Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing?

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:03 pm

why has it become so normal and basically standard for players on the collegiate and (for the most part) professional level to use a small bore for jazz and a large for legit? Shouldn't we encouraging players to seek a horn that fits their own unique vocal style and go from there? As a result you'd have to teach them also to learn how to create the characteristic sound for whatever they might be playing with whatever equipment suits them best and is most comfortable? I know this is common talk here on this forum but lately I've been contemplating the idea what it means to be a diverse and artistic trombonist. Also as to what type of precautions and choices should be made when seeking to elevate the craft to the highest level.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:25 pm

Actually, there are a lot of times where a small bore horn works in Classical. Most music written up to 1950 was written for small bore trombones or valve trombones. I find when I'm playing in a smaller ensemble a small bore trombone works better. For example, in "L'Histoire du Soldat" a small bore with F fits in the ensemble better (you need the F for a couple of notes). And single trombone pieces like Debussy "Afternoon of a Faun" work much better on small bore. We were doing the Sibelius 2nd Symphony and I brought my small bore (1925 Olds) to a rehearsal and found the blend when we had a chorale with the horns was very good. The trend for symphonies, though, is to use a large bore instrument for everything. You won't make a "proper" sound on a smaller one. You certainly won't win an audition on a small bore.

In jazz, playing a lot of high music on a large bore can be VERY tiring. Even worse if you try to use a bass trombone. But there are many advocates of large bore instruments in jazz and they do a very creditable job.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:28 pm

With the orchestra I conduct, we are at present working on the last 2 movements of Berlioz's "Symphonie Fantastique" and Ravel's "Bolero". (Not for public performance-we can't play it well enough (yet) but just for our own enjoyment and experience)
Our normal "heavy brass" line up is usually 3 tenors (2x88H,1x682B), 1 bass (Reynolds Contempora double trigger) and 1 Besson New Standard EEb bass tuba (4 valve, compensated)
For this series I have suggested medium or medium-large tenors for trombones 1&2, large bore tenor for trombone 3, Tuba as normal and one of the trombone players doubles on euphonium so he is playing the 1st Ophicleide part. Seems to be working fine.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_eightyeightH · Post by **ttf_eightyeightH** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:39 pm

I wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments?

PS legit? Really? Would you tell Trombone Shorty (inter alia) he doesn't play legit music?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:42 pm

Quote from: eightyeightH on Feb 14, 2017, 03:39PMI wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments?

...

Some yes, some no. I have more respect for the ones who can. Mostly for their wanting a specific sound (which is their job, after all).

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:52 pm

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:53 pm

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 14, 2017, 03:03PMShouldn't we encouraging players to seek a horn that fits their own unique vocal style and go from there?
Vocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competative to win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 14, 2017, 03:03PMAs a result you'd have to teach them also to learn how to create the characteristic sound for whatever they might be playing with whatever equipment suits them best and is most comfortable?

Ayuh. Right gear for the job.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:30 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 14, 2017, 03:53PMVocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competative to win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.

Ayuh. Right gear for the job.
I guess what I'm asking here is why Large bore?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 14, 2017, 04:30PMI guess what I'm asking here is why Large bore?

If you want to win an orchestral audition nowadays you have to play a large bore.

It's certainly possible to use a smaller instrument at times, BUT:

1. Often the 1st and 2nd are a pair and should be on similar sized instruments.
2. The 3rd trombone needs to be a bridge between the trombones and a tuba (often a very large one) and a smallish bore horn won't bridge.
3. The fashion today is to use large bore trombones. Conductors are looking for that sound. And remember, if the guy waving the stick doesn't like your playing you need to find a different job.

If you listen to Ron Barron's "Le Trombone Francais" album you will hear him playing a Conn 88H and a Bach 36B. No reason why you couldn't use a smaller bore for solo.

Note that a medium or small bore with F is popular in pit orchestras for shows. You need to be able to cover the range of what used to be 3 different instruments and something like a King 3B-F lets you play high when you need to and to pop out a trigger note or three when that is called for.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:44 pm

Quote from: eightyeightH on Feb 14, 2017, 03:39PMI wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments?

PS legit? Really? Would you tell Trombone Shorty (inter alia) he doesn't play legit music?

You say it like I just made up the term up myself. Trust me, I'm not that cool...

