TromboneChat

I ran across this a few years ago and forgot about it. I was cleaning up my hard drive and stumbled across it again. I’m hoping it encourages discussion. I decided not to post it in the alternate positions thread because it’s not about alternate or equivalent positions. It’s about all the possibilities. I assume this is based on equal temperament.

Definitely not for beginners.

This chart is from an article from the 1950s in The Instrumentalist magazine. It was based on just tuning adjustments needed for the different partials. Many of us use these adjustments (and more!) all the time.

There's only one position, but it's really wide (i.e., the entire length of the slide) and you have to adjust within it to get the notes where they belong.

Thanks, Bruce! I never knew where this came from.

Muscle memory and a pair of good ears connected to a functioning brain will render this chart moot. It's an interesting curiosity, though.

Nice chart! Of course, it would be even more useful if it also contained all the trigger positions..

henrikbe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:04 am Nice chart! Of course, it would be even more useful if it also contained all the trigger positions..

I think they're in there somewhere. Just no room to designate them explicitly.

henrikbe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:04 am Nice chart! Of course, it would be even more useful if it also contained all the trigger positions..

I think that would be impossible because those can (on a bass trombone) be affected by two additional tuning slides.. You would have to have a position chart for the Bb, the F, the Gb and for the D tuning and they would have influence each other based on how far out you have the slides.. Sounds even more complicated than the 51 positions

shider wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:40 am

henrikbe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:04 am Nice chart! Of course, it would be even more useful if it also contained all the trigger positions..

I think that would be impossible because those can (on a bass trombone) be affected by two additional tuning slides..

Actually, the positions on a straight trombone are also affected by the tuning slide... If you pull the tuning slide out, the relative distances between the positions on the main slide increase ever so slightly.

There is another problem with this chart: It's only valid for one model trombone. The alignment of the partials can vary from model to model depending on design.

What the chart really shows is that unlike our quantized valve brethren, we have a great ability to adjust the horn to different situations.

Valved instruments are digital. Trombones are analog. Bass trombones are demonic.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:57 amWhat the chart really shows is that unlike our quantized valve brethren, we have a great ability to adjust the horn to different situations.

Not just the ability, but an obligation...

This chart does not align with my internal model, though it seems pretty accurate for someone with a horn that behaves in that way on his own face. What I mean by internal model is an internal visualization of the position chart. The best representation of such chart I have seen is in Greg Waits' book, but for some reason his internal model is upside down relative to mine. (Lower in his visual model is higher in pitch--don't get that part.)

Anyway, the internal visual model allows one to think visually about lines, and Greg does that in his chart. So melody becomes a path of connected positions in the chart. Everything has a visual path. The ear can then recognize in aural context there are position paths available for play, not just notes.

Anyway, this chart does not support that kind of thing. And most charts do not well handle the compression of partials as they go up. When they get note-wise close there is just not enough room to display everything on paper, but the mind's eye can zoom in on the detail to follow the paths.

Here is a chart I found early on in my playing.
Really helped me to visualize.. Wish I had a clear overlay with my 2 triggers added.. Any graphic designers?
The creator has an awesome site also.
EZ

It was great,as a young player, to be introduced to these tendencies.

It may be different exact placements on different horns but the tendencies are quite similar. Even on other Bb pitched tubes like a euphonium or trumpet the 6th partial (?) (do we start counting at pedal Bb?) F often needs to be pulled down a bit.

A chart like this is a great starting point to realize that playing in tune is a process of constant adjustment.

Yet, it doesn't even start to account for playing in different tonalities...

