Professional Engraving

[trombonedemon]

Hi all, I was wondering are these horns engraved by hand. The engraving on my Conn 112H had me thinking how hard it is to be a professional engraver. Shires had the most impressive engravings I have ever seen, next to king and then Conn.
How hard it it to be a pro engraver, what tools are needed? Most places for jewelry have a machine. Lets see some of those trombone engravings.

[paulyg]

Engraving by hand is done with... engraving tools. They are specially-shaped tool steel chisels. Not THAT expensive... the expensive part is getting good enough at it that your work doesn't lower the value of the stock!

Machine engravers can be quite expensive, especially ones that can accommodate workpieces as large as a trombone bell. Some of these machines can also press quite hard, and may dent the bell.

[ghmerrill]

I have no idea what the cost would be in the musical instrument realm for an instrument to be hand-engraved. But as a comparison in the firearms domain, a 1/4 coverage of a pistol will often cost about $1,000 with full coverage being around $2,500. Just engraving a name will cost you about $175. For long guns, a "nice coverage can be achieved starting at about $2250.00".

I'd guess that engraving brass is less expensive, but in either case we're talking about the work of an experienced artist who is often working on an object that's already pretty expensive. If you're interested in having an instrument laser-engraved, take a look at places like https://www.veritasmachiningllc.com/mus ... ents-c1pl4.

[trombonedemon]

So, your saying the trombones are engraved by hand, soooo how does one practice to get good at trombone engraving? So practice on trombones, maybe a beater student horn to practice engraving on. My guess is the engraving is done after the shiny stuff. Those Shires though...... there engravers must be the best. Those things have intricate engraving. It seems that the better the engravings are the better the horn?!?!

[Matt K]

So, your saying the trombones are engraved by hand, soooo how does one practice to get good at trombone engraving? So practice on trombones, maybe a beater student horn to practice engraving on. My guess is the engraving is done after the shiny stuff. Those Shires though...... there engravers must be the best. Those things have intricate engraving. It seems that the better the engravings are the better the horn?!?!

Shires bells from the 90s and early 2000s were done by an artisan in Indiana I want to say. They were done by hand. Sometime in the mid 2000s they acquired a machine that does their engravings in-house. THey have several pre-programmed options (such as the floral engraving that is the default) but they have also done custom work such as the Shire (Hobbiton from Lord of the Rings) engraving they did for someone's bell a few years ago. I can't seem to find any pictures of it but it's doen quite well and, of course, a play on the name of the company.

[BGuttman]

Nowadays hand engraving has been supplanted by laser engraving. I believe the Shires engraving is done that way. When I get a chance (and I remember) I'll have to carefully examine the Shires bell on my tenor. There are hints that will show a digital engraving pattern rather than the full analog pattern that characterized older engraving.

Engraving can be done before or after lacquer, but should be done after polishing because the polishing action will tend to make the engraving less sharp.

Note that on early trombones, engraving was quite common. The exceptions were some rather high end horns like the Bach Stradivarius line or some of the really custom instruments like Williams or Minick.

Some of the nicest engraving was done on custom Conn trombones (Sternberg models) between the World Wars.

If you want to be a custom engraver you need similar skillsets to a professional tattoo artist. Anybody can run a laser engraver but to manually create great engravings requires an artistic bent.

[hornbuilder]

Old school hand engraving is very much a skill that has to be practiced! The tools are not "that" expensive, but like all tools, you have to know how to use, and care for them, or you can actually injure yourself pretty easily, not to mention end up with a less than perfect engraving result! I now hand engrave the logo on all the M&W bells, and have done a couple of more ornate bells for myself as "practice". This is not something that can be rushed into! I freely admit that engraving a logo is one thing, but doing a fully engraved bell in the same manner as someone like Sherry Huntley (Who is widely recognized as one of the last Master Engravers. She has also just retired, sadly) is going to take a deal more practice. If someone was to want to get into engraving, I would strongly suggest attending a NAPBIRT engraving course.

BTW. The techniques used on firearms and brass instruments are very different. It is much harder to punch a hole in a pistol! There is very little similarity to tattoos, too, as far as technique is concerned.

M

[hornbuilder]

BTW. The way to practice the skills, without burning through bells, is to use sheet brass or copper. Practice doing straight lines. NOT as easy as you might think!

