High note technique

[CharlieB]

Saw this on YouTube, and thought I'd post it here for discussion.........

[Bach5G]

#9???

[BGuttman]

I agree. #9 is bo-oo-gus.

Some of the other stuff is a little dicey.

But there is no magic dust that wil make you have a range like Tommy Dorsey. It takes hard work and is gained a note at a time.

[sirisobhakya]

For me, only increasing air speed does not help much. I have to increase my air support as well.

For #9, my high trombone embouchure and beginner trumpet embouchure are totally irrelevant to each other.

[timothy42b]

He's naturally a high placement embouchure and has no idea that others exist. He may be able to play high range (he really doesn't demonstrate any) but I think he has little understanding of how it works.

I suspect if you follow his advice it will take Doug about a year to fix your bad habits! Hee, hee.

[AndrewMeronek]

The guy definitely has chop strength, but I can tell from his mid-register sound that he's forcing some things away from his natural mechanics. I don't want to be too hard on the guy - some of this is perfectly fine advice and he's obviously pretty sharp. A lot of it "not quite right" from my understanding. I think he'd benefit from a lesson from an embouchure specialist like Doug Elliot or Dave Wilken, though, if not to improve his playing, but to improve how he presents his information.

My take:

#1 - great.
#2 - great.
#3 - not quite right. You need mouthpiece pressure to form a seal, and that pressure has to increase with higher range to maintain the seal.
#4 - Good. Some great high-range players I've talked to don't do this and some do to great effect. I suspect that he would find Sam Burtis' suggestion to use overtone-singing tongue positions very interesting.
#5 - not quite right. I think that his actual motion to play high isn't quite what he thinks it is. I see none of what he's talking about for point #5 when he plays up to high Bb around 11:20.
#6 - OK. In my experience, the corners work correctly naturally when you're doing other things correctly.
#7 - great.
#8 - Nope. Many people have great non-centered embouchures with not-perfectly-vertical occlusions.
#9 - Same as #5 - I don't think he's doing quite what he thinks he's doing.

[Savio]

I really think he tells a little bit to much about what works for him and forget we are all different. What he say about keeping the mouthpiece centred, is where I turned the video off. Centred is not for everyone.

Internet is a good thing but dont trust everything. Better take a face to face lesson with a good teacher. Or use internet to take a skype lesson with some really good teachers like Doug Elliott if we are in a lonesome place. Anyway it must be a teacher that understand we all need different advices to achieve same result.

Leif

[Jnoxon]

There are a lot of High "Range Experts" out there. Gimmicks rarely if ever work. It just a matter of getting something like Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach To Daily Practice, Louis Maggio's Method and put in the time practicing to develop a good High and Low range. One helps the other! Too many forget the low range and it has a bearing on the high range. So get the right books/methods and put in the practice time to develop it correctly.

[harrisonreed]

I agree. #9 is bo-oo-gus.

Some of the other stuff is a little dicey.

But there is no magic dust that wil make you have a range like Tommy Dorsey. It takes hard work and is gained a note at a time.

it's also lost many notes at a time.

[imsevimse]

I think he is forgetting something that is very important and that is the importance of a good SOUND. The sound is a very good guide to if something is right or not. Since he has not solved THAT puzzle himself It is hard to take anything he says seriously.

What he says and what he does could be different things since the result is not convincing, instead the result only reveals serious problems with his playing.

To repeat to every student what others have said or what have read can be very dangerous for the students, and this is what I believe he is doing. It could be right or it could be wrong. It depends on the student.

To listen to this teacher reveals he has poor tone and poor control. The sound is pinched and not centered. I wonder why?

At one point he does show how to make an even more pinched and narrow sound, and right after he shows how to open up to produce a little more open sound. I think the message there is right but he himself is not even half way to an open sound. I wonder what causes this? Could it be a very arched tounge or a pinched lip or a closed throat, or all three of them?