Mark McDunn’s “The 51 Positions” chart goes from the first natural harmonic (pedal) up to the sixteenth harmonic. We must add seven new (different) positions for each odd harmonic above that. The reference positions correspond to fixed positions for natural harmonics one, two, four, eight, and sixteen. In these fixed reference positions, compared to their nearest (in frequency) equitempered tones, the third, sixth, twelfth, and twenty-fourth natural harmonics are all 2¢ sharp; the fifth, tenth, and twentieth are all 14¢ flat; the seventh and fourteenth are 31¢ flat; the ninth and eighteenth are 4¢ sharp (i.e. twice as sharp as the third); the eleventh and twenty-second are 49¢ flat (i.e. essentially half-way between reference positions); the thirteenth is 41¢ sharp; the fifteenth is 12¢ flat (2¢ sharper than the fifth harmonic or 14¢ flatter than the third). So all these tones require slide-position adjustment for equitemperament, as shown precisely in Mark McDunn’s diagram.

Anders Larson’s Digitaltrombone chart (from the second to the twelfth harmonic) is qualitatively correct, but quantitatively fairly “approximate”. [It was also missing some eleventh harmonics that I’ve filled in.] A more precise graphical portrayal of Equitempered Tones (vertical axis) versus Slide Position extension (horizontal axis) results in a good representation of where to find equitempered tones—the ETSP Chart. See the ETSP Chart for the Bb trombone (without attachment), below. Although different real instruments played by the same player (and the same instrument played by different players) will differ from this “theoretical” natural-harmonic model, the correct practical positions on well-designed instruments will not vary by more than a few millimetres.

While looking at the ETSP Chart, try playing some lip-slurred whole-tone scales: major-second increments between adjacent harmonics “against the grain” (up and down) from around the top of the bass clef up into the treble clef. Also some lip-slurred chromatic scales “against the grain” in the upper treble clef—good for emboucher building! Also some lip-slurred diminished-seventh arpeggios, tracing minor-third increments between adjacent harmonics. Experiment with other scales and arpeggios while “reading from” the corresponding tones (black dots) in the Chart. Note that between-adjacent-harmonic whole-tone scales change direction at the ninth harmonic; at the seventeenth harmonic for the chromatic scales. Also note that the non-shaded regions indicate where alternate positions are available; none are available where the coloured shadings touch each other. This is all useful pedagogy, especially for beginning students exploring upper harmonics and alternate positions.

ETSP Charts are also useful for comparing various different single-valve and (dependent or in-line) dual-valve tunings of attachments—where all positions of slide-alone and attachment(s) are immediately obvious.

A more comprehensive hard-copy description of the construction of the ETSP Chart, including equations for harmonics and the underlying “curves” for the semitone, whole-tone and other interval between-adjacent-harmonic small-increment patterns, and single-valve continuous chromatic extension to pedals, is available by contacting me (Benny Leonard) via email—enclosing a convenient postal address—at [email protected]

Why is 1st position at the edge of the mouthpiece receiver?

Mark McDunn's picture portrays just the outer slide. The marker for his positions seems to be at the outer edge of the cross brace.

Is the ETSP chart by Anders Larson? Whoever did it, it's EXACTLY my own model, a remarkable graphic. For me further, the thing exists in 3d extending along the slide. Playing then draws graph figures all over it. Nicely done.

This mental model did create some range difficulty, though. The partials would get higher and higher in space, which seemed to correlate with "harder". It's taken a while to mentally drag the chart down to put those notes in the "easy" range.

I developed the ETSP Chart back in the 1960s, while a graduate student in aerospace engineering at Cornell University, and playing in the Cornell Symphony Orchestra under Karel Husa. I was unaware of Mark McDunn's chart (and of Anders Larson's) until many years later. My original attempts consisted of just the graphical part. The idea for adding the lines of the treble and bass clefs came from books by John Backus, The Acoustical Foundations of Music, 1977, and by Murray Campbell and Clive Greated, The Musician's Guide to Acoustics, 1988.

The idea of (mentally) tracing phrases through the chart is good pedagogy. In the following, the red "path" traces the well-known lip-slurred Bb major scale--(almost) "against the grain"-- starting from Bb3 on the fourth harmonic up to Bb4 on the eleventh harmonic, and back down again. Similar scale passages using major and minor increments between adjacent harmonics are clearly available in higher registers. The "blue" path shows a portion of a whole-tone scale, which could be continued on into higher registers. This is good for range development, as is the portion of a chromatic scale shown by the green "path". And similar phrases higher up.