M

[ghmerrill]

I think that, as with the case of manual skills in general, engraving is not something that can be learned in a "course". The course may be a good starting point to just learn the basics, the jargon, the common techniques and tools, etc. But while you can become a pretty competent (at least beginning) welder by going through a few certificate-oriented courses, this isn't going to happen with something like engraving. If someone hands you a $10,000 shotgun or tuba to engrave, you'd better have the experience not only to not ruin that object, but to enhance its appearance and value. This is where the old-fashioned ideas of experience and apprenticeship come into play.

So to the original question of "How hard is it to be a pro engraver?" Very hard. Big effort. How hard is it to BECOME a pro engraver? Even harder. PRO engravers can't make mistakes -- which means that they already have to have made a lot of those mistakes as part of the learning process. And that's even before you consider the artistic component and talent.

I wonder what insight Doug Elliott might offer in terms of his path to becoming a master mouthpiece designer and maker. I think there may be some significant similarities there.

[harrisonreed]

I thought engraving has been mostly replaced by machine.

Isn't it like aspiring to become a master windmill operator?

[BGuttman]

I thought engraving has been mostly replaced by machine.

Isn't it like aspiring to become a master windmill operator?

There will always be a demand (albeit small) for a good craftsman. Whether there will be enough to make a living is another matter entirely.

[bbocaner]

Nowadays hand engraving has been supplanted by laser engraving. I believe the Shires engraving is done that way.

It's mechanical, a rotating carbide burr or something like that. But it is computer controlled. They may have upgraded to a newer machine since then, but at one point they told me that at least a few bells were spoiled because computer crashed mid-engraving.

I tried hand engraving a number of years ago. It's not super tough to do, but the real trick is doing all those patterns FREEHAND and making them neat and symmetrical.

[JohnL]

I thought engraving has been mostly replaced by machine.

Isn't it like aspiring to become a master windmill operator?

More along the lines of being a master lace maker. Machines took over more than a century ago. There are people (like my wife) who do it as a hobby, but making a living at it? There's some market for handmade lace to go on ultra high end custom garments, but that's about it.

[harrisonreed]

You get my point though.

[JohnL]

You get my point though.

I don't suppose they actually call them "master windmill operators", but there are still people who operate windmills on a commercial basis.

This is about 80 miles from my house.

[harrisonreed]

Ah, but I meant actual mills, not power turbines.

Good one. That's actually a booming sector right now.

There's actually at least one person, in Australia, making a living as a master windMILL operator, milling flour. Thanks MasterChef Australia!

[JohnL]

As an aside...

Used to be a lot of engravers working in the music publishing industry. Every page of every part was hand-engraved on a printing plate.

[ghmerrill]

There will always be a demand (albeit small) for a good craftsman. Whether there will be enough to make a living is another matter entirely.

As I suggested, there ARE actually people who make a living of hand engraving in the firearms domain. Here's an example: https://www.southerncustomengraving.com ... -work.html. Note the little video at the bottom of the page illustrating the (hand) use of a (power) engraving tool. I really like the planes displayed on that page, but $1,000 for a plane is a bit steep for me, given how often I'd use it.

You have to pitch it as "art" rather than "craft". Then there's a group of people who will buy that art -- but I suspect that none of them are reading this thread.

[hornbuilder]

The type of engraving done on firearms is very different to the type done on brass instruments. Different tools. Different techniques.

M

[LeTromboniste]

As an aside...

Used to be a lot of engravers working in the music publishing industry. Every page of every part was hand-engraved on a printing plate.

Yes and the worst part of course is it has to all be engraved in negative, so it went right to left! Yikes.



To the point of the initial topic, engraving isn't necessarily difficult in itself, the same way that many arts and crafts are not inherently difficult. I made a decent looking engraving on an instrument I participated in building, it was a first go at engraving and I got much better than I expected. Probably took me hours longer than somebody with more experience, let alone a pro. It requires a pretty intense level of concentration. But past the difficulty of action itself, I think it would be extremely difficult and long to master it past the point of achieving a visually pleasing result, and instead to the point of perfectly controlling that result and having it match the design you have in mind every time. Also getting a level of confidence where you can accept to engrave an already existing and loved item (I.e. it's one thing for an instrument maker to engrave the instruments they make and for which they could always replace whatever part is being engraved if something goes horribly wrong, I feel like it would take a higher level of confidence and skill to engrave an existing instrument that belongs to someone, as the stakes are much higher).

