TromboneChat

If a moderator reads this: Maybe the post could be moved to "Performance" instead to get a little more attention

Hello

I have two C-trombones, one in silver an one in brass. I picked up the one in brass and got the slide working and started to experiment a little. It is from 1924 and the bore size is .458. The tiny bell is only 6,5". It is a very small trombone. I decided to record something just as to provide an example of what this horn sounds like.
The upper register is good with a Bach 12E and makes it blow very alto like, but since this piece is rather low. The lowest is   and the 12E does not speak very well down there for me, I decided to use my Bach 6 3/4C mouthpiece instead.   

Here is the clip https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724/prelude-by-angelico-corelli-played-on-a-conn-1924-c-trombone

/Tom

Hello

Last time I did a recording and put it on sound cloude I got lots of help from here which really improved the recording, and made me WORK HARD. 

This time it was very quiet. Maybe a C-trombone does not tickle as much 

In any case it seams not many have read the post.

I decided to put some more work into the C-Trombone recording and now I hope to get some help from you (Svenne, Savio, Sabutin and Chris and others)

The tune is "Preludio" from Violin Sonata in F Major by Arcangelo Corelli (1653-1713) and it is from a book with various solos with Piano Accompangiement Selected and edited by Henry C. Smith. The piano accompaniement is on a cd.

Don't take into consideration it is a C-Trombone. The slide is good and the horn resonates which means I think it is usable. It is not worse than my other horns.

Please comment, and do you think the C-trombone could be used instead of an alto?

/Tom

Hei Tom, thanks for the clip! Interesting trombone, it even have a trigger. Tuned to G? Im not the right one to tell if you can use it as an alto but I suppose you can with a small mouthpiece. To me it sounded nice and with good intonation, but more like a regular trombone than an alto. My god, you have many interesting trombones!

Leif

Sounds very horn-like to me, not sure if it is about the playing or the trombone itself. Only some articulations and maybe the low register notes give awa the fact that it is not a horn of some kind.

The trigger looks like a trill-valve.  Is it a half-step?

It's definitely a smaller sound, but I don't remember what you sounded like on other recordings, so I can't easily compare.

I also though your pitch was very, very good!

Quote from: savio on Apr 18, 2017, 05:57AMHei Tom, thanks for the clip! Interesting trombone, it even have a trigger. Tuned to G? Im not the right one to tell if you can use it as an alto but I suppose you can with a small mouthpiece. To me it sounded nice and with good intonation, but more like a regular trombone than an alto. My god, you have many interesting trombones!

Leif

Thank you for your comment, Leif. The trombone is tuned in C and the valve lowers a whole tone, so when turned it is not in G but in Bb.

I do have many interesting trombones. Most bought on ebay from april 2013 to june 2014 at a time when the dollar, euro and pound  was rather cheap (for a Swede).

Since then the dollar has raised by 30% and both the pound and euro has followed. For me this means I don't buy any more instruments on ebay, I only regret one Holton 169 I could not win. I wantedc to bid more but could not at the moment, because I had no more money at my account. I contacted the sellers and explained that I could raise my bid if they just could wait a couple of days with the payment, just for me to get my salary, but they said no. That meant I had to let that one go. It was close. Today I could not afford such a beast. Obvious question: Why do I need one? I don't, that's the truth. Can't explain. It's just the love and passion I have for these instruments 

More comments on my playing? Advice are welcome as long as they are meant to help

/Tom

I think I commented on your last one, so in case it's helpful here goes again 

Lot of good things there! Well done! Lovely sound and I agree with above comments your pitch was mostly quite good.

To my ear, the only places your pitch suffered was as you went lower... whenever you played notes towards the bottom register of this piece the pitch went quite sharp. Really make sure you get all the way down there.

If I remember correctly, I think last time I mentioned that you could pay a bit more attention to ensuring a smoother and more even legato? This recording was much better than I remember the last one being, however there were still a few too many instances where it just sounded like you didn't blow all the way through between some of the notes.... most noticable was of course when you had a slur over a larger interval. Really make sure your air is still blowing at your lips all the way through the slur as well as moving your slide quickly and precisely.
The last thing that jumped out to me is a general comment that was apparent throughout, personally I could have done with much more diction and precision in your attacks. I do not mean accents on every note of course, but whenever you articulated, it sounded like you were afraid of the beginning of the note. A few instances sounded as though you would attack, and then quickly "grow" into the note, giving it a bulge effect which I dont think is desirable.

Loved your trills! Where they lip or with that tiny valve?

As I said lots of great sounds in there I enjoyed listening to it! Hope you can take something away from my comments.

I was thinking about the trills too, they sounded REALLY clean and accurate, Tom. Well-played!
The horn itself to me sounds a bit like a silver-plated small bore Bb horn, from my experience with silver horns. At the very least, the silver-plated trumpets I've played tend to be not necessarily more bright, but sort of have more presence, maybe.