Benny Leonard.

The problem of course with the "51 positions" chart is that it tries to be exhaustive, while completely ignoring the fact that we almost never play in exclusively equal temperament, and that tuning adjustments are required most of the time to account for the harmonic context. So no matter the chart we use, most of our playing is always going to be off that chart. A truly exhaustive side position chart that accounted for all the adjustments we routinely make would have hundreds of positions, and be completely illegible. And yet it still wouldn't be quite exhaustive as it would assume a perfectly in-tune bass line. And that's without even going into differences between horns, mouthpiece-horn pairings and individual player's tendencies...

(Thinking about this reminds me of a composer I had arguments with, who had devised a notation system to indicate intonation corrections in his music in order for chords to be pure, and claimed to have thus invented a whole new concept of tuning, mixing equal temperament and just intonation... He just couldn't accept that his system in fact simply corresponded to the way good orchestras play anyway, and that players of melodic instruments are used to making those adjustments on the fly and to tune pure chords without needing that information printed in their part.)



It's interesting to contrast the "51 positions" chart to the earliest known position chart, which has only four rough positions, and assumes constant adjustment from those, not only for intonation and different partial spacing, but even merely for accidentals!


(from Aurelio Virgiliano's Il Dolcimelo, ca. 1600)

I’m glad this topic has been revisited. It’s always interesting to see and read how people (attempt to) document complex human activities like sports, music, etc.

I think it’s interesting that, aside from Virgiliano’s (which presumably documents just intonation—Maximillien?), these charts seem to document only equal temperament, and not just, Pythagorean, or other intonation systems.

Also, some questions about the ETSP chart:

1. What does ETSP mean?
2. What do the blue and orange areas mean?

Here's a lick from Carl Fontana on Dirty Dog, a Bb minor blues. Unusually, it starts on the downbeat, fast eighths all the way up, Db hit hard on the and. It illustrates how to use adjacency to get around.


I'll leave as an exercise to the reader to find all the similarly constructed pentatonics. "Carl scales".

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:04 am I think it’s interesting that, aside from Virgiliano’s (which presumably documents just intonation—Maximillien?), these charts seem to document only equal temperament, and not just, Pythagorean, or other intonation systems.

Virgiliano likely assumed a meantone tuning, which if he gave a position to each pitch, would require 10 or 11 positions (and again before even thinking about adjustments for partial spacing and playing pure fifths).

In answer to: 1. What does ETSP mean?
In real life, I work on designing algorithms in CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics). The field is full of acronyms, often TLAs (Three-Letter Acronyms). Some are pronounceable and have some connotation with the subject matter--like my well-known QUICK scheme (Quadratic Upstream Interpolation for Convective Kinematics). The term ETSP is just a bland FLA for a precise portrayal of a two-dimensional universal lattice of Equitempered-Tones (vertical axis) versus Slide-Position (horizontal axis), when the harmonics of the theoretical prototype instrument follow the full harmonic series: 1x, 2x, 3x, . . . , a fundamental frequency, in any fixed slide position. I apologise if my habit of using acronyms sounds a bit too technical. Perhaps I should work on finding a more appropriate (and pronounceable) acronym for this universal lattice for a true-intonation map of all tones of equitemperament. And, by the way, the lattice can easily be reconfigured to represent other (non-equitempered) tuning systems, or microtonal effects, or other equitempered scales such as the Javanese 7-note scale (that sounds a lot like a bland Dorian scale, but with no tonic centre). Also see the YouTube presentation, "The Trombone Section on Tuning a Chord", by the River City Brass.

In answer to: 2. What do the blue and orange areas mean?
The orange shading is bounded by a chromatic scale using shortest possible slide positions. The blue shading boundary uses longest possible positions. Where the two colours touch, there are no available alternate positions. The unshaded areas show, at a glance, where alternate positions are available. This is a good pedagogic tool for beginning students exploring alternate positions, especially in the higher register, where the harmonics are closer together. More facile slide technique correlates with steeper regions of the dashed curves (representing whole-tone increments between adjacent harmonics). In particular, above the fourth harmonic, any tone of the chromatic scale is available within any three adjacent slide positions.