[trombonedemon]

So is there correlation between how good the instrument is and the engraving. Why spend so much engraving "money" on a horn that is not professional. Now that I mention it, I saw a Bach Omega with some serious engraving, is that not a student horn? So, why would Bach engrave a student horn and not a Pro horn?

One could imagine that these tools have be extra sharp. So, I might go to Ebay to find some engravers tool and practice on some beater bells. Would a dremel have the same effects as actual freehand engravers tools. I'm willing to see how good I can get at this. I need a kick in the right direction. Who can I get to sharpen said tools.

How about those pictures of those bells with engravings!!!! Seriously people.

[ghmerrill]

The type of engraving done on firearms is very different to the type done on brass instruments. Different tools. Different techniques.

M

Yeah, okay. I'm with you on that. However, I think the focus here is on the requirements and market for custom engraving -- which I think is domain-independent in these cases. People want their stuff decorated in a particular way. Similar skills are in fact involved (though you can point to some specific dissimilarities of tools and techniques). Same for engraving plates for currency (which the Treasury Department says is a disappearing need and art).

[ghmerrill]

Would a dremel have the same effects as actual freehand engravers tools.

Aaaaaack!!!!!

[BGuttman]

Would a dremel have the same effects as actual freehand engravers tools.

Aaaaaack!!!!!

Gary is right. With a suitable bit, you might be able to make a crude approximation to an engraving tool, but most Dremel tips are WAY too coarse. You might have better luck with some dental burrs; particularly the smaller ones. And a hand piece that feels more like a pen than a Dremel.

You might even get better results using a steel point (no vibration).

Most definitely practice on scrap metal. You will be doing a lot to get good. And find somebody to critique your work with suggestions on improvement (not just a snarky critic).

[hornbuilder]

No. A Dremel is not the correct tool. Regardless of cutting bit used.

When gravers are purchased, they are "sharp", bit not honed to a fine edge, and are longer than is appropriate for most people. They need to be mounted in handles, and adjusted to length then sharpened/honed by the person doing the engraving. This is all a part of the skill set.

Regarding attending a trade school/course. Of course you are only going to learn the fundamentals. That is the point! Without learning the correct fundamentals, you are much more likely to end up frustrated and failing, having spent money on tools that end up rusting in a drawer. Do you suggest a beginning trombone student not have lessons to learn the basics, because they will not be sufficient to get them to the level required to play in Chicago Symphony?

I think people need to be careful in expressing their opinions on a subject, particularly, if they have no direct experience in that subject.

M

[Leanit]

I'm need somebody to engrave "Property of Tommy Dorsey" on an old 2B before I sell it.

[ghmerrill]

https://www.amazon.com/FOLAI-Electric-E ... s=engraver

[LeTromboniste]

So is there correlation between how good the instrument is and the engraving. Why spend so much engraving "money" on a horn that is not professional. Now that I mention it, I saw a Bach Omega with some serious engraving, is that not a student horn? So, why would Bach engrave a student horn and not a Pro horn?

1. Because high school students care way more about having a shiny new instrument with a fancy engraving than professional players do. If a pro wants a special engraving, they'll be willing to pay for a custom work, but having a student horn that is engraved by default has an impact on marketing.

2. A Bach Omega is not engraved by hand, it's an entirely automated process. It's not really that expensive for them to do it. Custom engraving by hand is an entirely different thing. You won't see a student instrument with a custom hand made engraving.

[hornbuilder]

FWIW,

Here is a page to look at. These are the tools used in hand engraving of instruments....

https://contenti.com/engraving-tools/gr ... el-gravers

And a short video...



To the OP. I'm happy to talk further via PM, if you're interested.

M

[ghmerrill]

Why spend so much engraving "money" on a horn that is not professional. Now that I mention it, I saw a Bach Omega with some serious engraving, is that not a student horn? So, why would Bach engrave a student horn and not a Pro horn?

The answer to this lies in simple marketing principles. If your product (e.g., student trombone) is competing with a significant number of highly similar products from other companies, and there really aren't any substantive differences that you can point to for selecting your product from all those available, and all those products are price-competitive, then add some distinctive feature to your product that will distinguish it while not raising the cost (at least to any noticeable degree). Voila! Enter machine engraving to make your product look cooler than the competition. That's not spending "so much engraving 'money' " on the product. The incremental cost is quite low. It's not like you've got kindly old Geppetto hand-engraving all those horns.

Professional players, on the other hand, are selecting their instruments using quite different criteria and either aren't remotely impressed by cheap machine engraving or actually prefer not to have horns mucked up by generic "artwork".

