TromboneChat

I'm an old trombone player, but kind of new to tuba and valves. If I don't play my tuba for a week, one or more of the valves (pistons) will stick. This is a newish Wessex. I've washed it out (which I understand most tubists don't do) and oil the valves when I play it.

Is there something I can do short of playing more often that will make the valves less fussy, or is this the nature of the beast with pistons? Are the valves possibly not broken in, or is this just a thing with Wessex valves? Am I better off trading it in on a 30 year old Mirafone 186?

Pistons can sometimes be picky about the oil that works best, just like a trombone’s rotor. Which oils have you tried? I’ve found that my euph works best with regular old Al Cass.

Piston needs more frequent oiling than rotor. Normally I see trumpet players oil theirs at least once every two or three days. Rotor can be left unoiled for weeks or even a month and it would still move, although doing that is good or not is another question.

The school band I am helping has valve oil in a 1-litre bottle, and even that, still frequently has to be top up, while rotor oil is in its original 200ml bottle, and the bottle would last for months.

I use regular Al Cass too. Is there special cleaning that you need to do with valves, especially new ones?

As you can see from my signature, I have a Wessex compensating Eb tuba. The pistons on these horns are VERY tight in the cylinders. And uh, I hope that most tubists DO wash out their horns. I do on at least a 6-month basis, and it's quite a ritual. But that aside, ...

I think it's likely that (a) your pistons aren't quite worn in yet, and (b) you are most likely using oil that is simply too thick. I use Yamaha LIGHT Synthetic valve oil on both my Wessex and my Max Brass horns. Anything else and the valves are at best sluggish. With the Yamaha light oil, I don't need to oil it more than once every couple of weeks, or sometimes more. If you're pouring heavy oil into it on a regular basis, then the valves are going to act pretty dismally. LIke trying to run you racing engine with STP in place of oil.

Also, what are you doing with the horn between practices? Are you perhaps standing it on its bell? If so, you need to stop doing that.

My Wessex Champion Eb is wonderful in terms of pitch and intonation and playability. You should have a good time if your Wessex is a similar instrument.

When you clean off your valves, is there a lot of gunk coming off of it? Ie. Lots of black. If it is a newer horn, some oils and grit may be travelling there from other parts of the horn. It may be worth getting a deep clean to get all of the factory oils out. Another thing to do would be to bring it to your tech to have them lightly lapped. This is quite common to do for newer valves.

It's a Weesex Bombino, small Eb. Nice instrument, good tone fun to play. I've had it less than a year, and it gets played usually less than an hour a week. The valves totally sieze after about a week. I have a corner where I store it upright. It's not very stable on its bell. Is there some problem other than stability with storing it on the bell?

May get the lapping done., but will start with some valve brushes and another bath.

I STRONGLY recommend you contact Jonathan about this before you lap the valves. If this is a progressive problem -- i.e., it plays fine and just seems to get tight after a week -- that doesn't immediately suggest a problem that would require lapping. It is not common, to my knowledge and in my experience to have valves lapped on a new instrument. Either contact Jonathan (why not?), or post to Tubenet and see what they say. It's POSSIBLE that there's something not quite right about this instrument, but I doubt it.

Storing on the bell is not good for two reasons. First, this will attract woodwind and high brass players to the area, and they will then step on the bell. This may happen even if the horn is in your own home. The attraction of tuba bells to the feet of these players is strong. Second, if you put it on the bell, since it has (3) upright valves, all the valve oil will then migrate downwards to the valve caps and felts. You'll get the same migration in the opposite direction (towards the bottom caps) if you leave it upright or in a stand (which is what I do), but it won't be getting into the felts.