Regarding tracing paths in the ETSP Chart, the Carl Fontana lick can be performed in a slightly different way, using some outer-position alternates, especially effective with articulation in triplets (lip slurs between adjacent harmonics, doodle-tongue along individual harmonics), as follows.

Here's a little "perpetual-motion" warm-up lick from Kai Winding's book, Method of Jazz Trombone Improvisation--designed to cultivate a very "relaxed" slide technique, combining lip-slurs (between harmonics) and doodle tonguing (along harmonics). Shown by a "double loop" on the ETSP Chart--first in it's original register (red), then an octave lower (blue) on a Bb/G single-valve tenor. The G-attachment (open circles) third harmonic mimics the Bb slide-alone fifth harmonic an octave lower. Notice the same nominal positions, shifted by one octave. Both phrases can be planed down to lower registers. Similar "relaxed" patterns in the lower octave can be found on Bb/Gb tuning, but not with "same-nominal-position" relationship. On Bb/F or attachmentless trombones, the lower-octave pattern is anything but "relaxed"!

This is fascinating. A lot of really helpful conversation has been contributed -- I'd like to thank Sesquitone (Benny?) for his write-up on this.

One comment says this chart is great, but also intimates that it's moot, in real life performance, because everyone (who is listening, and cares), is trying their best to play in tune within and between sections. In my opinion, it's part of what makes live music fun.

When I first saw this ETSP chart (about a week ago), it took me a while to figure it out -- but it's all there.

That said, a "religious" adherence to equal temperament is kind of odd, but has its place:

1) You better know this ETSP, and do it, if you're playing solo, accompanied by a piano in equal temperament!

2) You will probably be reprimanded, and possibly asked to leave, if you insist on equal temperament in a brass quintet.

3) You might be really frustrated, and shunned, if you bring this up during orchestra rehearsals.

4) Speaking of orchestras, do violins tune in pure fifths, or equal-tempered fifths? Dunno. I bet I think I know what they think they're doing, and I bet tempered fifths (and especially major thirds) are a constant challenge and bone of contention.

5) On the other hand, get enough musicians in the game, and all these "differing cents of pitch" probably cancel each other out, and create the color and affect of fine orchestral playing. Or not.

Cheers,
-Bruce

PS: A big thank you to Sesquitone for his input on this.

PPS: At the start of this thread (thank you KBiggs), there's a great scan of Mark McDunn's 51 positions -- I'm glad to see it apparently features a coffee cup ring stain, as well as what might very well be random trombone spittle ...

The ETSP Chart does not advocate "religious adherence" to equitemperament. It merely points out, with some precision, where the equitempered tones are to be found--just as fingering charts for (modern) woodwind instruments point out where their equitempered tones are to be found. In modern orchestras or chamber groups, with a wide range of repertoire, including diatonic material in all (24 major and minor) keys, rampant chromaticism, or atonality, experienced players of all instruments, with (by definition) "good ears", will automatically slightly adjust intonation in order to produce the "best sounding" result. Once again, I highly recommend "The Trombone Section on Tuning a Chord" YouTube presentation by River City Brass School of Brass.

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:18 am The ETSP Chart does not advocate "religious adherence" to equitemperament. It merely points out, with some precision, where the equitempered tones are to be found--just as fingering charts for (modern) woodwind instruments point out where their equitempered tones are to be found. In modern orchestras or chamber groups, with a wide range of repertoire, including diatonic material in all (12) keys, rampant chromaticism, or atonality, experienced players of all instruments, with (by definition) "good ears", will automatically slightly adjust intonation in order to produce the "best sounding" result. Once again, I highly recommend "The Trombone Section on Tuning a Chord" YouTube presentation by River City Brass School of Brass.

