TromboneChat

Hey All

Just curious, who are some of the jazz cats that play on a larger bore horn, and is it straight or with an F attachment.  I am listening to some Mike Dease right now, seems like he might have a larger horn, which he gets an incredible sound and range out of.  I was wondering what you all thought about this topic.  What did/does Slide or Curtis play on?

Mike Dease, David Gibson, Slide Hampton, Curtis Fuller, Phil Wilson and Robin Eubanks all play/played large horns for most of their stuff.

As far as I know, Robin Eubanks is the only one of those who uses a trigger most of the time.

Mike Dease is on a Rath large bore, as is David Gibson. DG used to play a 4B I think. Slide used to play a straight bass bone (.562) and I've heard Curtis was on an Olds Opera ( I had one when I went through my trying to sound like Curtis phase.) Phil Wilson I think was on that beast of a yamaha with the .551 bore for a bit, and I think Robin uses a Yamaha of some flavor.

I used to play straight large bores, but ditched them in favor of more standard equipment for the sake of my section mates. Now I just prefer small for the weight.

There are other guys as well, it's not as uncommon as it used to be. Small bore is still the "standard" but it's not at all uncommon to find guys playing bigger equipment. JJ's sound paradigm made a bunch of guys go that route, as did Slide and Curtis's outsized influence. Yes, JJ played a small bore most of his career, but his sound was huge.

A lot of Salsa guys have been playing large horns recently as well... I saw a video a while back of a section of straight Bach 42s, and I've heard of guys using the .525 and 547 bore yamahas. Not for me, that stuff is enough of a workout and I like the narrow slide, but for the guys that make it work, the sound is awesome.

A number of people in NYC are playing .525 and .547 horns.  In addition to those already mentioned, Nick Finzer plays a 3B+ these days, and Nick Vayenas has been playing a 4B lately.  Both sound great.

Add J Roseman, Steve Davis, Andre Hayward, and Steve Turre to the list.m

I often play on a .525 bore/8.5" bell trigger Shires w/a larger than 6.5AL m'pce if I know I'm not going to need to play much lead. I have it set up to be fairly dark and it's just too much work to brighten it up sufficiently to cut through most NYC large ensembles. I love the way it plays and sounds. The extra strength in the lower registers...plus being able to avoid much 6th/7th position playing down there...gives me almost another whole octave to use as a soloist compared to smaller horns/m'pces. I especially like it in 3 or 4 horn jazz groups. The sound it gets in unison w/a good tenor player is enormous!!!

The earliest prominent jazz trombonist that I know to play larger equipment was Jimmy Knepper on his Bach 42 bell/36 slide/6.5AL m'pce. A glorious sound!!! After him? Curtis Fuller on an Olds Opera, I believe. Or was it a big Holton? I forget. Then Slide Hampton, then all of the people mentioned above.

S.

Wanna venture that large-bore jazz is largely an East-Coast thing.

As someone who moved to LA from Philly/NYC, many moons ago...I miss it!

A King 4b with 6.5ish mouthpiece works well as a big jazz horn

Jean-Nicolas Trottier, who's a pretty big name in Canada, plays on a Bach 42BO.

I do. About 50% of the time. Lots of people do.

Common also in Europe. and the west coast. Brazil. Raul de Souza.
If you include 525, common pretty much everywhere. There are New Orleans guys playing larger horns, plus a lot of the trombone shout band guys too.
Fred Wesley. Ray Anderson. Glenn Ferris. Connie Bauer. Jimmy Bosch. Julian Priester.
Pretty much everybody who doesn't do only 1st trombone parts in a big band!
When does the exception become the rule?

Yes, there's a convergence going on. Brass players are using larger horns and m/p's, and having had a similar education and being fearful about putting their heads above the parapet are tending to sound more and more like each other. And this is at a time when when there are fewer work opportunities than ever..

IMO, find your own voice but also be mindful or where you're playing, whichever bore size you own.