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:49 pm

Is the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between

ttf_eightyeightH · Post by **ttf_eightyeightH** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:51 pm

Not questioning your coolness, but it's a bit perjorative, whoever said it.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:05 pm

I'm sure plenty of Baroque harpsichordist get complimented on their classical music without having an existential crisis....

Large-bore has been the American way for many decades now. In different places at different times, different sound concepts and instrument morphologies have prevailed. "small" and "large" are also of course relative terms - consider that the "small bore" tenor trombone of the American school with a 0.500" bore and 7" bell is a much heftier instrument in proportion than the small French instruments they succeeded at the turn of the 20th century.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:17 pm

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 14, 2017, 04:49PMIs the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between

When you become the conductor, you can choose what plays what.

Standard orchestral setups are two tenor trombones, a bass trombone, and a tuba. Richard Strauss used a Tenor Tuba (Euphonium) in his orchestra. Wagner introduced a contrabass trombone and large French Horn-like "Wagner Tuben". Before the tuba was invented, the orchestral brass bass was an Ophicleide. But you aren't going to get that Orchestral job auditioning on an ophicleide or a cimbasso when they are looking for a tuba player.

Why is it this way? It just is. Justified or not. Way of the world.

You may want to try to make your way in a non-conventional fashion like our friend who plays jazz on an alto trombone. But you are headed into rough territory that way. Contractors don't hire non-conformists.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:34 pm

I think Bruce hits the nail on the head when he says, "The fashion today is to use large bore trombones." Personally, I think it is a wrong fashion and does not do justice to either classical music, most of which was written for small bore; or for Big Bands and Jazz where it is completely the wrong sound to my ears. You also have to realise that most big band music for trombone is played in a much higher register than classical, concert and brass bands.

I remember in the mid 1950s when larger bore Bb/F trombones first started to appear in the UK. Most of the good jazz players gave them a try but their popularity soon waned. Like I say, it is completely the wrong sound. The trombone is not a bass instrument. It's a tenor instrument.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:53 pm

There are definitely a small handful of pro "legit" (whatever the term is, not important) trombone players who regularly play smallISH bore trombones in day to day orchestral playing. The one who impressed me the most was Harkan Bjorkman who when I met, could make a huge variety of sounds out of his yamaha which took a small shank mouthpiece at the time. Dont know if that is still what he is on.

I think one other reason that there are so few smaller bore trombonists in orchestra is probably the same reason we dont see a huge number of tenor players on a mouthpiece as big as what Alessi plays.... Alessi makes it work and sounds simply unbelievable, but that gear simply doesn't work for everyone.... I think playing a small bore for day to day orchestral playing would be hard work for most. I know it would for me.

Honestly I think its a bit of a non issue.... If you can make a sound that impresses an audition panel on a small bore instrument (which IS possible, just not by many players) then that is what you should play. I just think the number of players who could "weild and tame"

a small bore trombone in an modern orchestral setting are probably similar to the number of principle trombone players who can make a mouthpiece as big as Alessi's work. Possible, just not for all.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:10 pm

I'm pretty sure Hakan still plays his Yamaha Z for most of his work that I've seen in the past few years at least. A standard large bore just seems a little macho a seclusive when trying to match balance with the rest of the brass in an orchestra (horns and trumpets) and in terms of balance just makes more sense. This goes for the principal player at least, granted he or she is not playing Alto.

Hakan plays with the CEO and they play repertoire from vast amount of time periods. I'm pretty sure he changes horns around pretty frequently to fit the particular sound that was intended for that era. Oh yeah, when did large bore tenors become a thing?

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:19 pm

Someone will know exactly, but with my limited knowledge i think dennis wick had a lot to do with it, promoting the 88h a lot. I would hazard a guess also that Basses becoming more of a seperate instrument and getting bigger would have had something to do with it.

I dont think its macho at all.... plenty of people think it blends perfectly well with trumpets and horns. Look at any big name orchestra for proof. Plenty of people also find large bore instruments easier to play than small. No machoism there....

I agree with you though that trombone players probably could swap instruments a little more depending on rep like trumpet players. Especially bass trombones. I think regularly using 2 or 3 would be cool.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:21 pm

The transition appears to have been in the 1940s and 1950s. Blame Emory Remington and Lew Van Haney (among others) who seem to be the apostles of the Conn 88H (and Holton 68, later the 150). Denis Wick picked it up from the Americans.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Feb 14, 2017, 07:19PM...
I agree with you though that trombone players probably could swap instruments a little more depending on rep like trumpet players. Especially bass trombones. I think regularly using 2 or 3 would be cool.