Totally agree. You have to know where the note is on the slide before you can adjust it. Being ignorant of where the equal tempered pitches lie won't make you "in tune". Most of us already know the tendencies extremely well, and the chart is merely illustrating what good trombone players already do. Plus, we have learned where the particular instrument we play on varies from the theoretical positions the chart shows. THEN you are equipped to make pitch adjustments to tune intervals with other players.

I just read through some material a friend sent, regarding the ETSP. ET is quite sharp (13.686¢) relative to the 5th harmonic (eg, 1st position D4 relative to Bb1). He makes the observation that pulling the slide in against the bumper springs achieves getting this note in tune to ET.

I always thought these springs were to cushion against a rapid move to first position, but it turns out they are (also) really important to being able to pull the slide sharper
in first position (without resorting to embouchure adjustments), while leaving a default first position that you can count on that is at the uncompressed springs.

I guess I always knew (and did) this, but it never registered (to me) that these springs are part of an intelligent and logical design. (The things one learns ).

BruceSimonson wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:51 pm I always thought these springs were to cushion against a rapid move to first position, but it turns out [slide bumper springs] are (also) really important to being able to pull the slide sharper in first position (without resorting to embouchure adjustments), while leaving a default first position that you can count on that is at the uncompressed springs.

One of the reasons that I love the bumper springs on my Conn 88H slide!

Since, from time to time, people have discussed the "exact" placement of attachment positions for the ubiquitous F attachment relative to the Bb slide-alone reference positions, this is something that can be easily and precisely displayed (once again using equitemperament) on the ETSP Chart. In the following, black dots again signify slide-alone tones; open circles show the corresponding attachment tones for the first three attachment harmonics. [Higher attachment harmonics are rarely used, except for "special effects".] Note how the attachment alternates "open up" unshaded regions in the lower register. Also note which (four) attachment alternates have the same sound-path lengths as their respective (non-pedal) slide-alone counterparts--and which have longer sound-paths (along the attachment third harmonic). Also note the "correct" position of C2 and its pedal--at 661 mm, well beyond slide-alone 7th position (at 613 mm). The Cs are usually played at an overextension of about 620 mm, as shown, where they are still 27¢ sharp and require embouchure adjustment. Also obvious, of course, is the missing B1.

I did find this one in the german wikipedia and found it to be clearly arranged a helpful. It ives a quite good advice on the positions and their adjustments, for the F Valve too.

Am I the only one who read through this thread and is left with the impression that it is complete nonsense? Reducing slide positions to a chart is functionally impossible, if for no other reason than the position of the note you are playing depends on what function that note serves in relation to the harmonic application.

In its simplest terms, if you play an E as the tonic of an E major triad, that E is in tune in one place, but if your E is the third in a C major triad, it will be out of tune in that same place, and has to be played lower on the slide.

Even if all the nonsense in this thread is somehow accurately descriptive (it is not), it is still entirely useless in the real world. You either have big ears and play in tune or you don't. Not one thing in this thread is going to help you play better or more in tune no matter how in depth you study it. A computer playing the tones exactly as described in this thread will be playing out of tune, because that's not how sound and harmonics work.

I'm flabbergasted. Maybe I'm just stupid. Or maybe I'm just too pragmatic to care about such technical attempts to describe things (and failing IMHO). I guess I'm just more real world useful. Like, if you ask a hundred people to describe what laughter means to them, you'll get people talking about a spontaneous reaction to humor, or an expression of mirth or joy, or some such; but if you ask a scientist who studies laughter academically, you'll be told that laughter is a reset function of an adaptive interrupted defense mechanism. That scientist may think he's got the better and more accurate description, but professional comedians who deal daily in laughter will not find said description of any use whatsoever. Same with this and professional trombonists. I guess I'm stuck on an ethic of "just play the f**king notes in tune, or go home and practice until you can!" LOL!

Am I the only neanderthal who feels that way? "Yup, it's just you, Dana!"

No, you’re not the only one who feels that way.

As the OP, my intent (hope?) was that others would contribute additional position charts to the thread. In that respect, it has been and will continue to be successful (I hope).