I don't think those people sound more and more like each other.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Phil Wilson or Slide Hampton played on large bore horns for jazz. I think for years P.W. played a Conn 6H. S.H. I think played on a Getzen "The Dude" at one time, and in every jazz album it looks like he's holding a small bore horn. Anyone?

Slide played a pretty big horn. Ask David Gibson or Michael Dease about it. I'm pretty sure the horn I saw him with last time I saw him was large enough to smuggle dolphins in. That doesn't preclude him having played smaller equipment, like I know he did at one point in his career when he was younger, as evidenced by photographs. Check out this photo - here he's clearly playing a canon: https://news.allaboutjazz.com/jazz-musician-of-the-day-slide-hampton__8897.php

Phil Wilson played a yamaha 841 custom. That doesn't mean that he played one for his entire career. But he did play one - I think he was actually endorsing yamaha at that point. The 841 had a .551 bore.

Lol. What horns are these, held by young Mister Slide Hampton



...Geezer

Phil Wilson for years played a Conn 6H, and appeared on advertisements for that instrument
https://www.terapeak.com/worth/1976-phil-wilson-on-the-conn-6h-trombone-vintage-print-ad/232139179097/
With Woody Herman he appears to have played a small bore horn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyJy1d_SAzY
his use of playing on a large bore horn is probably mostly due to being involved in education and teaching.

Slide Hampton, appears to have played a small bore all throughout his younger career
https://www.amazon.com/Sister-Salvation-Somethin-Sanctified-Birdland/dp/B006NYQKW4/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494164416&sr=1-4&keywords=slide+hampton
https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Slide-Hampton/dp/B003Y5WY6G/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494165394&sr=1-17&keywords=slide+hampton

Slide's use of playing on large bore is connected to his teaching at major universities in the late 70's.

The connection seems to be higher education= large bore. Free lance/Jazz musician= small bore.

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Today at 06:45 AMPhil Wilson for years played a Conn 6H, and appeared on advertisements for that instrument
https://www.terapeak.com/worth/1976-phil-wilson-on-the-conn-6h-trombone-vintage-print-ad/232139179097/
With Woody Herman he appears to have played a small bore horn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyJy1d_SAzY
his use of playing on a large bore horn is probably mostly due to being involved in education and teaching.

Slide Hampton, appears to have played a small bore all throughout his younger career
https://www.amazon.com/Sister-Salvation-Somethin-Sanctified-Birdland/dp/B006NYQKW4/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494164416&sr=1-4&keywords=slide+hampton
https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Slide-Hampton/dp/B003Y5WY6G/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494165394&sr=1-17&keywords=slide+hampton

Slide's use of playing on large bore is connected to his teaching at major universities in the late 70's.

The connection seems to be higher education= large bore. Free lance/Jazz musician= small bore.


Look at the size of those chops! I'm envious! I gotta wonder what size and config mpc he was using at that time. He certainly never lacked for either high range or technique!

Story goes that he played left-handed b/c that's how his first trombone was handed to him. Lol

That's a very interesting connection you have made!

...Geezer

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Today at 06:45 AM
The connection seems to be higher education= large bore. Free lance/Jazz musician= small bore.


That's not very far off, Arrowhead.

A couple of comments:

Very few high-level universities and conservatories have a dedicated small bore player on their faculty anymore, and very few large bore-playing faculty seem to understand the acoustic, stylistic and endurance advantages of smaller equipment in the workaday world. Students are "encouraged"...in Emory Remington's case, absolutely required...to play a large bore tenor if they are going to have success in their academic career, and the result is that many college-level large jazz ensembles...and even worse, high school ensembles...have a trombone section that sounds like a euphonium section and/or a herd of elephants in the classic jazz repertoire. They are using a large hammer for work that would be better done with a sharp knife.

But...as almost always, the academic scene is way behind the working scene.