Simultaneously?

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:26 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 14, 2017, 07:21PMThe transition appears to have been in the 1940s and 1950s. Blame Emory Remington and Lew Van Haney (among others) who seem to be the apostles of the Conn 88H (and Holton 68, later the 150). Denis Wick picked it up from the Americans.

Simultaneously?

Of course. How else could you interpret that?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Feb 14, 2017, 07:26PMOf course. How else could you interpret that?

As in one trombone on each lip

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:49 pm

Weren't the tenor trombones with F attachments during the romantic period relatively large bore?

In any case, it's not a macho thing. Some of it has to do with recordings getting louder and louder. Some of it has to do with how easy it is to sound great on a large bore.

Don't go making waves now hahaha

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:00 pm

Trombones with F-attachments during the Romantic Era were also fairly rare. In most cases they were used as bass trombones. The idea of everybody using an F-attachment instrument is relatively recent. When I was in High School most of us had straight tenors and only the 3rd trombones got the F-attachments.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:08 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 14, 2017, 03:52PMI've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.
In this context I'd think you'd be source enough Matt.

Prejudice in music is the same as prejudice anywhere, and judgement is in the eye, ear and mind of the beholder.

I agree with your assessment. And it leads to more than a little disappointment. I've always hoped to believe that musicians, as artists, have had wider scope of acceptance than is normal for the average of the general populace. Simply because of our appreciation of the art.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:14 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 14, 2017, 03:53PMVocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competativeto win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.
???

'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'.

Just sayin' Harrison...

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:17 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 14, 2017, 03:52PMI've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.

Never heard this used as a put down....Players of all colors will say "so and so is a great legit player" or "he plays very good legit as well as jazz." I don't believe it to be pejorative at all. Might have originated in a time when jazz was forbidden to be played/practiced at conservatories, but I have never heard this used as a put down. In what context have you heard this as an insult?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:24 pm

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 14, 2017, 04:49PMIs the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between

The Euphonium is usually a solo instrument where it is specifically scored. Bass/3rd trombone does actually seem to be a bridge between the trombones and the tubas. Not quite but frequently, when playing with a 'trombone bass/3rd' part I'm playing scores that in part double with the tubas. Sometimes I'm actually asked to play tuba parts!!!

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:39 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 14, 2017, 08:49PM... Some of it has to do with recordings getting louder and louder. Some of it has to do with how easy it is to sound great on a large bore.Is it that large bores are 'louder', or is it that they are 'fuller'. I'd be willing to take bets on that. I think the issue is how you define louder, by what the audience hears, or by what you mic 9" from the bell.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 14, 2017, 08:49PMDon't go making waves now hahaha
What me? Make waves? Pffft, I'm not known around here as having a contrary opinion, am I????

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:10 am

A few points, gleaned from reading of TTF over the decades, and I am thankful for it as a resource to fill in huge gaps in all of our collective knowledge:

Probably 100,000 posts on TTF relate to Jay Friedman or the Chicago Symphony sound.
Likely principal trombonists of major symphony orchestras turn out many hundreds of times their own numbers as students with qualifications to fill the teacher's chair properly-- or they should be prepared-- once they have a M.Mus. Shouldn't they?

And so, the question!
Q:Who was the U.S. president when Friedman was hired by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?
A: John F. Kennedy

Q: Who was the president of the United States when Friedman was appointed principal trombone there?
A. Lyndon B. Johnson

And so, for 56 years that chair in the Chicago Symphony has NOT been up for audition, or open for a new player.

My question-
Are we, as trombonists doing OURSELVES, any favors by chasing something obsolete since 1961? Can't we try something new? Can't we try something new?
It is NOT just Chicago. Now, go down to your local record store and look on the album jackets and see if you can identify any of the trombones or trombonists on the latest recordings of a Mahler symphony. Oh, wait........ no record stores left. No recordings left.
Sorry. This was a wasted post. Please forget it.

ttf_Dombat · Post by **ttf_Dombat** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:37 am

For me it is a question of getting the job done as best as possible. Sometimes I would really like to have a smaller horn for a movement of a symphony or when I am playing soli with woodwinds, other times I want a horn that can blend down into the low brass... a large bore horn does this job for me well enough, sometimes I have to work more to get the exact sound I want but it all comes out balanced in the end.

