Getting used to positions quickly

[TBoneHalfNote]

That's of course nonsense that I requested in the thread subject but please can you help me with identifying a basic method of navigating the trombone?

Since I'm an adult amateur trumept-sax-clarinet-guitar-piano-violin-you_name_it "player" I know my scales, arps, etc. I know basic fundamental brass techniques so all I need to get started on trombone is a good steady approach method to moving the slide in a logical way and getting used to the intonation corrections.

I was thinking about what would be the best approach and I figure that the chromatic scale is not it. It could work well for trumpet (and it did for me) but I feel that trombone needs some different and more melodic-diatonic approach.

Maybe start from the most common and "useful" (for a trombone beginner) scales along with some simple melodious etudes/simple Evergreen heads?
My intention is a general Jazz/Pop style, with simple impros on top. However that's a far goal and at the moment when just starting out I need to move the slide into correct position and hear the right note in terms of intonation. I perfectly understand that playing trombone in tune is a life-time perseverance.

Please help me with my question possibly from your "retrospective perspective" (hope this sounds right in English) and without 'Get a teacher' cliche.

[AndrewMeronek]

If you already have a background on other instruments, I think the best thing to do is a lot of sight-reading. Scales are useful, but you only really learn the scale patterns if that's all you do.

Thus, sight-reading, perhaps with a slide position chart handy for the times when the brain backfires.

And - this is very important - get used to using the slide to tweak notes into tune and not your embouchure. Tone should be centered and beautiful at all times, and trying to lip notes around when you don't need to just makes things a lot harder.

[TBoneHalfNote]

If you already have a background on other instruments, I think the best thing to do is a lot of sight-reading. Scales are useful, but you only really learn the scale patterns if that's all you do.

Thus, sight-reading, perhaps with a slide position chart handy for the times when the brain backfires.

And - this is very important - get used to using the slide to tweak notes into tune and not your embouchure. Tone should be centered and beautiful at all times, and trying to lip notes around when you don't need to just makes things a lot harder.

Thanks for the tip on sliding and not lipping! I guess I should watch that carefully when coming from trumpet. However, it's very interesting... does it possibly have a downside?

Regarding sight reading: I feel that it will destract me from getting used to the instrument in the beginning if you know what I mean. Besides, I should confess - I'm not a good sight reader. Honestly saying, not a sight reader at all. I often only use a score to memorise a theme and then play it by memory.

[StevenC]

Thanks for the tip on sliding and not lipping! I guess I should watch that carefully when coming from trumpet. However, it's very interesting... does it possibly have a downside?

I can't think of a downside. As trombonists, we can play perfectly in tune without messing with tuning slides or tiring our face. Valves are discrete approximations for what the slide gives us.

[Doug Elliott]

'Get a teacher' is not a cliche. There are things that you can struggle with for years but a good teacher can fix in 10 minutes.

You already play violin so you shouldn't have any real trouble with the concept of the slide. I always suggest simplifying. 1st position is almost obvious, so choose two or three other positions to learn first. 2 and 4 are good starting points. Practice Bb - A - G, tuning them carefully so you know the feeling of those. F - E - D the same way. Now add G in 4th.

Nobody really knows where 5th is and 6th is almost all the way out. Forget about 7th, you don't need it

3rd is between 2nd and 4th.

Now you're ready for a gig.

[AndrewMeronek]

Thanks for the tip on sliding and not lipping! I guess I should watch that carefully when coming from trumpet. However, it's very interesting... does it possibly have a downside?

I can't think of a downside. As trombonists, we can play perfectly in tune without messing with tuning slides or tiring our face. Valves are discrete approximations for what the slide gives us.

Yup, no downside. I'd argue that this actually reflects a downside of using valves.

As for sight-reading, if you aren't comfortable with that, the ear-based equivalent would be to go to a whole bunch of recordings and just imitate tons of melodies. The point is to force you to deal with novel patterns which will force you to really learn the instrument's layout instead of relying on a few patterns that won't help you in all circumstances.

Don't get me wrong: scales and arpeggios are useful, too. But too many people who never get beyond amateur enthusiasm never move beyond scales and when they get to a gig where there are other patterns in the music besides scales (almost every gig) they end up finding a big hill to climb.

[TBoneHalfNote]

...