About the "Freelance/Jazz musician = small bore" thing? I think it is rapidly becoming Freelance/Jazz musician = using the right horn for the job." It certainly is in NYC, and I suspect that the same thing is true in many other thriving musical centers. Everbody and his brother seems to have at least 3 instruments...a small tenor, a larger tenor w/a trigger and a bass, and almost everybody plays those three horns pretty well. They may prefer one over the others, but work is work. In fact, more and more players are playing tuba and euphonium as well. This complicates things for a player somewhat...more practice time and a better understanding of how air and embouchure interact are both needed...but it also opens up new avenues both in the way people play the horn and in what kinds of jobs are available for them.

Evolution in action...

S.

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 07:12 AMLook at the size of those chops! I'm envious! I gotta wonder what size and config mpc he was using at that time. He certainly never lacked for either high range or technique!

Story goes that he played left-handed b/c that's how his first trombone was handed to him. Lol

That's a very interesting connection you have made!

...Geezer

You also need to remember that in his prime, Slide was a fierce practicer. Marathon practice sessions, every day that he was home.

Marathon!!!

S.

Quote from: sabutin on Today at 07:22 AMYou also need to remember that in his prime, Slide was a fierce practicer. Marathon practice sessions, every day that he was home.

Marathon!!!

S.

THAT is very inspiring, Sam. I don't know how you came to know this, but I believe you.

Funny thing is, even growing up 3 miles away from his birthplace - I never heard of him until I picked up an album. He was the best-kept local secret. There should be a "Slide Hampton Day" in Jeannette, Pennsylvania!

I hope he is okay. I think maybe he is retired now. Last time I heard him, he was playing jazz on a large-bore horn and sounding utterly fabulous. It can be done. But I believe it takes a Slide Hampton or the like to pull it off!

...Geezer

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Yesterday at 05:43 PM I think played on a Getzen "The Dude" at one time, and in every jazz album it looks like he's holding a small bore horn. Anyone?

That's not a "Dude," dude. That's a Super Deluxe--a .500 bore horn at the top of Getzen's line at that time. You can tell by the slide handles and the copper ferrules. Of course, no pro ever played one of those, EVER, so I'm not sure why it's on those album covers. 

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 07:56 AMTHAT is very inspiring, Sam. I don't know how you came to know this, but I believe you.

Funny thing is, even growing up 3 miles away from his birthplace - I never heard of him until I picked up an album. He was the best-kept local secret. There should be a "Slide Hampton Day" in Jeannette, Pennsylvania!

I hope he is okay. I think maybe he is retired now. Last time I heard him, he was playing jazz on a large-bore horn and sounding utterly fabulous. It can be done. But I believe it takes a Slide Hampton or the like to pull it off!

...Geezer

It's common knowledge among NYC trombonists. I was never really close to Slide...our paths just didn't cross much...but many friends of mine have told me stories about going to his apartment or house fairly early early in the day and finding him hard at work on the horn. They'd take a lesson, play some duets...whatever...and when they left he'd be right back on the axe.

Inspiring.

S.

Some great points above!

Getting back to the original question, it could be rephrased as "what Jazz cats exclusively play a large bore instrument when only playing Jazz?" The only bone players I can think of is Curtis Fuller, Robin Eubanks, Fred Lonzo and Fred Wesley...I'm sure there are others....
I have seen a few New Orleans street musicians use them, but I think it's mostly because they couldn't afford anything else.
I have also run into cats that have more of a natural trumpet embouchure - a laser like focus to their sound, yet they play trombone and can pull off playing Jazz on a large bore horn, but those are quite rare....

Do most trombone players have multiple horns in their arsenal? Absolutely! As do I, but I know that if I have any sort of jazz gig coming up there's no way I'm going to use a large bore F-att. horn. Conversely, if I have to play marches and a bunch of ceremonial music, I'm not going to bust out my Olds Special.
I've learned this the hard way! I used to subscribe to the "one horn for everything" mentality and through slow trial and error I realized that it just wasn't working. 
In higher education there can be a (ironically) lack of education about horns.

Quote from: Euphanasia on Today at 09:01 AMThat's not a "Dude," dude. That's a Super Deluxe--a .500 bore horn at the top of Getzen's line at that time. You can tell by the slide handles and the copper ferrules. Of course, no pro ever played one of those, EVER, so I'm not sure why it's on those album covers. 