In terms of changing horns, it is a nice idea in my opinion but not always possible. I have to play performances of Tchaikovsky Pique Dame, Berg Lulu and Ravel Bolero this week. If I had three horns for thr three works I would be going crazy. I use my (large bore)horn and play the best I can.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:01 am

Quote from: BillO on Feb 14, 2017, 09:14PM???

'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'.

Just sayin' Harrison...

What I was saying is that TEACHERS, referred to by the OP, do students no favors in the performance world as far as auditions for legit jobs go, as mentioned by the OP, by saying:

"Nahhhh, you're right. Forget about getting a largebore tenor, young freshman. You know best a nd we're gonna cultivate that unique sound!"

For more creative music? Say, at Berklee? Sure.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:24 am

Quote from: BillO on Feb 14, 2017, 09:39PMIs it that large bores are 'louder', or is it that they are 'fuller'. I'd be willing to take bets on that. I think the issue is how you define louder, by what the audience hears, or by what you mic 9" from the bell.

Right but you need to remember that it's a recording as a whole. Everything is getting louder with a cleaner signal on recordings across all genres. Recordings are very much realer than real and recreate a performance that never happened.

Now imagine you grew up listening to those same recordings, you've got the job in the orchestra, and you know the audience probably just listened to the program on Naxos before coming so they can be "educated listeners". In many cases in this context a small bore trombone will disappoint you, the orchestra, and the audience. The audience may not even know why, but they likely will think that something was off.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:24 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Feb 15, 2017, 05:10AMA few points, gleaned from reading of TTF over the decades, and I am thankful for it as a resource to fill in huge gaps in all of our collective knowledge:

Probably 100,000 posts on TTF relate to Jay Friedman or the Chicago Symphony sound.
Likely principal trombonists of major symphony orchestras turn out many hundreds of times their own numbers as students with qualifications to fill the teacher's chair properly-- or they should be prepared-- once they have a M.Mus. Shouldn't they?

And so, the question!
Q:Who was the U.S. president when Friedman was hired by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?
A: John F. Kennedy

Q: Who was the president of the United States when Friedman was appointed principal trombone there?
A. Lyndon B. Johnson

And so, for 56 years that chair in the Chicago Symphony has NOT been up for audition, or open for a new player.

My question-
Are we, as trombonists doing OURSELVES, any favors by chasing something obsolete since 1961? Can't we try something new? Can't we try something new?
It is NOT just Chicago. Now, go down to your local record store and look on the album jackets and see if you can identify any of the trombones or trombonists on the latest recordings of a Mahler symphony. Oh, wait........ no record stores left. No recordings left.
Sorry. This was a wasted post. Please forget it.

You are right..... I think it is a bit of a wasted post. Your point is not clear. At least, not to me.
No recordings left? What does that mean? We have easy access to more recordings from around the world more than ever.
I dont understand your point with Chicago. There are distinct differences of sound between major orchestras not just around the world but in America. The New York Phil record a very different Mahler to Chicago. If you cant hear that, you simply aren't listening hard enough.

Cant we try something new? You mean play small bore trombones in orchestral settings? Its been done. As i said earlier in the thread, its still being done by some. Its not popular, but for good reason I think. As I said earlier, some people can do it and sound great! Most can not.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:27 am

It's entirely possible to use a small or medium bore trombone in some orchestral settings, but you have to be very comfortable with it, and it's honestly not appropriate all the time.

For example, Toby Oft of the Boston Symphony is using a Bach 36 for some things these days - Bolero and other French repertoire, for example. I've been at a concert where Jay Friedman and Mick Mulcahy used old small bore instruments for Bolero. I was at another CSO concert where they used those small bores and Charlie played a large bore tenor on the third part of Symphonie Fantastique.

I've played a couple of programs with a guy named David Loucky, who freelances in the Nashville area and teaches at Middle Tennessee State, where he played a Mt. Vernon Bach 8 and I played my 70H. The 2nd trombone players in each case played large bores (actually one was a .525-.547 dual bore with a large shank mouthpiece) but with very focused sounds. We were in an orchestra with a very small but excellent string section and were playing earlier Romantic repertoire - Schubert and Brahms. It worked great; we were able to play with a real dynamic range without having to worry about overbalancing. In bigger repertoire David plays a 42B. I've played other concerts with him where he played a 36B. David is a special player who is very comfortable on all his trombones (and euphonium, and ophecleide, and bass trombone, etc. etc.).