Nobody really knows where 5th is and 6th is almost all the way out. Forget about 7th, you don't need it

3rd is between 2nd and 4th.

Now you're ready for a gig.

Doug - sorry for my deficiency of the sense of humor if it applies here. Are you serious about the 6th position not being used much in trombone playing? I have a few printouts of trombone scales and...
... wait i'm just looking at the chromatic scales...

So, here is what I'm reading:
Suppose we start on Bb on the second line of the bass clef - by the way is that a direct equivalent of the open low C on trumpet? - and go up in half steps and... yes - you might be right: it's positions 1(Bb)-7(B)-6(etc.)-5-4-3-2(7)-1(6)-5,
so when we reach E-nat on the third space the things start to tend to stay in the first five positions with the 5th pos. coming on F# on the 4th line and then the slide extension is limted even more.

Does it mean that majority of (average) trombone players do not feel themseves comfortable playing in alternative 'far reach' positions when going up?

[TBoneHalfNote]

...As for sight-reading, if you aren't comfortable with that, the ear-based equivalent would be to go to a whole bunch of recordings and just imitate tons of melodies. The point is to force you to deal with novel patterns which will force you to really learn the instrument's layout instead of relying on a few patterns that won't help you in all circumstances.

Don't get me wrong: scales and arpeggios are useful, too. But too many people who never get beyond amateur enthusiasm never move beyond scales and when they get to a gig where there are other patterns in the music besides scales (almost every gig) they end up finding a big hill to climb.

Andrew - I get your point but I'm not a great ear player either. That is, I can deal with the intonation decently but when it comes to playing purely by ear I get lost. I mostly rely on patterns over a given harmony. No, I'm not a Coltrane fan of his digital patterns per se but rather I will rely on the chord tone structure when moving between downbeat notes.

[TBoneHalfNote]

As to the sight reading I have a copy of '40 Progressive etudes for trombone' by Sigmund Hering.
They are really easy and I clearly see what harmonic ideas he used to compose them. However I should probably rely on his experience in teaching rather than trying to analyse the score.

[Doug Elliott]

DO NOT START ON LOW Bb (2nd line)

Start an octave higher - middle Bb

It's called "middle" for a reason.

[ghmerrill]

I find that on occasion while playing my straight tenor I need to play a B-natural in the staff (and somewhat more frequently a C-natural). This is very inconvenient for me and must be regarded as a design deficiency of the instrument.

[TBoneHalfNote]

I don't want to claim that I've just discoverd America (our local idiom) but I've examined the chromatic scale and I see that it's almost exact match to the trumpet fingering when going up the scale in terms of the tubing length.
The only difference that is obvious to me is when we hitting the F# on the second ledger line the standrad trumpet fingering would be 5 and for trombone #3 is suggested first. Next for G #2 is offered while for trumpet the standard is 4. After than we are back to "trumpet normal" on A and A# and finally "high Bb" (If that's the correct term for trombone) with 3-2-1. That would be my top range goal in the near future if I manage to get there.

[TBoneHalfNote]

DO NOT START ON LOW Bb (2nd line)

Start an octave higher - middle Bb

It's called "middle" for a reason.

Doug - please explain!
On trumpet I always treat low C a home base: I'm not a natural high pitch player.
Would low Bb(2 in Bass clef) be a direct equivalent of low C (first line below the Treble clef) on trumpet?

[BGuttman]

B natural (2nd line of the bass staff, and equivalent to C# in transposed treble) is very uncommon in most band and Big Band music. It's tough to reach because most of us have arms that conveniently reach 6, but need to stretch to reach 7. Orchestras play more in sharp keys and thus that B natural is more common. That's one reason most of us Orchestral players tend to use instruments with F-attachments so that the B natural is in a long 2nd with the trigger.

The "meat" range of a tenor trombone generally goes from F in the bass staff to F an octave higher. In trumpet language, this is G to G. Most of the notes (with one exception) can be played between 1 and 4. And going higher, 4 is needed less and less.

[TBoneHalfNote]

Thanks Bruce for the useful tips!
Unfortunately the forum does not offer 'likes' so there is only this ancient way to express my gratitude and you all are a great help!

[BGuttman]

Just looking to make it as smooth as possible and keep you from making mistakes.

