TromboneChat

A problem I often have is that I am required to blast and just play explosively, yet I try, and it is the sloppiest most disgusting thing ever...   how do you play loudly and still make it musical?

If you play at different locations on a regular basis there will be days when your conductor will need more - he'll let you know or should let you know.  That's the way it was with me a long ,long time ago.  Some places just have more curtains and other sound absorbing materials. 

  Something to keep in mind is not to make viola players, for example, have hearing issues if you need to put out more volume.  There were many times when others would of loved to just run a fist thru the bell end of my horn, I'm sure of that.  It is a discipline to be learned.   

Quote from: TomBone4 on Feb 11, 2017, 08:53AM how do you play loudly and still make it musical?

I think it's something you have to practice and refine it much like other technical challenges on the trombone.

You mean this loud?



Seriously, one technique I was taught was to use my long tone practice.  Start as soft as you can play and do a constant crecendo as loud as you can, and then back to as soft as you can.  All in one breath.  No sudden jumps either way.

Then do it in revers: loud to soft to loud.

Keep trying to make the softs softer and the louds louder.

I think you are right, the long tones should help...  I try to play those regularly, but when I tried last week, I fell asleep once I got to f... 

In this case, the loud playing is usually during the dance breaks for show choir...  (if you don't know what show choir is, it is a very tightly choreographed singing and dancing show, usually with a theme.  It really only exists in high school, and it is competitive.  The closest thing that come to it is the show Glee...)


So I am in the band for our varsity show choir, and there are exciting parts when they stop singing, go into a crazy dance routine, accompanied by loud, awesome music, that is where blasting come in.

If there's an extra tuba not in use you could ask to try blowing a tuba in a practice room a few times a week.  Doing that might give you an idea of how much air you could contain but I'm not sure that would help embouchure any.  Secondly, if you're using a decent sized horn at the  present you could try a smaller bore and bell [another trombone] for more volume.

Yes to what Geezer says in the following post.  The first thing you'll need to be looking for while playing is eye contact from the conductor - then it'll be a quick "whoa boy" or an underhanded "follow me this way" signal without he/she losing conducting motion.   

Look at it this way; the best thing ini the world you want to see is the back of the conductor's hand motioning you to play louder. The last thing in the world you want to see is the palm of your conductor's hand, motioning you to back off. Keep that positive thought. Now go practice playing loudly but lovely. Blow from the gut.

...Geezer

Tom, if you control the pitch, the dynamics and the articulation, loud is rarely an issue. The problem is, if you get out of control and you stick out too much, it may very easy get ugly. If the whole section do it together in a controlled fashion it will be tolerable even if the conductor does not agree with your vision or dynamics.

Brass section is a powerful thing - once Rod Franks told me, that if the brass want to lead the whole orchestra in a certain way, not even the conductor cannot prevent it.

You might want to check out this link http://viewfrombackrow.blogspot.com/2010/02/on-playing-loud.html?m=1

It has a link to an excellent handout from A. Kay with his approach to playing loudly and softly.

The first section of Schlossberg is great for this. It looks like a bunch of slow slurs and long tones with specific dynamics, which at first glance might not seem all that helpful, but dynamics and flexibility are very closely related. Air speed, and what it does to the aperture size (as controlled by embouchure) are at the heart of volume control.

The other book that has helped me a lot with this stuff is James Thompson's "The Buzzing Book." Again, the exercises seem simple and the instructions seem super basic, but to really do these studies the way the book asks (while playing in tune, staying on the center of the slot, and having excellent time) is easier said than done.

These are both trumpet books.

It takes time and practice. Make a pledge to never "blast and just play explosively" again. Nobody wants to hear that, and it isn't a step on the way to playing loud well.

Happy practicing!

Is the problem with playing long notes at extreme volumes without having the notes sound edgy or harsh? Or with starting notes with a heavy accent (explosively?) and having them start badly?

I often see students who don't have their chops set before they start a note.  As a result, the first part of the note is chipped, or the pitch fluctuates until the chops set.  This makes for terrible starts to notes, especially when one is trying to play a forte-piano / crescendo or heavy housetop accents in swing music. With accented notes, the first note comes out as "fwaht" instead of "daht".

If this is the problem, it's fairly easy to spot the movement in a mirror.

--Andy in OKC

Quote from: TomBone4 on Feb 11, 2017, 08:53AMA problem I often have is that I am required to blast and just play explosively, yet I try, and it is the sloppiest most disgusting thing ever...   how do you play loudly and still make it musical?

If the embouchure itself is not strong...and I mean muscularly strong...then it cannot sustain the balance between the lips that is necessary for a good sound.

You write:

QuoteI am required to blast and just play explosively, yet I try, and it is the sloppiest most disgusting thing ever...
It sounds to me like your lips are being blown/overblown into the m'pce by your air. When this happens w/strong air...especially w/ a fairly large m'pce and an equally fairly resistant horn so that you don't simply run out of air..."the sloppiest most disgusting thing ever" is a pretty good description of the results.

Cures?

Sure.

1-Long tones. Lots of them, especially in the registers where this happens. I use Carmine Caruso approaches, and coincidentally I just put up a post explaining some of the basic Carmine exercises. Here it is. Check it out. BGuttman above suggests varying volumes on long tones. Go here after you look at the previous link to see how Carmine Carfuso tgaught vartying volume exercises. Done right, they are great for this sort of problem.