Ah, thanks Euphanasia

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 07:56 AMTHAT is very inspiring, Sam. I don't know how you came to know this, but I believe you.

Funny thing is, even growing up 3 miles away from his birthplace - I never heard of him until I picked up an album. He was the best-kept local secret. There should be a "Slide Hampton Day" in Jeannette, Pennsylvania!

I hope he is okay. I think maybe he is retired now. Last time I heard him, he was playing jazz on a large-bore horn and sounding utterly fabulous. It can be done. But I believe it takes a Slide Hampton or the like to pull it off!

...Geezer

Slide is an incredible inspiration and for sure practiced a ton. Here he is at his 85th birthday celebration - still sounding great:

https://youtu.be/GTwlk-kJNfQ

Quote from: Malec Heermans on Today at 03:09 PMSlide is an incredible inspiration and for sure practiced a ton. Here he is at his 85th birthday celebration - still sounding great:

https://youtu.be/GTwlk-kJNfQ

Thank you!

That looks like a pretty big horn he was sporting!

...Geezer

Being relatively new starter on tbone and on this forum, I found out about Slide Hampton through this thread. But I should admit, his bell look monstrous compared to Bill Watrous'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNPKnjoYHg

At first I even asked myself if this wasn't bass...

Slide Hampton played a straight bass trombone, .562 with no trigger. German maker, maybe Schmelzer? Bass trombone mouthpiece, like a 1 1/2. Many of his students and protégés were playing on similar equipment in the 90s and 2000s.

Quote from: JacobGarchik on Today at 07:09 AMSlide Hampton played a straight bass trombone, .562 with no trigger. German maker, maybe Schmelzer? Bass trombone mouthpiece, like a 1 1/2. Many of his students and protégés were playing on similar equipment in the 90s and 2000s.

Well then, he had himself one bad-ass set of chops, to be able to play as high as he did - sustained!

And if you go back up to a previous post of mine to look at the album cover on the left - that old beat up Conn ain't no bass trombone and that certainly doesn't look like a 1 1/2G mpc. Okay, so maybe at that time he was in his early 30's and players evolve. But as I listen to him play on that album, he didn't lack for technique nor tone!!!!!!!!!!!!

...Geezer

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Yesterday at 02:16 PMGetting back to the original question, it could be rephrased as "what Jazz cats exclusively play a large bore instrument when only playing Jazz?" The only bone players I can think of is Curtis Fuller, Robin Eubanks, Fred Lonzo and Fred Wesley...I'm sure there are others....
Slide as far as I know has played large bore (bass bore) exclusively for the last few decades. Same with the other guys mentioned earlier.

No one was requiring "F-att" in the OP, or the list would be much smaller.

Oh I meant to add that I think Slide started playing on that horn in the 90s. and yes, he played really high on it too!
And yes, as I said before, quite a few players who only play on large bore trombones and only play jazz! Many more than mentioned.

Also see, off the top of my head: Andy Hunter, Jonathan Volzok, Avi Lebo, Steve Davis (not sure if his is 525 or 547), Reut Regev, George Lewis (recently), Tyshawn Sorey, Jonathan Arons, Sam Blaser, Curtis Hasselbring, and Brett Sroka.

Here is an interesting video. Slide Hampton plays Dixieland and Swing on the large bore.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ux7-R_CMeU

Quote from: Trombocholik on May 13, 2017, 12:56PMHere is an interesting video. Slide Hampton plays Dixieland and Swing on the large bore.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ux7-R_CMeU


Nice! Slide sounds like he is in top form on that large-bore. So now I'm wondering if he was essentially self-taught or if he studied under someone.

Sam mentioned Slide's picking up a large-bore horn as a result of his university master-class teaching & involvement. That makes sense.