It seems as though many modern attempts at position charts assume equal temperament, whereas most musicians know that the note’s position in the chord and the melody/accompaniment over-rides any set place.

I believe that position charts retain their function, especially for beginners. They can also be useful for intermediate players when, for example, they start playing an F-attachment horn, or when they start playing a double-trigger bass.

Music is an art. Philosophy (aesthetics) attempts to describe the utility (futility?) and contribution of the arts to human history. Physics, mathematics and acoustics attempt to explain and describe who a sound is created and shaped. Yet music is an art.

Thankyou Tbdana! You are not alone.

It is kind of scary if trombonists take this seriously. 51 positions might be enough for one player playing one trombone with one mouthpiece together with a synthetic mashine. That player might be deaf. It would probably help.

... and yet...

Kenneth wrote "... definitely not for beginners..."

Did ANY of the posters NOT get told about "7 positions" or "7 valve combinations" when they were beginners?

The 7 positions of the beginner are a HORRIBLY powerful Wittgenstein Ladder. Wittgenstein what?
"My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them—as steps—to climb beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.)

He must transcend these propositions, and then he will see the world aright."

That "transcending" bit is the problem. Some folks transend more easily than others.

Ever see a full grown trombone player work hard to get an up-against-the-bumper Bb in tune, then sit back and decide that, for all the other notes, everyone ELSE must be out of tune? I sure have!

Ever try to get a bunch of trombonists to play an Ab together, LOOKING for slide movement to pull it into shape, and see only a handful of slide shift?

For MY purposes diagrams like the ones above serve a blasting powder to help transend that 7-position "teaching tool". These provide visual cues to how misleading the 7-position bias is.

Each of the models above is going to get a player closer to the right places. It IS completey feasible to have a computer model EXACTLY where a note and position should be to play a note in tune in ANY temperament. And this is because "in tune" in each temperament is NOT the same as getting a laugh.

Stringing the notes together to make a musical expression? That's a COMPLETELY different kettle of fish.

Trying to apply the charts above in the middle of playing, or as anything other than a focused effort to refine pitch to position associations? I agree, futile and, in fact, VERY counterproductive.

These tools, like tuning meters and other aids, are like backhoes at an archaeological dig. They get you MUCH closer to where the finesses of our built-in tools works best, and avoid exhausting those tools before we REALLY need them.

Final concrete example: trigger Eb. Tradition puts it in a "flat 3rd." Most players get that note more in tune if they are thinking of a "sharp 4th." Even pretty experienced players. The result is not because they get a better image of the slide position. The improvement is because they stop associating the trigger Eb with the non-trigger Eb. Once freed from the 7 position simplifying assumption they start to transcend.

End of rant.

Intonation is dynamic. It is never static, which is implied by a position chart. Adolescents (and pre-adolescents) have difficulty thinking in abstract terms. Give them something concrete like: “Third position is where the slide tube is even with the bell. Fourth is where the end of the stocking is even with the bell.” They understand, and it gives them a reference point. Just like Suzuki string players have dots or lines tapes onto the fingerboard.

The utility of a position chart diminishes over time and experience. With experience and reflection, most people’s intonation improves, and the idea of fixed positions means less and less.

And yes, Ludwig had a few good ideas, eh?

boneagain wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 5:56 am ... and yet...

Final concrete example: trigger Eb. Tradition puts it in a "flat 3rd." Most players get that note more in tune if they are thinking of a "sharp 4th." Even pretty experienced players. The result is not because they get a better image of the slide position. The improvement is because they stop associating the trigger Eb with the non-trigger Eb. Once freed from the 7 position simplifying assumption they start to transcend.

Yes that is a good exampel of how slide position chart can make people not listen. I have meet many trombone players who always play the low Eb sharp because of the evil "flat 3rd". Just because it is written in a book.

I was a student of George Roberts back in the day and he always insisted that I close the tuning slide all the way in. That way I would have to listen to play in tune. I use this with my students. Sometimes it's just not practical but I play with it in all the way as much as I can.