Just my experience!

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 18, 2017, 06:30AMSounds very horn-like to me, not sure if it is about the playing or the trombone itself. Only some articulations and maybe the low register notes give awa the fact that it is not a horn of some kind.

Thank you for your comment. Yes, it is a horn-like sound. When I first recorded I noticed I blew too much air through the horn. When I cut the nuances down and was playing only p, mp and possibly mf the sound is more mellow. I too can hear the similarities with a horn. It could be the air needs to get pass one valve or it is because the bore size is more equal to a modern trumpet.

Quote from: Sliphorn on Apr 18, 2017, 07:25AMThe trigger looks like a trill-valve.  Is it a half-step?

Thank you for your comment. The trigger is not a trill-valve it is like a switch. Either you leave it tuned in C or in Bb and for this you need both your thumb and forefinger. It is not designed to be turned while playing. It could be rebuilt to do this but I find no point in this, besides to read music. The horn speaks better in C, in Bb it does not blow very open. In Bb you can read the music as usual but in C you have to read the music a whole tone down, and to this add two flats. A piece in Bb then can be read as a piece in Ab and a piece in G is like a piece in F when it comes to where positions are.   


Quote from: Sliphorn on Apr 18, 2017, 07:25AMIt's definitely a smaller sound, but I don't remember what you sounded like on other recordings, so I can't easily compare.

I also though your pitch was very, very good!


The sound is smaller, being a .458 horn with a 6.5" bell. To compare there is another song at sound cloude where I play my Conn 88H.

I worked a lot at the pitch and I am getting closer. It is the first and last problem when I switch. On this horn most of the difference is in the bell section where it is about a "tuning slide" shorter than a regular .500 horn, and the slide is aproxamately 10 cm shorter than a normal slide.

/Tom

Tom, you wouldn't mind posting a couple more photos here?

Hi Tom,

What mic were you using. Sounds a bit like you were a fair distance from it?

Very nice control of the instrument. Performance wise it sounded very "careful". I'd suggesting memorize a few sections (4/8 bars). Picture an opera singer pouring out their heart as you play .  In a recording compare how they sound to the ones that you're reading.

Rob

Quote from: davdud101 on Apr 19, 2017, 07:58AMTom, you wouldn't mind posting a couple more photos here?




Hope you can get the information from this sole picture. The larger trombone is a Conn 88H.

/Tom

I moved this to Performance as you requested.  Really sounds nice.

A trombone with this small a bore is actually smaller  than most alto trombones.  Howard Weiner reported that a small bore trombone was used as an alto in many parts of Europe, so I guess you could use it as an alto.

The Henry Charles Smith book (Solos for the Trombone Player) has some nice stuff.  You apparently have the Music Minus One version (I have one with sheet music piano accompaniment).  I think I put some trills in a couple of spots after I listened to a cellist play it.  It does feel like it needs some more ornamentation.

That "Preacher Trombone" is also the same size as the instrument Arthur Pryor used to use.  You ought to try a couple of his solos on it.

I can't connect to the link:

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Interesting.  When I try to open the image in another window it says to click to download image.  This is on Chrome.

Quote from: BillO on Apr 19, 2017, 05:40PMI can't connect to the link:


I hope I solved it. The picture showed in the browser when I was on my computer but not on my mobile phone. I corrected an error in the link.

Hope that fixed everything.

/Tom

Image?  I just clicked on the link you provided.  Now it works just fine.  Perhaps the site was down. 

In any case ... I find the piece itself not all that interesting, but your rendition of it is very well executed.   You know your way around the instrument.  The only derogatory comment that I might have on your style is that, in some places the notes seem a little too separated and the articulations a little too 'precise' or 'clean'.  This only comes from my listening to pieces of similar age being played on 'period' replicas by those who feel they are proficient at playing things they have never heard being played by the original players.

As for the sound, that trombone sounds just like my Conn 2H.  Being of the same bore, age and general construct (except no valve) that is not too surprising.  It certainly seems to suit the piece in timber even tough it's built some 300 years later.  Although we don't have recordings from Corelli's era of trombonists playing this piece to do a real comparison.  I'm sure some sackbut players would have other comments.

Like the Conn 2H, it sounds more like an modern alto than a modern tenor.  I'd say, if you can deal with the high range on it in a manner that simulates an alto, it would make a good substitute.  This piece does not really get right up into the the upper alto range, but if you can deal with the tightening partials to do so then it is a better choice than a modern tenor for the task.  However, if you really want to play 17th century alto works you might want to look into an good alto sackbut replica.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Apr 18, 2017, 02:18PMI think I commented on your last one, so in case it's helpful here goes again 

Lot of good things there! Well done! Lovely sound and I agree with above comments your pitch was mostly quite good.