...Geezer

I met Slide when he came for a gig at a small club called Gramophon in Istanbul in summer 1998. He would also play with the Dizzy Alumni Big Band the next day. Anyways, I went to that club earlier and saw he was already there. I had a chance to have nice long chat with Slide, who I met one of the most generous artist and human being. On that evening he was playing with a Bach 42 and a Bach 5G mouthpiece. Slide was dominating the band. That was a great evening for us, who are living at the other side of the pond that the great Milt Jackson was playing the piano. After a long gig, that turned to a jam session and the great Turkish pianist Aydin Esen sat on a piano to play couple of tunes with them as well.

Quote from: Exzaclee on Mar 31, 2017, 01:14PM
A lot of Salsa guys have been playing large horns recently as well... I saw a video a while back of a section of straight Bach 42s, and I've heard of guys using the .525 and 547 bore yamahas. Not for me, that stuff is enough of a workout and I like the narrow slide, but for the guys that make it work, the sound is awesome.

Was glad to read this!  I use a straight bach 42 for my salsa playing (thought I was the only one!).  I love the sound, and don't mind the little bit of extra air.  Have gotten lots of props from other players on it!

I'm listening to Al Grey on YouTube right now and I have to wonder if he is on a large-bore horn. His sound (with or sans plunger) was huge!

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jun 27, 2017, 02:20PMI'm listening to Al Grey on YouTube right now and I have to wonder if he is on a large-bore horn. His sound (with or sans plunger) was huge!

...Geezer

Conn 6H, I believe a 7C m'pce. "Huge" is too small a word. he could cover he enire Basie band with no mike.

S.

Quote from: sabutin on Yesterday at 04:54 AMConn 6H, I believe a 7C m'pce. "Huge" is too small a word. he could cover he enire Basie band with no mike.

S.

Thanks, Sam.

A Conn 6H! Really! I mean, I know a 6H can cut, but to get such a - powerfully beefy - sound from that equipment is off the charts. And his high range was totally wicked. Yes, there are plenty of guys who could play higher, but certainly not with the intensity he had.

Whew!

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Yesterday at 05:29 AMThanks, Sam.

A Conn 6H! Really! I mean, I know a 6H can cut, but to get such a - powerfully beefy - sound from that equipment is off the charts. And his high range was totally wicked. Yes, there are plenty of guys who could play higher, but certainly not with the intensity he had.

Whew!

...Geezer

He also played a Selmer Bolero.... very underrated horn though not a large bore at 0.508" Check him out  on 'The More I see You' fantastic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ZF49za1wg


bellEnd

Quote from: Bellend on Jun 29, 2017, 03:47AMHe also played a Selmer Bolero.... very underrated horn though not a large bore at 0.508" Check him out  on 'The More I see You' fantastic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ZF49za1wg

bellEnd

I have to wonder how he might have sounded on a large-bore horn.

That vid is not available in the US. However, this one is:

The More I See You

When I listen to that vid, I can hear the brightness of a small-bore horn. But his sound is at the same time - huge.

Anyway, I know this thread is all about jazz artists who play large-bore horns. But I had to wonder what he played on b/c he sounded  like he was playing on a larger horn than he really was!

I also wonder if there were (or are) other notable artists who convincingly play bass trombone on a single-valve .567 bore (or smaller) horn such as George Roberts did. The reason I ask is b/c in addition to my small & medium-bore horns, I am currently also playing a vintage Conn 88H; trying to get the low trigger notes - and pedals - to sound musically pleasing on a ballad. Or am I wasting my time?

...Geezer

What size mouthpiece are you using on your 88? Bear in mind that George Roberts was playing a bass, but he was also playing a bass mouthpiece. Smaller than most players have today, for sure, but still bigger than a 6.5AL.  I've not known many people who could pull off a really convincing low register on a piece that small --- though I do know a few who can.

Quote from: Matt K on Jun 29, 2017, 07:55AMWhat size mouthpiece are you using on your 88? Bear in mind that George Roberts was playing a bass, but he was also playing a bass mouthpiece. Smaller than most players have today, for sure, but still bigger than a 6.5AL.  I've not known many people who could pull off a really convincing low register on a piece that small --- though I do know a few who can.