I like the tuning slide all the way in but dang, that makes 7th position a loonnng way out.

I play a 62h adapted to open wraps and split triggers by "we all know who". That makes it more important to listen also. Let's face it guys, all the grafts and science is really interesting but the most important thing is to use our ears and make position choices based on facility and need of the melodic line.

baileyman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:14 am Here's a lick from Carl Fontana on Dirty Dog, a Bb minor blues. Unusually, it starts on the downbeat, fast eighths all the way up, Db hit hard on the and. It illustrates how to use adjacency to get around.


fontana dirty dog lick.JPG


I'll leave as an exercise to the reader to find all the similarly constructed pentatonics. "Carl scales".

I love that album! Can't really tell these 4 trombonists apart yet.
Interesting that he plays that out of tune Ab4 even though it's not on the chart!
I, as a beginner trombonist, was missing that note, along with E5 next to 1st position, so had to reinstall them, along with note names next to most of the dots: This chart has been the only printed matter that i felt i needed for my trombone practice. So many ways to use it. Big big thousandfold thank you to it's maker!

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:31 pm
Am I the only neanderthal who feels that way? "Yup, it's just you, Dana!"

Me too!
I use the ETSP chart to familiarize myself with the instrument, not to play in tune. Totally support your sentiments here

iranzi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2024 7:32 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:31 pm
Am I the only neanderthal who feels that way? "Yup, it's just you, Dana!"

Me too!
I use the ETSP chart to familiarize myself with the instrument, not to play in tune. Totally support your sentiments here

The philosophy behind the ETSP Chart is to show where all tones are—equitempered or not. Continuously along every available harmonic. For slide-alone notes, the black dots indicate the "theoretical" positions of equtempered tones. For attachment notes, the open circles (or other symbols for dual-valve combinations) show the "theoretical" positions for those equitempered tones. Other than keyboardists, musicians don't (usually) try to play in precise equitemperament. In addition, the theoretical positions don't necessarily correspond to what will be found on a real instrument. And, for any given instrument, positions may change (slightly) with different players. Please treat ETSP Charts as "guides" for exploration (i.e. showing what's available) rather than some kind of "prescription". It's important to be able to see the relative (theoretical) positions of all tones on all harmonics—all in one place. Ultimately, to be able to "see" this information in one's mind's eye.

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 8:11 pm [...]
The philosophy behind the ETSP Chart is to show where all tones are—equitempered or not. Continuously along every available harmonic. For slide-alone notes, the black dots indicate the "theoretical" positions of equtempered tones. For attachment notes, the open circles (or other symbols for dual-valve combinations) show the "theoretical" positions for those equitempered tones. Other than keyboardists, musicians don't (usually) try to play in precise equitemperament. In addition, the theoretical positions don't necessarily correspond to what will be found on a real instrument. And, for any given instrument, positions may change (slightly) with different players. Please treat ETSP Charts as "guides" for exploration (i.e. showing what's available) rather than some kind of "prescription". It's important to be able to see the relative (theoretical) positions of all tones on all harmonics—all in one place. Ultimately, to be able to "see" this information in one's mind's eye.

Different players and i assume also different instruments — there's variations in same-pitch locations on different slides, no?

"Relative positions on one page" — that's exactly it's value to me as a trombone student.
I have stacks of them printed out, lying around the room, with ideas for music or exercise penciled in —
the ETSP and another chart i found somewhere that i use for scale ideas and "microtonal" stuff, using color stickers on that one:

I think animating an ETSP chart would be interesting.

I've been a fan of smalin on youtube (stephen malinowski). He makes videos of mostly classical pieces animated in a sort of "Guitar Hero notation" style. Over the years he's increased in sophistication with colors and shapes, but the early ones are great too. They really show visually what's going on while you listen aurally.

He also wrote an interesting conductor software. There were a couple of people trying to craft that into a more user friendly version. They contacted me a few years back but they were working on Apple only at the time, and I never heard more.