[TBoneHalfNote]

Actually, yes - in a couple of method books I own they say: "Start on F in the staff; it's the easiest note on tenor trombone".
You would ask me why I don't want to use method books. Well, I probably should start from the basic ideas but skip the 'Mary had a little lamb' to a more mature part in the books. However they are usually written in such a way that they start slowly (having a complete music beginner in mind) and it's difficult arrive at some 'meaty part' in a logical manner without skipping the 'Mary...' steps.

[Doug Elliott]

"On trumpet I always treat low C a home base: I'm not a natural high pitch player."

Hmmmm... Think it might be related?

If low C is treated as the middle, anything above that is high.

[AndrewMeronek]

I don't want to claim that I've just discoverd America (our local idiom) but I've examined the chromatic scale and I see that it's almost exact match to the trumpet fingering when going up the scale in terms of the tubing length.
The only difference that is obvious to me is when we hitting the F# on the second ledger line the standrad trumpet fingering would be 5 and for trombone #3 is suggested first. Next for G #2 is offered while for trumpet the standard is 4. After than we are back to "trumpet normal" on A and A# and finally "high Bb" (If that's the correct term for trombone) with 3-2-1. That would be my top range goal in the near future if I manage to get there.

Yes, exactly. The trumpet notes on the 7th partial are generally avoided because they're out of tune with the valves and there aren't too many good ways to compensate for that. However, on trombone, we have the slide.

There's actually some pretty neat physics involved in how partials on wind instruments work. It's not quite as simple as people who haven't investigated that might assume.

I am reminding myself that I wrote up an introduction to trombone a few months ago. It's intended for newer students who don't have other musical background, so some of it won't apply here. But maybe some things in it might help nonetheless.

https://andrewmeronek.com/2018/09/19/le ... uirements/

As far as alternate positions goes, they're used commonly but for a different reason than on the valved instruments like a trumpet. On trumpet, alternate fingerings are used for three reasons: to make some fingering patterns easier, for some rare special valve effects, and for intonation. On trombone, intonation isn't an issue. You can get a valve-like special effect by alternating quickly between two positions that can sound the same note, kind of like trilling the 3rd valve on a E4. Two more common reasons to use alternate positions on trombone are to reduce the amount of direction changes in a passage, and to enable some 'natural' slurs which can be executed without using the tongue.

For example, Eb-G-Bb-G-Eb as an arpeggio can be played in positions 3-4-1-4-3 or 3-4-5-4-3. The latter is way easier, and that latter pattern also allows the entire thing to be slurred sans tongue if desired; whereas 3-4-1-4-3 will need tongue added to avoid a gliss from 4-1.

[TBoneHalfNote]

Thank you Andrew, I'll check it and thank you for the clarification on the alternate positions.
I guess I don't have to worry about them at the moment and better stick to what is most common.

By the way, I checked Rubank I & II and they are actually not that bad. Maybe I should start with them in order to somehow organize myself instead of simply aimlessly running the scales.

Edit: Yes, I went through Rubank and I think that's a good idea. Following the mehtod I hopefully won't make at least bad mistakes in fundamental sliding. It actually cleverly shows were to use 1 and 6 interchangeably for instance.
This should give me some sense of security.

Edit 2: Well, I had a quick look at the Clarke's method for trombone and I must admit even at the very beginning he gives very useful exercises that I wouldn't figure out on my own like 1_Bb - 1_F - 6_F - 6_C.
Definitely I should follow the methods and not invent the wheel...

[ghmerrill]

B natural (2nd line of the bass staff, and equivalent to C# in transposed treble) is very uncommon in most band and Big Band music.

Well, this may depend on what "very common" means and what pieces and arrangements you're playing. It's probably a good generalization for 1st parts, but in my experience B-naturals in the staff are encountered quite frequently in the 3rd part, and with surprising frequency in the 2nd part. They're also not unheard of in the 1st part, especially if you're playing certain types of music or arrangements. At least that's the experience I've had, particularly in the band I've been playing bass trombone in for the past couple of years.

As an example, among the eight pieces we're currently working on, that B-natural appears in:

Overture to "Candide" (Berstein) -- 3rd part
Concertino for Clarinet (von Weber) -- 2nd and 3rd parts
My Fair Lady -- all 3 trombone parts
Salute to American Jazz (Nestico) -- 3rd part
The Symphonic Gershwin (arr. Barker) -- 3rd part

And this is not unusual for the stuff we play on a continuing basis. Orchestral transcriptions are, of course, full of stuff like this (and also stuff like making tubas play the string bass part and euphs play the 'cello part!!).