Lol. Maybe I can be one of the pioneers!

I have a stock Remington mpc that came with the horn from the factory. Presumably, they knew what they were doing? I also have the usual suspects lined up; Bach 6.5's, 5's and the 1.5G. I'm progressing well on the Remington right now and as long as I am - I might as well stick with it and also give the horn a fair chance at being a tenor as well.

Perhaps there will come a time when I will want to seek out a .567 bore single-trigger horn and see if I can progress on that as well. I may want to stop trying to be a high tenor someday and extend my shelf life as a low tenor and/or bass. But don't look for me to pick up a dual-trigger horn any time in this life. Not gonna happen. lol

P.S. My 88H is out for a 75K mile tune-up right now, so I'm practicing playing as low as possible on my King 3B/F. I just played through "I'm In The Mood For Love" in the key of C - down one octave, with a Bach 7 mpc. It was almost musical, so I think there is incentive to at least try to play bass on a large-bore tenor horn.

...Geezer

They at least knew what worked well for Mr. Remington.  The good news is that if that doesn't work out that not many others want a single plug so you'll be able to pick one up at a good price!

I liked the low range on the 3BF I had, though I'm one of the players using a relatively large rim size - XT104N (1.04").  So whatever I may lose by not specializing and sticking to a smaller piece, the tradeoff that I get is that the low stuff speaks quite well on basically any size horn I use it on. But the 3BF spoke quite well down there with it.

Quote from: Matt K on Jun 29, 2017, 09:53AMThey at least knew what worked well for Mr. Remington.  The good news is that if that doesn't work out that not many others want a single plug so you'll be able to pick one up at a good price!

I liked the low range on the 3BF I had, though I'm one of the players using a relatively large rim size - XT104N (1.04").  So whatever I may lose by not specializing and sticking to a smaller piece, the tradeoff that I get is that the low stuff speaks quite well on basically any size horn I use it on. But the 3BF spoke quite well down there with it.

True, but I think it is equally true that all of the Bach mpcs worked well for the players who inspired the variations of designs that Bach marketed. It doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't work for us.

I've done some searches and it appears the Conn 72H is a popular choice for a single plug, as you put it. So is the new Kanstul. Neither one are inexpensive, if in the best condition. So for me or anyone aspiring to play a single-trigger bass trombone who is now playing a single-trigger large-bore tenor, we would probably do well to make nice with the single-trigger large-bore tenor first before we plunk down the money for the single-trigger bass 'bone.

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jun 29, 2017, 01:41PM
I've done some searches and it appears the Conn 72H is a popular choice for a single plug, as you put it. So is the new Kanstul. Neither one are inexpensive, if in the best condition. So for me or anyone aspiring to play a single-trigger bass trombone who is now playing a single-trigger large-bore tenor, we would probably do well to make nice with the single-trigger large-bore tenor first before we plunk down the money for the single-trigger bass 'bone.

...Geezer

What about this?

https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/trombones/tenor-trombone/pbf555-trombone/

Check the specs'. I'll be going past the Wessex store soon, may give it a play..

Quote from: Pre59 on Jun 29, 2017, 03:18PMWhat about this?

https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/trombones/tenor-trombone/pbf555-trombone/

Check the specs'. I'll be going past the Wessex store soon, may give it a play..

That's a sharp looking 'bone! But isn't the bell a bit small for a large sound in bass?

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jun 29, 2017, 03:36PMThat's a sharp looking 'bone! But isn't the bell a bit small for a large sound in bass?

...Geezer

Don't know about that, but it could be a good horn for playing lower melodic pieces on, and for 4th/bass in a more traditional big-band setting.

It's not too far from the instrument George Roberts played, or the type of bass used by the likes of Bart Varselona back in the early days of 4th in Big Band being a bass.

It's not too far from the instrument George Roberts played, or the type of bass used by the likes of Bart Varselona back in the early days of 4th in Big Band being a bass.