I would like to see this more often, and we're starting to talk about it in one of my orchestras.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:29 am

I guess it all depends on the orchestra, the conductor and the work in question.

Some orchestra are so set to certain type of sound and certain equipment (this is not only about trombones - think trumpets - rotary or pistons, certain type of horns etc...Many gravitate around a rounder, darker sound and certain type of visual conventions (they hear with their eyes). Unless you play in Vienna Philharmonic, I don't think it is a big deal.

If you do something out of the ordinary, but it sounds OK, just pretend that you are using the most traditional equipment on earth - most of the time it will work.

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:31 am

I'm going to blame a specific teacher: I think this is Emory Remington's fault.

Slightly OT, but bass trombonists seem to suffer periodic existential crises because their horns are just really big tenor trombones and it's an underdeveloped instrument and it's a makeshift instrument, etc etc. Wick and Kleinhammer were talking about that in the 70s and 80s.

But Remington has a great deal to do with the popularization of the .547 bore, F-attachment "tenor" as the standard sized "tenor" in classical playing. And a lot of that was likely practicality. Remington's students, armed with their Bb/F instruments, could go forth and audition for any open trombone position in every orchestra. Those were often attached to teaching positions. Thus, those teachers pushed 88H style instruments to their students, and so on. The trombone that kept showing up in the orchestra was a large-bored "tenor" instrument with an F attachment. This necessitated getting a bigger bass trombone, and here we are.

How many of Remington's students ended up in orchestras and teaching at universities? Lots of them. How many of the Chief's students ended up playing jazz professionally? I can't think of a single one.

Big band sections today, with horns hovering around .500 and a larger-bored bass, look like orchestra and band sections looked 100 years ago.

I'm all for a return to smaller equipment on tenor trombones in legit settings; they're easier to play!

Stan

ttf_cmillar · Post by **ttf_cmillar** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:16 am

Here are are my 'sacrilegious' thoughts and observations (coming from me, a legit/orchestrally trained musician who has spent most of my career playing 'commercial, jazz, shows, rock, latin, etc. styles of music, with some great orchestral playing opportunities along the way. I've had great players as teachers, heard great players in all styles, and stand by what I say.)

(By 'best', I refer to the most 'life in the sound', the most inspiring blend of overtones, the most musicality for the given musical style, the most 'moving' to the audience (most of whom don't give a crap about what kind of trombone is being played, and are just using their ears)

My list of what 'moves' me and continually inspires: (I don't really know the rest of the world's players that much, except through recordings or live concerts as noted)

Most 'musically moving' orchestral sounds I've heard:

- a NYC section of Jim Pugh, Ed Neumeister, and Dave Taylor. (2 small/medium bore tenors and Dave's bass trombone)
- any LSO recordings with Denis Wick, principal (Conn 88H) or Ian Bousfield (Conn 88H ?)
- 'ET' soundtrack with Lloyd Ulyate, principal (Bach 12); or most any LA studio film score recordings (mix of horns, from small Bach's and King's to Conn 88H's)
- Vancouver Symphony Orchestra (when they had Gordon Cherry and Greg Cox playing Conn 88H's, and Doug Sparkes playing a Conn bass trombone)

(*..a thought... most of the world has been listening to 'orchestral music' through film scores recorded mostly in LA over the last 80 years. Most of those years the horns were all .495, .500, .508, .509, .525 in size. Only in recent years has there been a demand for 'large bore' horns (.525 or larger). Some of the most 'moving' music in the world has all been created with small or medium bore horns and their inherent sounds.)