I think my view is that if I'd need to play the B-natural in some pieces for virtually every performance -- in the 2nd part -- then I'd regard it as fairly common. It's also VERY common in a lot of simple/medium mixed ensemble pieces for holiday performance (which often seem to be in keys that people feel more comfortable singing in).

I don't think I'd be happy with any trombone on which I couldn't play a well pitched and reliable B-natural in the staff (even though, for me it can be pain-inducing owing to shoulder arthritis). But maybe if you just stick to 1st parts in certain kinds of music, you can avoid it.

[TBoneHalfNote]

DO NOT START ON LOW Bb (2nd line)
Start an octave higher - middle Bb
It's called "middle" for a reason.

However, Doug - why does Clarke start exactly on low Bb on the second line in his exercise #1 ? Then he proceeds a few steps DOWN in the following exercises.
Rubank on the contrary goes in the opposite direction from F(4th line) - UP right from the start.

Does it matter much and why do these methods start in some mild contradiction to each other?
Very soon however they equalize in covering the same range but what I've noticed is quite obvious.

[Doug Elliott]

Stupid books start on low Bb.

[AndrewMeronek]

LOL

Doug is an embouchure expert. Starting around middle Bb (and considering that the 'middle') makes for forming better playing habits right from the get-go and makes it harder to develop some embouchure problems.

[Doubler]

After struggling on my own, using my previous knowledge of music, harmonics, etc., I took a gamble and spent almost $15 on the three Rubank Method books and found the system to be remarkable in its building just what I needed in a progressive manner. It made playing and understanding the trombone easy. Prior to using Rubank, I had indicated slide positions in pencil on whatever I was trying to learn. After a few pages into Rubank, I erased all the pencil marks I had made and never used them again. The Rubank Method puts everything into context and perspective and enabled me to advance faster than I expected. Did I mention affordability?

[TBoneHalfNote]

Stupid books start on low Bb.

So was it only his book stupid and not Clarke himself according to you Doug? (I hope so)

[Pre59]

To OP, I've attached a note/position chart, I suggest that that you print it out and give it some "eye time".

[Savio]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20xyxkd4g3ybi ... n.jpg?dl=0

Its maybe told before but, melodies you know played bye ear. Scales of course. Maybe start without sheet music so focus is on your ears and arm. Also playing a interval and repeat until you hit the intonation and the movement become more secure. Take some time......not so many shortcuts. Play a lot. HOW is more important than WHAT you play.
Happy "sliding"

Leif

[TBoneHalfNote]

To OP, I've attached a note/position chart, I suggest that that you print it out and give it some "eye time".

Thank you but you probably misinterpreted my idea. It's not really about the notes (by the way there are better charts in standard notation) but how to get the 'feel of it' while understanding what you do of course.

[TBoneHalfNote]

...Take some time......not so many shortcuts. Play a lot. HOW is more important than WHAT you play.
Happy "sliding"
Leif

Oh, yes Leif - I agree, there are no shortcuts in music.

[EZSlider]

This helped me a lot

[greenbean]

Stupid books start on low Bb.

I love it!

[Pre59]

To OP, I've attached a note/position chart, I suggest that that you print it out and give it some "eye time".

Thank you but you probably misinterpreted my idea. It's not really about the notes (by the way there are better charts in standard notation) but how to get the 'feel of it' while understanding what you do of course.

I made a grid note chart because at the time I couldn't find one anywhere. The main reasons being to find scale and chord patterns, and the shortest distances between notes. A standard notation chart wouldn't have helped as much.

[harrisonreed]

Brad edwards' book "lip slurs", and the cello drones on youtube

[txtimmy]

EZSlider, that chart is inspired for visualizing the alternate positions.

[baileyman]

That's of course nonsense that I requested in the thread subject but please can you help me with identifying a basic method of navigating the trombone?...

Play games while reading simple music, concert band, etc.

• Play so the slide moves in one direction as long as possible, then move in the other.
  Play everything as close as possible.
  Play everything as far as possible.
  Play without tongue utilizing natural slurs.
  Play a different position than the guy next to you, no matter what.

(Are the bullets working right?)