First I thought he might be a trumpet player because trumpet players often sound like him when they pick up a trombone, but when he picked up the trumpet it was even worse. Any words from someone who says they have a receipt on playing high notes and claims to have THE solution - especially if they can't bring all together and sound good themselves - must be taken with a big grain of salt. Even world class players who can prove they got the puzzle solved must be taken with a grain of salt. What they teach one student might not be what they teach another student. To just pass the information between students might not help. It fits some but not all.

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

[timothy42b]

This guy is actually more dangerous because unlike the first post, he can play the high register with good sound.



His motion is opposite mine, and if I had just seen this video I would probably try to do it his way and mess it up. But he does explain his approach clearly and the video quality is good.

[Redthunder]

Waiting for someone to chime in with a video of everyone's favorite high note wizard, the TRUMPETSIZZLE extraordinaire, KT.

[hyperbolica]

The pivot depends on if you have an over or underbite. Underbite will angle horn up as your teeth come together. Overbite will have the opposite effect for the same action.

You can't learn from thinking about things so consciously. You have to do it for yourself, remember what it feels like, and reproduce as you play until you figure out what physical position correlates to a good sound. And you have to figure that out for different ranges, volumes, articulations, etc.

People who can teach this stuff can also diagnose individuals. You can't do that for a general audience.

I learned to play high from a bass trombonist. I did it by making sure that my mid range was solid, and I knew how to make a good sound in general. I never thought about playing high. I never even knew there were notes above F above the staff until late into high school. But when I ran into music that introduced me to that range, my chops were solid, and ready for it. Like almost everything else, its about rock solid fundamentals.

===============


@Redthunder,
On a different note, do you remember the Tastee Bros from the 1990s? Really the fathers of all crass trumpet players. Not sure if this was parody or just early web blatant obnoxiousness. In the 90s they had a whole site with travel logs and recordings. This Christmas offering was just one of them. Earplugs and an air sickness bag please.

http://www.gibble.org/high.htm

[baileyman]

It's funny how some guys are revered and others panned when often they say basically the same thing. The tromboner up top is not significantly different in what he says than numerous revered pros.

However, the trumpet guy above, he's tuning his mouth to the pitch, what I call the resonance approach. Just great. Not so sure about moving the jaw, but just great. Thanks for finding that harrisonreed.

[timothy42b]

It's funny how some guys are revered and others panned when often they say basically the same thing. The tromboner up top is not significantly different in what he says than numerous revered pros.

I would agree with that. They're wrong too. They can play really well, but they don't necessarily know what they really do.

[JohnL]

Not sure if this was parody or just early web blatant obnoxiousness.

More satire than parody, methinks. The guys behind it (Scott Englebright and Donny Dyess) were both top-notch players who apparently decided to have a little fun at the expense of "that guy". You know who "that guy" is, right? We've all played in groups with him.

Here's an artifact from the Tastee Bros. website...
http://www.gibble.org/high.htm

[imsevimse]

This guy is actually more dangerous because unlike the first post, he can play the high register with good sound.

Yes he knows his bussiness. I think he is making much more sense, and he is not just talk. I don't know who he is, but somebody should. That guy sure can play.
/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

He sounds good and plays well but I wouldn't go so far as to say he knows his business. What he does and talks about is correct for some players, but far from correct for others.

A lot of my teaching time involves getting players to unlearn wrong stuff they've learned from good players like that.

[imsevimse]

He sounds good and plays well but I wouldn't go so far as to say he knows his business. What he does and talks about is correct for some players, but far from correct for others.

A lot of my teaching time involves getting players to unlearn wrong stuff they've learned from good players like that.

You are right I should have put it different. To me his approach makes sense, because I found it less scientific. The guy blows and says it is a combination of all things. He is not that specific. When he plays you see the pivot happening and you hear the air running freely, he shows his position of lips and tongue when he makes those high squeaks. His sound is great and he has control. Of course he shows what works FOR HIM. What I meant was I do think he has a good understanding of what he is doing. That was what I meant by "knowing his business".