You don't say what oil you're using or how frequently you're using it, or how much you're using, or exactly how you apply the oil. If I don't play my Wessex Eb for a while (like a week), then one or more of the valves is a bit stiff for a moment. If I let it set, this condition is more pronounced. This is not true on my 92 year old Buecher Eb tuba -- on which I use the thicker Yamaha "standard" or the "vintage" synthetic oil. Yes the valves on these Wessex horns are tight. But that's great. Beware of taking a dramatic step to fix a problem that doesn't require it, and degrading your instrument in the process.

As for trading it in on an old Miraphone 186, that's a bit like asking if I should trade in a King 3B on a Bach 50B2. But it would have one advantage for you: If you ever have ROTARY valves stick, then you'll KNOW there's something wrong with them. They're a lot easier to maintain. I played a Cerveny 781 BBb for about 20 years (virtually a twin of the 186), and it was a great horn. But I prefer the feel of piston valves, and prefer an Eb tuba.

Hey Matt, find some of the brown paper towels used to dry hands and aggressively burnish your valves in a linear motion, then swab out the casings with muslin or cheesecloth. Then oil your valves well.
Might polish the valves just enough to get the new "glaze", for lack of a better word, off the valves & let them move correctly.
Keep the valves well oiled for a couple of days, like 4-5 drops minimum, and then a couple of drops daily.

If this doesn't help, then yes, a light lapping might be in order.
Also check your guides.

Eric

@ghmerrill,
I'm using Al Cass. I've never really played piston valves before, so I just oil them every time I play. Sometimes I play a couple times a week, and sometimes I don't play for a couple of weeks. The valves don't slow down or gum up, they actually sieze. To release them involves pressing hard or unscrewing a valve cap to get some oil in, or getting oil in through the bottom vent or through a tuning slide.

Thanks all for the suggestions.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:16 am ...and sometimes I don't play for a couple of weeks. The valves don't slow down or gum up, they actually sieze. To release them involves pressing hard or unscrewing a valve cap to get some oil in, or getting oil in through the bottom vent or through a tuning slide...

It sounds like what might be happening, is that the valves are drying out after a period of time and are sticking (seizing). That has happened on every piston low brass instrument I've played if it's not used or oiled in a while. I don't think that, necessarily, indicates a problem with the instrument, especially if the valves aren't looking dirty or wearing strangely, but that experimentation with other oils may help fix the issue.

pompatus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:46 am It sounds like what might be happening, is that the valves are drying out after a period of time and are sticking (seizing). That has happened on every piston low brass instrument I've played if it's not used or oiled in a while. I don't think that, necessarily, indicates a problem with the instrument, especially if the valves aren't looking dirty or wearing strangely, but that experimentation with other oils may help fix the issue.

That's more along the line of what I was thinking. But it also seems to be the case that older horns are less susceptible to this sort of thing. I'm going to give the thinner Yamaha oil mentioned earlier a chance. Thanks for the answer.

You might take a look at Tromba T-2 valve oil. It is silicone type of oil and it seems to work well on tight tolerance valves.

I've gotten into the habit when putting away my horns after playing of taking my pistons out and shaking / wiping the excess moisture off them. Then I put them back in with a fresh coat of oil and work them a few times. I figure sitting with saliva on them and any wayward particles is what causes them to freeze when they dry out. I now find my pistons are free even after sitting for months--too many horns to play all the time when I'd rather play my trombones. My poor flugelhorn has to sit the longest without any play. Maybe I should call it my Christmas horn?

There is a guy on tubenet who has drilled oil holes in his top caps. He uses a needle oiler every time he plays. Check out the recent thread.

I use lamp oil from Walmart on my tuba. Cheap enough to use plenty. There are folks on YouTube who say you only need a drop or two of oil - I use a lot.

I've found there is no "one" oil for all my instruments. I used Space Filler Ultimate II for tight valves on most of my trumpets, my cornet does just fine with Al Cass, and my euphonium prefers Hetman's #3. I do believe the synthetics do a better job as they sure do make your fingers slippery if you get some on them. I replaced the original fluid in my Mustang's standard transmission with synthetic oil and it make a noticeable difference in easing shifting, especially when cold.