To my ear, the only places your pitch suffered was as you went lower... whenever you played notes towards the bottom register of this piece the pitch went quite sharp. Really make sure you get all the way down there.

I can nothing but agree. The lower register got better with the 6 3/4C than when I played it with the 12E but it needs more work.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Apr 18, 2017, 02:18PMIf I remember correctly, I think last time I mentioned that you could pay a bit more attention to ensuring a smoother and more even legato? This recording was much better than I remember the last one being, however there were still a few too many instances where it just sounded like you didn't blow all the way through between some of the notes.... most noticable was of course when you had a slur over a larger interval. Really make sure your air is still blowing at your lips all the way through the slur as well as moving your slide quickly and precisely.

The legato playing is something that I work on. I need to be quicker with the slide and "hide" the tongue. Yes, needs to blow through the phrases more. I noticed this trombone sounds at its best in softer nuances, but a soft nuance needs even more air control.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Apr 18, 2017, 02:18PMThe last thing that jumped out to me is a general comment that was apparent throughout, personally I could have done with much more diction and precision in your attacks. I do not mean accents on every note of course, but whenever you articulated, it sounded like you were afraid of the beginning of the note. A few instances sounded as though you would attack, and then quickly "grow" into the note, giving it a bulge effect which I dont think is desirable.

Loved your trills! Where they lip or with that tiny valve?

As I said lots of great sounds in there I enjoyed listening to it! Hope you can take something away from my comments.

I'm not holding back the attacks deliberately, but of course when playing this soft, articulation also is more demanding. It is very rewarding to play soft. I learn a lot from it. Articulation needs more work.

The bulge effect. I guess this means my sound does not come instantly, as Doug mentioned when he commented my previous recordings. I know this has to do with my tongue is a bit slow. I don't get to the full sound quick enough.

The trills are lip trills. In the trills you can hear it is a smaller instrument.

Thank you for the comments. You really listened. It is very valuable. I do hear the problem pointed.

/Tom

Hi Tom. I hear to much tongue, in the begining and often the end of tones. Pratice more air attacks, the toungue should never be necceary to start a tone, it just make the articualtion more clear, smoth i this music. Also practise ending tones' just stopping the air. Without collapsing the embouchure. Six tones. Just like some hornplayers you start the phrases soft a little weak, and with a crescendo, I guess you like it the way, well, are you sure about that? May it is because of the small bore that you are a bit unfamilar with? The sound can be more open I think. This romantic music could use a little vibrato In my oppinion, try it with a small jaw vibrato. In the last part of the longer tones.(Well it is called lip vibrato, it isn´t really, as the lip trills are not really lip trills either.) Sometimes your attack is a tad early, listen to that in the first take.

Wery nice playing Tom, you do play the music with much respect (maybe to much?) good in tune, you do make a good job of matching the prerecorded keyboard, you know the music well, the recording sounds good.

Well done!

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 19, 2017, 04:52PMI moved this to Performance as you requested.  Really sounds nice.

Thank you, Bruce  Sometimes it is difficult to decide where to post. This could go to "performance", "instruments" as well as "practice room" because it is all of it.

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 19, 2017, 04:52PM
A trombone with this small a bore is actually smaller  than most alto trombones.  Howard Weiner reported that a small bore trombone was used as an alto in many parts of Europe, so I guess you could use it as an alto.

The Henry Charles Smith book (Solos for the Trombone Player) has some nice stuff.  You apparently have the Music Minus One version (I have one with sheet music piano accompaniment).  I think I put some trills in a couple of spots after I listened to a cellist play it.  It does feel like it needs some more ornamentation.

That "Preacher Trombone" is also the same size as the instrument Arthur Pryor used to use.  You ought to try a couple of his solos on it.

Yes, you are right it could be more interesting with some ornaments. That would be stylistically correct. Improvisations in the baroque idiom. I'm not sure now if the trills are right. I hear I'm starting on the note and trill up to next note. It could be done differently. I could start at the higer note instead. It might sound more interesting and maybe that also is more in the style.

/Tom

Quote from: robbo on Apr 19, 2017, 02:38PMHi Tom,

What mic were you using. Sounds a bit like you were a fair distance from it?

Very nice control of the instrument. Performance wise it sounded very "careful". I'd suggesting memorize a few sections (4/8 bars). Picture an opera singer pouring out their heart as you play .  In a recording compare how they sound to the ones that you're reading.

Rob

The microphone is a Nauman U87 Ai and the distance is about 70 cm from an angle above. I tried not to play straight at the mic.

