shires (and before that a .525 slide on a cut-down 88H I think).

And even if size were important to some hs band director, it's 99.9% likely that he/she wouldn't/couldn't tell the difference anyway.
...

As for Doug Elliott - and I have tremendous respect for Doug and use his stuff to move between my alto, my .508, .525 and my .547 - dropping $200 on a mpc for a 12-year seems completely ludicrous. My opinion. YMMV.

There is nothing unprofessional about a medium bore trombone, for example, the Bach 36B!  Its a good all-round horn that will definitely get you through any genre band!

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 03:30PMAs for Doug Elliott - and I have tremendous respect for Doug and use his stuff to move between my alto, my .508, .525 and my .547 - dropping $200 on a mpc for a 12-year seems completely ludicrous. My opinion. YMMV.

I said Skype him and get him fitted. I'm sure that may involve a lesson, Doug also knows a lot about vintage horns and the mouthpieces for them. It's my opinion. I see 12 yr olds with iPhones/iPads/Beats. So your point is?

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 02:51PMTo kids "vintage" just means "old".

You guys are great, but you have to understand that my son's preference is not to have a shiny instrument.  He'd actually want to get the lacquer removed.  He has it in his head that a lacquer free horn has a more mellow sound - which is true, isn't it.   Have a Brass Band in our home town, and they are pretty good.  When Wycliffe Gordon is soloing, my kid goes nuts.  Even listens to Gordon on Apple Radio. 

No need for any additional comments on mouthpieces.....he's gonna get a new one.  When we decide on the horn, we can continue the mouthpiece conversation.

Quote from: schlitzbeer on Apr 23, 2017, 03:51PM"...I see 12 yr olds with iPhones/iPads/Beats..."

You're saying that's a good thing? 12-year olds with $300 Beats headphones?

Ok. I mean, I'm a dinosaur. What do I know about these things?

But a discussion about whether a 12-year old should be playing on a ST/MT/LT/XT100/101/102/103 rim with a medium/medium deep/deep cup seems, uh, premature. That's my point.

But that's my opinion.

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:08PM
But a discussion about whether a 12-year old should be playing on a 100/101/102/103 rim with a medium/medium deep/deep cup seems, uh, premature.

But that's my opinion.

Look what the dad just wrote. The kid is doing his homework. The kid is thinking like an advanced student, plays like one. And bless him, he'll continue the mouthpiece conversation AFTER they've bought the horn. I'll leave it to the 1uppers.

Well, you wouldn't buy a new mouthpiece before you bought the horn would you?

Right now the kid has tried a couple of large bore pro horns and some rather small bore less than pro horns.  He might like a Bach 36 or Conn 79H (or not).  But he has tried the 88H and likes it.

I like the idea of a $500 Blessing B88 to use at school.  Something that will see the bad side and take the knocks for the good horn.  The good horn can be used for practicing, lessons, and concerts.  If he's careful with it, the Conn could see him through college.  Even if he majors in music.

"When he played it, his face lit up."

'Nuff said.

Mark Fellows is killing me these days.

 
  YEAH  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=======================================================

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:43PM"When he played it, his face lit up."===========================================================================
===================
Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:43PM'Nuff said.====================
 LIKE  IF  the  son  was into  urbie  and tommy  ---then tried  an oldie  2b  !!!!!
Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:43PMMark Fellows is killing me these days.

<Edit: Fixed Quote>

About 3 or 4 years ago, a 12 year old showed up to a local community band with an HN White King 2B Silversonic - the nice one with the gold wash bell. We drooled, we tried it; it was the real deal. $3200 USD on their website.

We all cringed more than the kid as he accidentally whacked the slide a few times into a music stand.

My advice is to buy wisely and thriftily until motor control catches up to his ability. Teenagers, even conscientious ones, are not strong or coordinated enough to warrant an expensive instrument. It's you money. Good luck.

Quote from: Torobone on Apr 23, 2017, 07:20PMWe all cringed more than the kid as he accidentally whacked the slide a few times into a music stand.

My advice is to buy wisely and thriftily until motor control catches up to his ability. Teenagers, even conscientious ones, are not strong or coordinated enough to warrant an expensive instrument. It's you money. Good luck.



They're going to have to learn sometime. Spending on a trombone is chump change compared to some string instruments. Dan Oberloh could send you some pictures of what an adult child could do to an instrument. Nothing like a MS choir concert. 2 glasses of wine before leaving (spouse driving), earplugs.......... He's going to be old enough to drive in 4 yrs. I was running a 16 hp Bolens tractor with a 3 blade deck at his age.

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 23, 2017, 04:29PMRight now the kid has tried a couple of large bore pro horns and some rather small bore less than pro horns.  He might like a Bach 36 or Conn 79H (or not).  But he has tried the 88H and likes it.