'Most musically moving' classical/art music soloists sound (live or recorded):

- Miles Anderson (Bach 12); Ian McDougall (King 2B+); Jim Pugh (Edwards .500); Ed Neumeister (King 3B); Christian Lindberg (Conn 88H); Ronald Borror (Conn 88H, Bach 36B); Glenn Ferris (King 3BF)

'Most musically moving' show/pit players:

- Bruce Eidem, NY (Bach 36); Jack Gale, NY (Bach 36), or all the many fantastic players in NY that have used King 3B's or Bach 16's and 12's

'Most moving' live/recorded sounds of miscellaneous styles that I've had the pleasure of hearing:

Urbie Green, NY (King 2B, Martin)
James Pankow, "Chicago" (King 3B, Yamaha 691)
Sam Burtis, NY (various small/med horns)
Birch Johnson, NY (Bach 12)
Keith O'Quinn, NY (Bach 16?)
the late Jerry Johnson, Toronto (King 2B, 3B, Yamaha 697z)
Al Kay, Toronto (Yamaha 697z, King 2B, Yamaha 646?)
Russ Little, Toronto (King's, Yamaha 697z)
Nils Landgren, Sweden (Yamaha 500/525)
the late Bob Stroup, Edmonton (hybrid .500 horns)
the late Dave McMurdo, Toronto (Williams 6)
Bob Livingston, Toronto (King 2B)
Mark Nightingale, London (small Rath)

BEST SOUND EVER Award: the late, legendary Dave Robbins (Williams 6).

(*true story....when Don Waldrop, the great LA studio bass trombonist was visiting Vancouver, he came to a recording session of 5 trombones/rhythm section and helped 'tonmeister'. Dave Robbins was playing lead. Waldrop said he'd heard of the legendary Dave Robbins' time in LA, but upon hearing him live, Waldrop said he's never, ever heard such an amazing trombone sound, except for maybe Tommy Pederson or Lloyd Ulyate. And he'd heard some pretty awesome LA trombone players in his time there, to be sure.)
Dave had played lead trombone in the Harry James Orchestra, did LA studio work, played everything possible in Vancouver,Canada. He had also played with Denver Symphony, US Presidents Marine's Own Band, and more.

What's the point of my musical musings?

Well, large bore horns are pretty over-rated when it comes to people thinking they 'can serve all musical purposes.' Large bore horns have their time and place, as do small bore horns.

Oh yeah...WORST SOUND EVER Awards go to:

- any Jazz bands that have sections consisting of entirely large-bore horns.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:42 am

Despite wether large bore is easier to play or small bore. Wouldn't it be cool if the top custom trombone designers actually focused time on a making a small bore horn with an f attachment designed for the major symphonic and commercial repertoire? I mean there's just a big gaping whole in the mainstream between these small and large bores. More often in these settings don't we balance with the trumpets and horns? So is it logical in terms of balance and integrity to do things like, balance out the orchestra and diversify the timbre of the section. With so many incredible players who are able to play so well on a small bore with an incredible sound, I just think it is wrong to limit their ability to commercial jazz when the small size fits them well no matter what they play. So as a community there needs to be a demand in the market for these kind of horns (orchestra small bore) and the incredible sound concept they present. Large bore horns are amazing, and we all know that.... But to have a whole section of them,is a little off-putting. Considering the history of our music we play and the characteristic sound they were looking for when writing for the lead Tenor Trombone. It can't be the dead straight standard anymore. I don't think we're doing our beloved instrument as a whole any justice.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:59 am

First, Shires makes a nice 0.508" trombone and they have an F-attachment for it. Apparently smaller bore instruments don't do so well in modular, so the smaller horns are not modular.

Second, if you are playing the higher trombone parts an F-attachment is not necessary. In the "bad old days" they would offer a whole step or half step "trill valve" (still offered on some alto trombones).

You want to use a small bore in symphony? Have at it. But you need to play the large bore to win the audition; after that you can use what helps give the guy in front the sound he's looking for.

Denis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time. They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it. The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:29 am

Before I get started, I will recognise that my following post is intended to rip your post to shreds. You are a "trombone major and professional", so I don't feel bad doing it. I also have the feeling that this topic was prompted because your teacher told you to use certain equipment and you don't want to. Posting huge responses full of baseless claims and false info where you claim to speak for the whole community justifies the following response:

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMWouldn't it be cool...
Here we go...

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AM...if the top custom trombone designers actually focused time on a making a small bore horn with an f attachment designed for the major symphonic and commercial repertoire?
Uh oh... wait, what?

Come on Shires! You need to focus more time into your .525 line of instruments!

And stop making those small bore (.490 - .508) bore trombones with the same options. And the T25 medium bore slide. Not enough time was focused on that.

Shame on you, King. You need to focus more time on your .508 bore 3B/F which has been around since the 60s.