Quote from: BillO on Apr 19, 2017, 11:42PM--snip--

In any case ... I find the piece itself not all that interesting, but your rendition of it is very well executed.   You know your way around the instrument.  The only derogatory comment that I might have on your style is that, in some places the notes seem a little too separated and the articulations a little too 'precise' or 'clean'.  This only comes from my listening to pieces of similar age being played on 'period' replicas by those who feel they are proficient at playing things they have never heard being played by the original players.

The interpretation of the piece is absolutely something I would like to discuss. I often hear baroque music as having a lot of micro dynamics and accented small motifs. There can of course be exceptions from this with long phrases with spinning lines of sixteens that expands over several staffs like in some music of Bach and Haendel, where the music just goes on and on, but still its built on small motifs found elsewhere in the music. In the Corelli piece I deliberately separated the first tree notes, as an accented motif. The three notes comes near the end again but then as an ascending line. I tried to play them the same. I did think trough the articulation in the whole piece this way, but wish my intentions could be heard better.  I'm open to any suggestion to make changes of course  The total opposite from the Corelli piece is the romantic piece by G. Faure, also on sound cloude. That piece is more about long lines and to play as evenly as possible, not as much micro dynamics and accented motifs. It could be better legato in there, but I did my best     


Quote from: BillO on Apr 19, 2017, 11:42PMAs for the sound, that trombone sounds just like my Conn 2H.  Being of the same bore, age and general construct (except no valve) that is not too surprising.  It certainly seems to suit the piece in timber even tough it's built some 300 years later.  Although we don't have recordings from Corelli's era of trombonists playing this piece to do a real comparison.  I'm sure some sackbut players would have other comments.

I would love to hear comments from sackbut players.

Quote from: BillO on Apr 19, 2017, 11:42PMLike the Conn 2H, it sounds more like an modern alto than a modern tenor.  I'd say, if you can deal with the high range on it in a manner that simulates an alto, it would make a good substitute.  This piece does not really get right up into the the upper alto range, but if you can deal with the tightening partials to do so then it is a better choice than a modern tenor for the task.  However, if you really want to play 17th century alto works you might want to look into an good alto sackbut replica.

The good thing with it as a C-Trombone is it is very easy to play in alto-clef. This note  is in third position on the C-Trombone, the same as (8:va basso)  (non transposing C-part on your Bb-Trombone). This means you can just pretend it is in Treable-clef C and the positions are the same as if you where playing Treable-clef on your Bb Trombone. You have to add to flats. That is the beginning of a a D-major scale #   translates to C-major    having the positions 3, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2 and so on. In this case the adding of two flats have the effect of removing the two sharps in D-major. Hope you understand my explanation here.

/Tom

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 20, 2017, 07:17AMHi Tom. I hear to much tongue, in the begining and often the end of tones. Pratice more air attacks, the toungue should never be necceary to start a tone, it just make the articualtion more clear, smoth i this music. Also practise ending tones' just stopping the air. Without collapsing the embouchure. Six tones.

Yes, you say the same as other have said but in other words. I do hear my tongue in the ending of some notes now when you mention it. Thank you for telling me. Yes, Caruso "six tones" are good. I played that four weeks in the summer vacation two years ago and it helped me that summer. Should do it again. I forget.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 20, 2017, 07:17AMJust like some hornplayers you start the phrases soft a little weak, and with a crescendo, I guess you like it the way, well, are you sure about that? May it is because of the small bore that you are a bit unfamilar with?

Maybe the start of the tone is why it sounds a lot like a french horn. I can hear that now when pointed at.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 20, 2017, 07:17AMThe sound can be more open I think. This romantic music could use a little vibrato In my oppinion, try it with a small jaw vibrato. In the last part of the longer tones.(Well it is called lip vibrato, it isn´t really, as the lip trills are not really lip trills either.) Sometimes your attack is a tad early, listen to that in the first take.

Wery nice playing Tom, you do play the music with much respect (maybe to much?) good in tune, you do make a good job of matching the prerecorded keyboard, you know the music well, the recording sounds good.

Well done!

To play more open on the horn is a challange. The bore size is small and the vibration needs to be free at the sweet spot. What ever this means on this horn. You know this when the sound is open.   This is the reciept of you are doing the right thing. Thank you for your wise comments

/Tom

I tend to confirm the thing about sounding too careful and not enough of vibrato. I guess lip/jaw vibrato will be more desirable than the handslide thingy. If anything I would like it sound a bit more free, a bit let studious and calculated.

I finally got a chance to listen.  I can log in at work, but not allowed to stream music or video.  Well, not supposed to anyway. 

I hear the carefulness others have mentioned, but I see it as appropriate for this genre.  I really like the slow trills, they sound very fitting for this piece. 

I finally got a chance to listen.  I can log in at work, but not allowed to stream music or video.  Well, not supposed to anyway. 

I hear the carefulness others have mentioned, but I see it as appropriate for this genre.  I really like the slow trills, they sound very fitting for this piece.