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Schlitz wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:08 pm There’s a school string teacher, viola, 5 doors down. They’re on their 3rd garage door in 7 years.

This appears to be a viola joke I haven't seen previously.

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Well, I could understand if there were, say, a tuba being stored in the garage.

I almost NEVER put any of my instruments on their bells. For the tubas I have a (Jupiter -- no longer available, I think) adjustable stand that will hold anything (upright) from a very large tuba to a euphonium. I never leave my instrument (trombone, baritone, or tuba) unattended for more than a couple of seconds. Even so, a couple of years ago a clarinet player almost got my bass trombone (sitting beside me on its stand) by knocking a music stand towards it as she plowed her way through the trumpet section and completely across and down the stage to the opposite corner. Never occurred to her to walk around the band and then enter through the front into the second row.

I once had a new Besson euph, and I was having issues right out of the box (with Al Cass valve oil). Switched to another oil and never had a problem again. I'd experiment with oils - though clean out first.

I let a local repair guy work on my Martin euph. He repaired a leaking leadpipe, but took it upon himself to lap the pistons too. The result is leaky valves with squirrelly partials - it is now very difficult to center a note or play anywhere near in tune. I would be cautious lapping except as a last result and with someone known to be good at it. Definitely not DIY.

You can wipe the listings clean when you put it away. Also store it with the valves not fully seated if it will be more than a few days before you play it again.

You can get some excellent valve cleaner/oil from Warburton called VALVE WASH. Play the horn for a couple hours with that in the valves, then wipe them off and use your regular oil. It really cleans up valves!

I used to use Al Cass on valves and rotors, but have changed to Denis Wick valve oil. It is, with out a doubt, the longest lasting most slick oil I have ever used. Recommended to be by a Trumpet player who is beyond picky about valve action. He was right! He also introduced me to the Warburton stuff.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:04 am
I used to use Al Cass on valves and rotors, but have changed to Denis Wick valve oil. It is, with out a doubt, the longest lasting most slick oil I have ever used.

It came with my Wessex Champion tuba when I got it. Your description of it in terms of "longest lasting" may be correct. The problem was that -- particularly on the Wessex instrument, which had very closely honed valves -- it was WAY too heavy and the valves were sluggish. In fact, I didn't have an instrument at the time on which it would work well (maybe my 1924 Buescher is one). I also found the bottle it came in to be a real pain to use in applying it, but perhaps that's changed. At least that was my experience when I got that Wessex horn of mine. I continue to use Yamaha Light Synthetic Valve Oil on it.

I relegated the Wick oil to use on various tools -- where it was wonderful. But I'm sure on a variety of instruments it would be great.

The oil that will work best for you, on a particular instrument, depends very much on physical characteristics of that instrument.

I totally agree with you. The Wick oil works very well for me, in my horns. I have found also that different slide lubes work better on some trombones and for some people. For example, when slide-o-mix came out, it wouldn't work on any horn I played. Many friends used it with great results. Then the Yamaha stuff came out, and it works great for me. I'm not sure, but I suspect many of these synthetic lubes react to people's individual chemistry differently. In the end, we all take suggestions, and use stuff that works best for us!

I have some experience with working on Chinese made instruments. Wessex, John Packer, etc. They don't seem to finish valves very well in their factories. My theory is that they don't finish with a fine enough lapping paste. Whilst being nice and tightly fitting, the pistons and casings end up with scratched surfaces (not really visible to the naked eye).

Anything that accumulates in these minute crevasses will contribute to this infuriating seizing when the oil dries up. Very light lapping with a very fine compound carried out by an expert technician should help. I have also had success using dry lubricants post lapping, degreasing and cleaning to reduce the friction further.

As others have said, it's definitely worth experimenting with different oils. I use Ultra Pure quite a lot and I find it to be very good indeed. I also mix oils regularly

Hope this helps!