Shame shame, Bach. The 36B just doesn't cut it.

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMI mean there's just a big gaping whole in the mainstream between these small and large bores.
False. See above.

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMMore often in these settings don't we balance with the trumpets and horns?
Very easy to do on large bore instruments. Have you played in an orchestra before or listened to any professional orchestra recordings?

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMSo is it logical in terms of balance and integrity to do things like, balance out the orchestra and diversify the timbre of the section.
Huh?

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMWith so many incredible players who are able to play so well on a small bore with an incredible sound, I just think it is wrong to limit their ability to commercial jazz when the small size fits them well no matter what they play.
Who? Who is an amazing jazz player who actually wants to play in an orchestra? Of that short list, who wants to do so on their jazz horn? The above is completely fabricated and just an idea you think is the case.

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMSo as a community there needs to be a demand in the market for these kind of horns (orchestra small bore) and the incredible sound concept they present.

As a "Trombone major and early professional", you should only speak for yourself. Where is this demand? Are you calling upon the brass community to demand these instruments? It already exists. It's a small specialty demand.

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMLarge bore horns are amazing, and we all know that.... But to have a whole section of them, is a little off-putting.
Have you ever heard an orchestra before? "I'm sorry [insert any major orchestra section here] ... but your section playing is just off-putting."

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AMConsidering the history of our music we play and the characteristic sound they were looking for when writing for the lead Tenor Trombone.
I would say "lead bone" would be written for a small bore. In that cool jazzy notation script. The one thing you should mostly play on small bore and somehow its being played on a symphonic tenor in your world.

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AM It can't be the dead straight standard anymore. I don't think we're doing our beloved instrument as a whole any justice.

You should speak only for yourself.

What year of "trombone major" are you at? Has your teacher told you that you need specific equipment for specific jobs? Is this topic prompted from your unwillingness to buy the right gear for the job you want?

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:35 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 15, 2017, 08:59AMDenis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time. They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it. The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.

Orchestral players had not been using the small stuff for a fair while before Wick. We're going back before WW2. Brass bands were different, and stayed on the small stuff until the late 60s - much longer in some cases.

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:49 am

@Dave

That's absolutely true. Wick picked up Conn trombones, post-war, in the US. There was an embargo in Britain following WWII that prevented the import of brass instruments to foster national industry. The Besson trombones of that era weren't in the same category of the Conns, and so Wick helped several players smuggle Conn instruments into the country when the LPO did concert tours in Florida. After the embargo, the British symphony scene had moved to Conn instruments and were hooked.

I still maintain that Wick and Remington, together, are largely responsible for the use of large-bore instruments in modern English-speaking orchestras.

Stan

ttf_cmillar · Post by **ttf_cmillar** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:56 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 15, 2017, 09:29AM
Very easy to do on large bore instruments. Have you played in an orchestra before or listened to any professional orchestra recordings?

With all due respect to all my fellow trombone players and poster...

...some of the worst, egotistical, out of balance, unmusical, uncalled for, totally disrespectful to the music, totally disrespectful to the conductor, totally oblivious to the audience, and most crass trombone playing comes from a lot of orchestral trombone sections.

Bigger doesn't mean better. Smaller doesn't mean better. It's about balance.

It's about musicality.

A huge, lugubrious trombone section obliterating an orchestra of less than 60 players always sounds ridiculous.

Large bore horns usually sound out of place in concert bands, too. Less nimble, too loud, no focus.

Who's kidding who? We've all been there.... dirty looks from the conductor, disdain from the strings.

Also.... why do orchestral trombone sections all want to sound the same anyways? There's seems to be a conformist attitude to using the same gear, huge mouthpieces, etc. that does a real disservice to the music... to the composer's intentions, the conductors' intentions.

You're a lucky musician if you're in a situation and the conductor actually asks for a change in equipment.

Even luckier if you've had a teacher or colleague clue you in on why you should use different gear for different music.

There should be use of smaller bore horns for orchestral use. That'd be a great trend.

I'm just speaking as a composer/arranger and trombone player who loves music.... more than I love the trombone.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:01 am

Cmillar,

Are you talking about amateur community bands and orchestras? I agree, with you -- poorly played loud trombone is terrible. That has nothing to do with equipment. Small bore wouldn't help in that situation. In my experience, small bore trombones are actually louder and rip through everything.