/Tom

[timothy42b]

I had a conversation recently with a local tuba player. He's one of the more accomplished players around here, studied with some names you would recognize. He had a solid high range naturally. Anyway, one of his students asked him how to play high. He said he didn't know, but he would know by the next lesson. So he paid very careful attention to what he himself did to play high over the next week. I'm fuzzy on the details but I think it had to do with a very low mouthpiece placement and downward motion. Then he used his experience to help the student play high, and it worked.

I think that's another example of a very good player not really knowing details of why something worked for him.

[Pre59]

I'm fuzzy on the details but I think it had to do with a very low mouthpiece placement and downward motion.

+1

When I'm about to play higher I make sure that I've got good contact with the upper inside of the rim, and aim the air lower, but there's an aperture element as well. It's a conscious action that I practice using arp's, flex's and trills.

I had a high range from the off, and could play all of the notes of IGSOY and Bolero before I was 16. To be clear, I mean the notes, not the music..

[PaulT]

I know nothing about the high register, but I do know that this guy [the jaw guy in the Hawaiian shirt] is funnier than hell. What a great video and what a wonderfully entertaining presentation. Thanks for posting it.

[quiethorn]

Saw this on YouTube, and thought I'd post it here for discussion.........

Forget the range stuff...

...I'm mostly bothered that he plays high G, A, and B natural all in the same 2nd position

...and seeing him play his Bb scale with D in 1st instead of 4th (keep the slide going in one direction as long as reasonably possible; it's even in Arban's).

[quiethorn]

The most sensible high range advice I heard (and read in "Trombonisms") is from Alan Raph, even if I never really applied it to my own playing much.



However, something I've also done with my students is to print out scales that cover the full range of the horn for the range they're working with at that time. So for instance, I have student who got a trigger horn and whose high range was getting solid up to about high G or A, so I printed out all the major scales around trigger D and ending around high G. So essentially, the Bb major scale would be a D phrygian, a C major would be D dorian, A major would be D lydian, Ab major would be an Eb Mixolydian, and so on. As her high and low range extend, I'll just add a few more notes on each end of the scales. This way, when the student practices her scales, each scale is also a workout of her full range.

[timothy42b]

The Ralph video divides notes into 3 categories and gives advice on how much to play each.

It sounds logical but without more guidance, are you going to play any of those ranges correctly? I've never found an exercise I can't do wrong.

[Pre59]

We'll be getting all of our power from Fusion, and living on distant planets long before arriving at a consensus on this issue.

[Redthunder]

We'll be getting all of our power from Fusion, and living on distant planets long before arriving at a consensus on this issue.

Consensus isn't required, as long as it's understood that different players require different ways of thinking about things depending on how they play. The problems arise when people assume that the way *they* think about these topics MUST be the right way, because it works (for them)!

The specific advice I've gotten about range that's been most helpful has all come from Doug and Dave Wilken, but it's advice that applies to me specifically and won't really be helpful for most other trombone players, so I would never impose that on my students unless I could tell they have a similar embouchure type to me.

And vice versa, I've pretty much stopped getting any instruction from other trombone players because many of them assume that I'm doing something wrong when they see me play, and give me advice that's completely contrary to what I now know to work for my face and chops.

[imsevimse]

I don't think it is possible to just follow a good player and do the same. We can't copy what works and just apply it on our selves.

The reason is we are physically different. Just have a look at everything on the outside and it is obvious we are not created the same. The same differences are within our bodies. To find our solutions - if we do - depends on how willing we are to seek, and how we explore.

We need to learn how to best use others as inspiration. We need to learn how to be a good student. How to best use a teacher.

What goes around us might help us, but we must add our selves and therefore we have to adopt and pick the best advice, but at the same time do it our way. Another thing of great importance is belief. A good teacher can have us try things, but we our selves must decide if we want to believe. If we don't belive we will not succeed.

The range I've got is the result of many, many small steps. First a fundamental emboshure change in my teens that I owe to Sven Larsson (at this forum) He did not force it on me, he was just the source who inspired me to do it and afterwords guide me through it. That change made me nail the high c, a fourth higher than I ever had played. I lost allmost all other notes, but fortunately that was repairable. After this it was a lot of hard work to fill in the blanks. I increased my registrer in half steps - up and down - when I least expected it to happen.