Andy

If you are needing a very thin oil for something very finicky, "Five Star" worked for me when I needed something like that. If you're having trouble with horns that you leave in the case for weeks or months and the valves freeze up I would recommend the original Space Filler oll. It keeps them from getting stuck for months on my 1973 Besson euphonium . Better than anything I've ever tried for that.

This thread was started almost 3 years ago, so... maybe it is time for hyperbolica to give us an update on his tuba...

SimmonsTrombone wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:47 am I use lamp oil from Walmart on my tuba. Cheap enough to use plenty. There are folks on YouTube who say you only need a drop or two of oil - I use a lot.

Ask those same folks if they just use a drop or 2 of oil in their car. People who claim 1 or 2 drops to be enough are wrong, for many reasons.

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:37 am This thread was started almost 3 years ago, so... maybe it is time for hyperbolica to give us an update on his tuba...

Oh, ok. Didn't expect to be asked about this, but ok. I have different instruments from what I had back then, different Mack 422 tuba, different Wessex Festivo (used to have Dolce), plus a new-to-me 2280 and a 24i. Valves still pretty much the same - seize up after a week of sitting there. I wash my valved instruments more often than I wash my slide instruments mainly because I'm more paranoid about the valves. I still don't play the tuba every week, and now I have 3 euphs instead of 1, so not every instrument gets played every week. Some of the "new to me" instruments are probably 50 years old, and they still do this. Using Al Cass on the valves fairly rarely, but when I put it on, I give a couple solid squirts to make sure all the mating metal surfaces are coated. Sometimes I squirt valve oil in the bottoms of the valves, sometimes in a valve slide, and sometimes I break down and take the valves out and wipe them down, swab out the casing, and reoil. And of course now and then we all get in the shower together. That's a party. My wife makes fun of me showering with my instruments.

I haven't experimented with different oils. I haven't had the need to buy more. That is on the list of things to do, even after 3 years...

I think your one statement..... "Valves still pretty much the same - seize up after a week of sitting there" sums up everything. If you are not using a piston instrument for a week or more, you should store it with completely dry valves. If you oil the pistons, keep them moving! Even if all you do is pick up the horn and move the valves for 15 seconds each day, it should make a big difference.

As an analogy..... I try to take good care of my cars, including regular oil changes and all the regular, expensive maintenance. In 2002, I bought a new Nissan Maxima.....it was my mid-life crisis vehicle, but that's a different story. I thought I was doing the right thing by only taking it out on the road once every 7-10 days in the first 7 years that I owned it......wrong! The parts of an engine need to move in order to work properly. That particular Maxima had multiple engine issues and only lasted 12 years. It is a car that should have lasted much longer....I still see MANY of the same year and model on the roads today. On the other hand, the 1990 Mazda 3 (Protege') that I drove every day, lasted 23 years and was still working quite well when I sold it.

If you want brass instrument pistons to work, you need to keep them moving when they are oiled. On most of my valved instruments, I only need to oil them once every 2 or 3 weeks IF I KEEP THE VALVES MOVING every day. Pistons need to move to keep lubricated. Pistons need to move to prevent metal oxidation. Pistons need to move so that the oil doesn't partially evaporate and become more viscous.

Jnoxon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:22 pm You might take a look at Tromba T-2 valve oil. It is silicone type of oil and it seems to work well on tight tolerance valves.

I've used Al Cass for year, and it is a fine valve oil. But for some reason it tends to occasionally slow up my Euphonium valves. I recently tried T2 and have had good results to this point.