I usually have conductors asking for more trombone in the brass choirs, orchestras, and concert bands I've played in.

From what I've seen, using large bores in a real symphony actually helps blend. When smaller equipment is used, usually for good reason, the clean sound actually stands out more.

For what it's worth, I believe that both small and large bore has a solid place in the orchestra. The OP posted enough crazy stuff that I felt obliged to reply. In the end, how many people are making enough to live by playing trombone in a symphony? Probably less than 500. They probably all have it figured out about what they want to play on.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:21 am

The tendency towards bigger equipment (bigger mouthpieces, bigger bells, slower flares, larger bore and so on) is usually dictated by three factors in larger orchestras (70+ members):

1. Bigger equipment is more forgiving to loud dynamics (less distortion, the sound is more uniform throughout the range and dynamics)
2. Gives darker sound
3. Less likely to stick out.

Whether this is a good thing, is a POV. But it is kind of logical, at least most of the time.

ttf_uncle duke · Post by **ttf_uncle duke** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:35 am

It'll be alright DaCapo - if you're like me you can make any trombone sound good.

I see the King 2B was mentioned earlier. It is a design that can keep players from overpowering other players if need be. Who would try that horn at an orchestra rehearsal?

Question one for myself would be could I look forward to playing/practicing knowing all I have to look at is a brass colored bell section of a 2B when the case is opened as compared to a rose/red bell horn enabling a few more hours per day of playing just because of a better looking instrument?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:38 pm

Quote from: cmillar on Feb 15, 2017, 09:56AMAlso.... why do orchestral trombone sections all want to sound the same anyways? There's seems to be a conformist attitude to using the same gear, huge mouthpieces, etc. that does a real disservice to the music... to the composer's intentions, the conductors' intentions.But do they actually want to sound the same? Or are they conforming to what has become the norm in the industry? Going along to get along?

My experience is, admittedly, very limited, but it seems that a lot of conductors want a trombone section that can "lay waste to the orchestra", even though they don't want them to ever actually DO it. It's kinda like having a really scary looking dog that's well trained - you not only take pride in the scary dog, but you take even more pride in the fact that said scary dog obeys your every command.

ttf_cmillar · Post by **ttf_cmillar** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:57 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 15, 2017, 10:01AMCmillar,

Are you talking about amateur community bands and orchestras? I agree, with you -- poorly played loud trombone is terrible. That has nothing to do with equipment. Small bore wouldn't help in that situation. In my experience, small bore trombones are actually louder and rip through everything.

I usually have conductors asking for more trombone in the brass choirs, orchestras, and concert bands I've played in.

From what I've seen, using large bores in a real symphony actually helps blend. When smaller equipment is used, usually for good reason, the clean sound actually stands out more.

For what it's worth, I believe that both small and large bore has a solid place in the orchestra. The OP posted enough crazy stuff that I felt obliged to reply. In the end, how many people are making enough to live by playing trombone in a symphony? Probably less than 500. They probably all have it figured out about what they want to play on.

I think one reason some conductors 'ask for more' is because quite often the brilliance of a good trombone sound is lost with some players and their large bore horns. The sound is just bland.

So, the conductor asks for more sound from the trombones.

Which could be solved by having the trombones play a .525 size horn, instead of a .547 with giant mouthpiece.

Just a few more overtones in the right places with a touch of depth to the sound.

Then, you've got a real trombone sound.... not a 'half-euphonium blend'.

A trombone sound that blends in with trumpets when needed to add the 'feel', and that can also sound great as a 'soli-section'.

Food for thought.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:28 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Feb 14, 2017, 03:52PMI've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.

I'm not sure of the origin, but I've always understood that the term "Legit" was used to describe Classically trained musicians. I don't know if it was a slam on Jazzers or vice versus, but it's a pretty common term.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 pm

Quote from: eightyeightH on Feb 14, 2017, 03:39PMI wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments?

For those of you who lead or work with community and/or school bands - does this bother you guys? I never thought of it being a problem before joining this forum. Then again, even then i wasn't super-interested in orchestras or their typical instrumentations.

I very much understand WHY one wouldn't use a large bore on top of small bores, but are there any audio examples to get to HEAR how it sounds? I played first in my high school's band most years on a large bore, but we probably had far bigger problems than an unbalance in instrumentation/instrument selection.