My belief to succeed in the high (and low) register is we need to go beyond our borders, and do it repeatedly. Again, again and again and experiment. Do small changes. A little change in angle, a little change in pressure (often less pressure), a little change in lips, air or tongue. All that will eventually help to solve the puzzle. As the condition to make anything work we need air. We need a steady flow in the first place to have something to work with.

It can happen we hit the wall. If that happens we might need to start all over again. If we had a good start it is less likely to happen. If you come to the conclusion you need to do a drastic change then remember everything is possible as long as you believe.

I know this because I managed to twist my strange emboshure, that was all wrong, to something that now feels great. Today I don't think anyone could beleve the disaster I once was. At the time when my friends played advanced concertos I was struggeling to just get a sound. Most of my friends played circles around me in my teens. I had a smile emboshure with air pockets and puffy cheeks. I used a lot of pressure on my lips just to be able to play anything.

I often had sore lips and could not understand how a high Bb could ever be possible. I had to use so much force just to play the f above the staff and assumed others also did the same. I just belived they were stronger than me.

I was also taught to play with a "hard" stomach. My teacher put his fist in my stomach to make me get the right feeling and he also had taught me to grab the slide with the full hand. Add to this I had not heard a trombone for the first four years of my studies because my teacher could not play any brass instrument. I was probably the worst nightmare you could have if YOU were to be my next teacher

I have never had an eureka moment as important as the one I had in my teens until I discovered the imporance of soft playing as a method to fine tune a better air support and also as a method to help control tongue articulation and legato playing better. It pushed me over the next threshold. It also led to an improvement of my register. It is more secure. It lead to I'm a better player today than I was one year ago in most areas, and I'm sure the difference is obvious to my friends too. Thanks tromboneforum and all my horns, for inspiration

/Tom

[Pre59]

My experience is not dissimilar to the 2 posts directly above ^^, so I don't treat the topic lightly. I wasted a good many years trying to play on the kind of embouchure that I never saw any decent players use, and I sorted it out myself in a series of small steps after a painfully large one.

In my case, having a natural high range was a smokescreen hiding a lot of serious issues going on below..

[ssking2b]

High range is breath support with the proper setting for your individual chops to make efficient use of the air. Everybody is different in their personal physiology, but the principle s are the same. Breath support first and chops second.

[torobone]

I have tried to stop posting to topics like these because most advice seems to be shots in the dark. I have studied with 3 teachers over the years, and had lessons with 10+ other people, and only one (1) teacher had a clear concept of where their sound came from and how to correctly communicate that to me. That was Al Kay.

Some of the best things I learned from Al were very quick things that allow for accurate self-assessment. I stumbled across the following clinic sheet in 2007 after playing for 40 years. It finally (!) provided a basis to actually start to build embouchure strength.

http://alkay.ca/documents/clinic_sheets ... loud_e.pdf

If you follow the written instructions and play the first 3 note exercise, you will find things out that work for you. I asked Al for lessons, and I would learn enough in one lesson to keep me working for 3+ months.

My journey continues; I have come a long way since 2007. To get back to the topic, I consider my high register to be solid for the written page; the highest note I've had to play is top space treble clef Eb. I'm making slow progress playing above the treble clef, but it is a result of figuring things out for me.

One of my favorite questions from Al is: "If you are using your tongue for range, what are articulating with?" Also, listen to Milt Bernhardt's solo in Sinatra's IGYUMS, and while he is double tonguing the F#, do you think he is also arching his tongue?

[Redthunder]

High range is breath support with the proper setting for your individual chops to make efficient use of the air. Everybody is different in their personal physiology, but the principle s are the same. Breath support first and chops second.

Except for many players, all of the good breath support in the world doesn't do anything if their chops are in bad shape.

[Leisesturm]

This guy is actually more dangerous because unlike the first post, he can play the high register with good sound.

His motion is opposite mine, and if I had just seen this video I would probably try to do it his way and mess it up. But he does explain his approach clearly and the video quality is good.