If you play trombone most days, your euphonium is going sit up for weeks or months at a time. Especially if you have more than one. It took me decades of breaking my valves free several times a year before I found the original, blue bottle, SPACE FILLER valve oil. Valves that would have frozen up in about 2 weeks go 3 months without freezing up. Just thin the oil out with a thinner synthetic when you get it out, if you feel the need to. I could have spared my valves a lot of wear and tear. And if I had known in my teens and twenties what I know now, i would have oiled my euphonium valves every day or two, to lessen long term wear. The Besson I bought in 1973 still plays great, but I regret the first and second valve plating wear.

walldaja wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:09 pm I've gotten into the habit when putting away my horns after playing of taking my pistons out and shaking / wiping the excess moisture off them. Then I put them back in with a fresh coat of oil and work them a few times. I figure sitting with saliva on them and any wayward particles is what causes them to freeze when they dry out. I now find my pistons are free even after sitting for months--too many horns to play all the time when I'd rather play my trombones.

I find myself in this exact position. I also wipe down and re-oil my piston valves when I put them away. I use a lighter oil (Monster Oil Faster) on my new tuba, Hetman #3 on my old tuba (60-70 years old), and a regular oil, Ultrapure, on my euphonium. I had similar problems that you have until I started to follow this regime.

This is an old thread, but I have had a recent experience with my doubling JP274 compensating euphonium that might be instructive. The valves on this horn began sticking earlier this year, with generally a generally gummy action, despite my efforts to keep them clean after every practice session/performance and using a good T2 synthetic oil.

I finally threw up my hands and took the horn to Matt Varney at Instrumental Music Center in Tucson. Matt explained that these intermediate priced euphoniums (the JP was about $2700 new) tend to use a softer metal on the valves, which will pit, causing a build up of oil and mineral deposits. He uses a mild acid wash treatment on the valves, which dissolves this build up. He charged me $90 for this service and an ultrasound treatment for the rest of the horn. The valves are now slick and and working great.

I recently upgraded to RESILIANCE oil light. Zero problems!!

I think there's more to this story. I bought a new Kanstul 1662i probably 6-8 years ago. Almost immediately one valve seized. It has been worked on a couple of times, and eventually lapped. After lapping, the valves now only get sluggish AFTER THEY ARE OILED. eventually they stop sticking. So I run them dry and there's no problem. Makes no sense.

Based on other results I've had with my mouthpiece and in such fields as dentistry and urology, Dr. Matt (that's me) has decided the problem is my saliva is too - - something. Alkaline or acid, dunno. When the saliva dries it makes this chalky crust. Also leaves crusty crap on my mouthpiece. Kidney stones. No cavities, but lots of calculus... Should have been a percussion player.

I tried blue juice, and it was worse if anything plus it stAAAnks as the say over yonder in the holler. I'll try some of the thinner stuff, but it takes months to go through a small bottle. I've taken to squirting oil down the leadpipe after playing. That helps a little. Maybe eating Lemons or whatever the opposite of lemons is.

Anyway the common factor in all my problems is me. Not sure what can be done about saliva that's too - - anything. I'll try to buy old horns with worn valves. I just don't want to bend the valve stems unseizing them.

Have you ever picked up an electric bass? A LOT of fun and you don’t have to put your mouth on it!!

Anyway, sorry to hear about these troubles.

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:26 pm Have you ever picked up an electric bass? A LOT of fun and you don’t have to put your mouth on it!!

Anyway, sorry to hear about these troubles.

Yeah, actually I have played ebass. And I have a banjo. But that is a different story.

My tuba buddy told me he found it was his hard water making the valves stick on his tuba. After a cleaning the tuba, the valves and tuning slides would frequently stick due to the mineral deposits. Now he leaves it open to make sure it’s completely dry before assembling, after generously lubing everything. My euphonium valves will stick after a month of non-use, but a light tap frees them and fresh oil keeps them free for several weeks. Usually only one or two of the valves will stick out of the 4, and it’s not always the same one(s). No trouble with trumpet valves or French horn rotors sticking, but my trumpet never sits very long.

My 1930s Conn tuba sat in the previous owners basement for years untouched…to my surprise all valves and tuning slides were all free when I got it! As a precaution, since it’s typically a Christmas time only horn, I pull all the tuning slides and valve pistons out and store them separately.