I like the idea of a $500 Blessing B88 to use at school.  Something that will see the bad side and take the knocks for the good horn.  The good horn can be used for practicing, lessons, and concerts.  If he's careful with it, the Conn could see him through college.  Even if he majors in music.
This is sage advice.  Buy him the lovely 88H for practice at home and his future needs, also buy him an B88 to take to school. As I read through the tread this exact formula was manifesting itself in my mind, but Bruce put it in words before I had a chance.

The B88 is a great and tough copy of the Conn 88H, and until very recently was also made in Elkhart.  It is 100% fine for use in high school let alone grade school.  The Conn  he could use through university and into this professional career if that is what he eventually chooses.

Quote from: schlitzbeer on Apr 23, 2017, 09:07PMThey're going to have to learn sometime. Spending on a trombone is chump change compared to some string instruments. Dan Oberloh could send you some pictures of what an adult child could do to an instrument. Nothing like a MS choir concert. 2 glasses of wine before leaving (spouse driving), earplugs.......... He's going to be old enough to drive in 4 yrs. I was running a 16 hp Bolens tractor with a 3 blade deck at his age.
Yeah, but that's no reasoning to justify the demise of a spectacular instrument that is no longer made.  Also, it's not necessarily him that is the concern, but rather some of the other 12 YOs in the band that have no respect for ... well ... anything.

Quote from: BillO on Apr 23, 2017, 10:00PMYeah, but that's no reasoning to justify the demise of a spectacular instrument that is no longer made.  Also, it's not necessarily him that is the concern, but rather some of the other 12 YOs in the band that have no respect for ... well ... anything.

Lots of things are destroyed by people everyday, of all ages. I also stated I had a school horn and a home horn. WHERE did I say he should have it around other 12 yr olds?  What's the cost of a decent string instrument , bow, case, and accessories for a MS strings student? He's playing at HS level now on a euphonium, according to his teacher. Do we start kids on tuba mouthpieces? I like what Bruce has said on the Blessing. Each kid is going to develop at a different pace.

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 04:00PMYou guys are great, but you have to understand that my son's preference is not to have a shiny instrument.  He'd actually want to get the lacquer removed.  He has it in his head that a lacquer free horn has a more mellow sound - which is true, isn't it.   Have a Brass Band in our home town, and they are pretty good.  When Wycliffe Gordon is soloing, my kid goes nuts.  Even listens to Gordon on Apple Radio. 

No need for any additional comments on mouthpieces.....he's gonna get a new one.  When we decide on the horn, we can continue the mouthpiece conversation.

You don't strip the lacquer on vintage Conns... that is part of how they play. You can strip a Bach if you want. Lacquer saves a lot of cleaning.

Chris Stearn

1)  I'm no expert in stripping lacquer.  My point being that my son has not had a strong affinity for shiny new.  He wants something that has great sound.

2)  No need to worry about whether we are going to spend $3,000 on a new horn.  That isn't in the budget.  We can get a new Yamaha 446G for just under $2,000.....so that is the upper limit on the budget.   Will likely spend significantly less than that.

3)  Bill You are right.  Strings are more expensive.  Even Euphoniums are nearly twice the price as trombones.  Dad counts himself lucky for being in the trombone forum rather than the Euphonium or Tuba forum.

 

well  i think   i have THE  ANSWER  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----------------------525  b /f     not  too eexpensive
 responsive  older looking  --conn
=============
 
the  fabulous  CONN  50H  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 OR  THE  COOLEST EVER VARIANT 
  RED  BELL   NICKLE  SLIDE BOW   model  75h   maybe 
  got one  here  and  its   FUNKY     ---only  napping  dream states  can  come up with
     these  ideal solutions
--------
started  thinking  50h 50h  ---HEY WAIT A MINUTE   --WATTABOUT  THAT  WEIRD  ONE   ?????!!!!!!!
----------------
AARON  IS COMING  SOON TO PICK  UP  TWO ELKHART 88H      ''E''  AND  ''H''
  oh yeah his  sons  just happen to be named  ELMO    AND HANK
  [[[[[[[[[[
 

well   everybody   has  forgotten  the  good ol  50h
  i have had a  couple 
they  play   muchlike   a  6h  loook  like a mini  71h
 -------
 bigger   but not massive  ...conn  character  all the way  !!!!!!!!
---------
  sometime  last year  i  got  a variant  [not the  first time]   
gotta  be abilene  from  the  mystery   period  twilight  zoone 
the  straight  version  i think  was the 76h  CENTURY
----------------------
 i looked   for model number when it came  in   --but  was  elusive  -
 so  i think  i am sending it  in  to aaron  maybe  w the  REYNOLDS HI-FI   !!!!!

..........so I tell my kid we are thinking about road tripping to St. Louis.  He asked, "Why?"  I said that there was a shop there which specialized in used trombones.  "They have a bunch you can test out.  There are only a couple like it in the country."

"Oh, is it DJ Kennedy?"............out of babes mouths.......

 

He's all in!

Yes, even he knows "The Man" from the TromboneForum.

Enjoy the trip and the experience. Trombone shopping with a purchase in mind is so much fun.