[TheBoneRanger]

I now hand engrave the logo on all the M&W bells, and have done a couple of more ornate bells for myself as "practice". This is not something that can be rushed into!

Bravo, Matt! And thanks for the video! I had no idea how such engraving was done, so it was very enlightening. I bet it was quite a leap of faith to decide to take on the role.

So, in future, will we be able to tell the era of an M&W horn by the quality of the engraving?

Andrew

[2bobone]

This whole discussion brings to mind those wonderful lyrics for "Easter Parade" -----"On the avenue, fifth avenue, the photographers will snap us, And you'll find that you're in the ROTOGRAVURE." Carry on -------------

[LeTromboniste]

Nice post by Egger that relates to this thread.

https://www.facebook.com/26907988644617 ... 80?sfns=mo

[bigbandbone]

A long time ago when I was building tubas and sousaphones at the King/UMI factory in Eastlake Ohio I found a box of gravers left behind when the engraving department was eliminated. They were pretty rusted and in rough shape. I cleaned them up, sharpened them, and started practicing on scrap brass. I also made some travers out of files. After awhile I was making pretty nice Christmas tree ornaments and monogrammed book marks on flat sheet brass. I had just started practicing on bell flares when I left the employ of UMI. Working on the compound curves of a bell flare was a lot tougher than flat brass stock. I wanted to continue learning, but didn't have ready access to junk bells to practice on. And believe me, you ruin a lot of pieces when you are practicing! One slip and you start start over!

[trombonedemon]

A long time ago when I was building tubas and sousaphones at the King/UMI factory in Eastlake Ohio I found a box of gravers left behind when the engraving department was eliminated. They were pretty rusted and in rough shape. I cleaned them up, sharpened them, and started practicing on scrap brass. I also made some travers out of files. After awhile I was making pretty nice Christmas tree ornaments and monogrammed book marks on flat sheet brass. I had just started practicing on bell flares when I left the employ of UMI. Working on the compound curves of a bell flare was a lot tougher than flat brass stock. I wanted to continue learning, but didn't have ready access to junk bells to practice on. And believe me, you ruin a lot of pieces when you are practicing! One slip and you start start over!

So how did you start as a beginner, free hand, a templet on the bell? Did you cut yourself much, is there a way to prevent injury, where are these how to videos. My Benge 190 had an engraving on bell, it was fairly clean looking, some had engravings some didn't! Tools and practice metals is what I need now.

[bigbandbone]

It's called wriggle engraving because of the wriggling movement of the graver. I started by practicing long parallel straight lines. Then parallel curved lines. Then simple block letters. Then scrolls. The two hardest parts are keeping the graders sharpened correctly and consistency. Keeping the graver at a consistent angle to the work and keeping consistent down and forward pressure on the graver. Get any of that wrong and the graver slips across the piece and leaves a gouge. And yes, sometimes the graver she slips and stops in you your finger! The other thing I found useful after watching firearms engravers is when possible keep the graver still and move the work piece underneath it. To this end I built a lazy Susan with a rubber to to support and turn the work piece. I tried a few junk tbone bells before I left the King factory, but didn't have the right tools or techniques. I still make gifts for people out of flat stock. Sometimes brass, sometimes sterling silver. I make my own shading tools. I lay my design out with a grease pencil. And I've started experimenting with push engraving to high light, out line, and make small letters. I hope some of this helped.

[trombonedemon]

It's called wriggle engraving because of the wriggling movement of the graver. I started by practicing long parallel straight lines. Then parallel curved lines. Then simple block letters. Then scrolls. The two hardest parts are keeping the graders sharpened correctly and consistency. Keeping the graver at a consistent angle to the work and keeping consistent down and forward pressure on the graver. Get any of that wrong and the graver slips across the piece and leaves a gouge. And yes, sometimes the graver she slips and stops in you your finger! The other thing I found useful after watching firearms engravers is when possible keep the graver still and move the work piece underneath it. To this end I built a lazy Susan with a rubber to to support and turn the work piece. I tried a few junk tbone bells before I left the King factory, but didn't have the right tools or techniques. I still make gifts for people out of flat stock. Sometimes brass, sometimes sterling silver. I make my own shading tools. I lay my design out with a grease pencil. And I've started experimenting with push engraving to high light, out line, and make small letters. I hope some of this helped.

Thats exactly what I need to know!!!! Thanks for all the help, I'm seriously gonna post some pictures when I get started