Interesting POV. You characterize the presenter as 'dangerous' because the mechanics of his (in your own words) success is opposite yours. Hmmm. I don't know ... the takeaway from several posts in this thread is in essence: there is no value to instruction. Do your own thing. We are all different and we have to find our own way. I can actually accept that and its more or less what I do. But I think there is value in making the attempt to copy (obvious) success. Especially if that success is superior to your own. Yah, it's WORK to completely relearn a new embouchure, but players have done it. Because their way worked, but didn't work well enough. I didn't watch any of the videos, but there seems a clear consensus that the original presenter doesn't know what he is talking about.

When I play high I crowd the top of the mouthpiece. Be it a Horn, a Trumpet, or a Trombone (or Tuba) as I go higher in the range I am also going higher in the mouthpiece. The objective (and it was completely instinctive, no one told me to do it this way) is to narrow the aperture through which the air flows. Of course, air support needs to go up because of this. Again, this was instinctive and it must be correct because I play right to the top of what is accepted as the upper limit for all the brass instruments I have tried. Muscle tension must also increase, again I think this must be instinctive. At the end of the day the way notes are played in the highest octave is just a more intense version of the way the same notes an octave lower are played. Practice up there. Sustained practice up there WILL bring about the ability to do what the guys in the video (the successes) do. Too many of us run up to a high note and then immediately run back down. Instead, play an entire etude an octave higher than written! No, you won't be able to do it the first time you try (or maybe you will!) but keep doing it and eventually YouToo will be able to post your own YouTube videos of your high note success. Good luck.

[Leisesturm]

Not sure if this was parody or just early web blatant obnoxiousness.

OMG, parody, I am (almost) certain ...

[Redthunder]

Interesting POV. You characterize the presenter as 'dangerous' because the mechanics of his (in your own words) success is opposite yours.

No - it's "dangerous", because if someone presents incomplete or incorrect information it could do more harm than good, and in this video, there is plenty. He uses familiar terms to describe what he does (pivot system for example) , but does not clarify that his "pivot" works for him only because he has the anatomy that makes it so. If he tried to pivot the opposite way because someone else happened to play that way, it would not work, and vice versa. This matters because if he teaches every student he sees the same way without taking into account differences in anatomy that create major differences in how individuals play brass instruments, the students who have similar embouchures to him will succeed and the ones who have different embouchures will not.

Hmmm. I don't know ... the takeaway from several posts in this thread is in essence: there is no value to instruction. Do your own thing.

When did anybody say that there was no value in instruction? That's definitely untrue. I think the larger point is that BECAUSE everyone is different, instruction needs to be tailored to match the needs of individuals rather than a one-size-fits-all-do-what-I-do-because-it-works approach.

We are all different and we have to find our own way. I can actually accept that and its more or less what I do. But I think there is value in making the attempt to copy (obvious) success. Especially if that success is superior to your own.

Copying a successful performer's embouchure won't work just because it worked for them. Again, your optimal embouchure is informed by physiology, not imitation or what has worked for others. If I tried to copy the embouchures and mechanics of players like Doug Elliott, Joe Alessi, or Bill Watrous just because they are highly successful I'd be in a world of hurt.

Yah, it's WORK to completely relearn a new embouchure, but players have done it. Because their way worked, but didn't work well enough.

Changing your embouchure without proper guidance, or a strong understanding of embouchure mechanics is almost guaranteed to fail unless you know exactly what doesn't work and why it doesn't work.

[Pre59]

One of my favorite questions from Al is: "If you are using your tongue for range, what are articulating with?" Also, listen to Milt Bernhardt's solo in Sinatra's IGYUMS, and while he is double tonguing the F#, do you think he is also arching his tongue?

I totally agree. If I have to tongue any note to play it, high or low, I don't really own it.

[baileyman]

Next time you guys are playing 12th partial F, stop in the middle and don't move anything, then withdraw the mouthpiece and blow a whoosh through whatever your setup is for the F.

What pitch is the whoosh?