2-Equipment. Please tell me what m'pce and horn you are playing. You may be overmatched to some degree at your level of playing. Unfortunately, I see this more and more in high school players who have been given what are essentially symphonic-sized m'pces and trombones to play rah-rah idioms like you are describing. Sometimes a simple change of m'pce will help enormously.

S.

Show choir?

Are you (and any other horns) trying to match amplified instruments without help?

Hairpin long notes making sure that the pitch is held and not allowed to go sharp is always worth a try.

Quote from: sabutin on Feb 12, 2017, 06:09AMIf the embouchure itself is not strong...and I mean muscularly strong...then it cannot sustain the balance between the lips that is necessary for a good sound.

You write:

It sounds to me like your lips are being blown/overblown into the m'pce by your air. When this happens w/strong air...especially w/ a fairly large m'pce and an equally fairly resistant horn so that you don't simply run out of air..."the sloppiest most disgusting thing ever" is a pretty good description of the results.

Cures?

Sure.

1-Long tones. Lots of them, especially in the registers where this happens. I use Carmine Caruso approaches, and coincidentally I just put up a post explaining some of the basic Carmine exercises. Here it is. Check it out. BGuttman above suggests varying volumes on long tones. Go here after you look at the previous link to see how Carmine Carfuso tgaught vartying volume exercises. Done right, they are great for this sort of problem.

2-Equipment. Please tell me what m'pce and horn you are playing. You may be overmatched to some degree at your level of playing. Unfortunately, I see this more and more in high school players who have been given what are essentially symphonic-sized m'pces and trombones to play rah-rah idioms like you are describing. Sometimes a simple change of m'pce will help enormously.

S.




Thanks for the links, I will take a look at them.
I am playing on a Yamaha YSL - 620 with a 48L mouthpiece.



Quote from: JohnL on Feb 12, 2017, 07:30AMShow choir?

Are you (and any other horns) trying to match amplified instruments without help?



Not exactly.  We have an 8 piece horn section, and we are generally the loudest part. 

That's a pretty big horn.  Do you still have a student horn like a Yamaha 354?  I'll bet you can get much louder on that.  But you will have to work harder to be "nicely".

I am not sure that a trombone can play louder infinitely.

If I am playing 90% as loud as I can, and i blow twice as hard, I don't think the trombone will go to 180%.  It may only go to 91% or 92%. 

There's probably a point at which loud and relaxed is as good as the horn is going to put out. 

(Didn't Watrous once say "if you want to hear me play loud, turn the volume knob"?) 

Some people can really drill through the rest of the band.  I don't think that's all just being loud though, and you may not want that lack of blend. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Feb 12, 2017, 12:02PM---snip--- 

(Didn't Watrous once say "if you want to hear me play loud, turn the volume knob"?) 

---snip---
Bill...and a number of other contemporary, post-amplifier trombonists...made a quite conscious decision to become essentially electronic trombonists. Why? Because it's easier to play fast, smoothly and high softly that it is to do the same thing and project. The results speak for themselves.

But...that option is not available for any number of other styles of music...orchestral styles, acoustic big band styles, pan-idiomatic freelancers, latin styles and so on. Especially for student players.

AG

I try to get a nice sound that still fit the context of the music when I play loud. I say try because I'm not sure I always can do it.

But loud or soft, you need to practice both to get a nice sound. And it take some time.

Leif

Quote from: TomBone4 on Feb 12, 2017, 11:00AM


Thanks for the links, I will take a look at them.
I am playing on a Yamaha YSL - 620 with a 48L mouthpiece.
That is very large equipment for that kind of playing, especially for a fairly young student. Part of what you call "loudness" is actually brilliance...a brightness that cuts through like a trumpet. It's hard to make that equipment play that brightly. A good, strong pro can do it, but even pros...like me...tend to use smaller, brighter-sounding equipment if possible in that kind of situation.

Do you have a trombone teacher? Like...someone who actually plays he trombone really well?

Get back to me.

S.

Quote from: sabutin on Feb 12, 2017, 12:41PMThat is very large equipment for that kind of playing, especially for a fairly young student. Part of what you call "loudness" is actually brilliance...a brightness that cuts through like a trumpet. It's hard to make that equipment play that brightly. A good, strong pro can do it, but even pros...like me...tend to use smaller, brighter-sounding equipment if possible in that kind of situation.

Do you have a trombone teacher? Like...someone who actually plays he trombone really well?

Get back to me.

S.




Yep, but we do not practice or work together regularly...


At this point, with the suggestions for a smaller horn, I have a king 606 in alright shape, but the muscle memory for the music is too set in, especially with my mouthpiece to change.  The mp with my King is a 12c.

Quote from: TomBone4 on Feb 12, 2017, 12:58PM
Yep, but we do not practice or work together regularly...


At this point, with the suggestions for a smaller horn, I have a king 606 in alright shape, but the muscle memory for the music is too set in, especially with my mouthpiece to change.  The mp with my King is a 12c.

1-I repeat...do you have a trombone teacher who is a competent trombonist? If you don't...find one.

2-A 606 would probably be workable, but more than likely a 12C would limit you in another direction...you'd get too bright too fast in the dynamic range and be limited in the low range. So-called "muscle memory" can be reprogrammed fairly easily with inbtelligent practice. Off the top of my head...and a good trombone teacher who really knows your playing would be a much better advisor...but off the top of my head I would suggest that you look at 3 fairly common Bach sizes with that horn:

6.5A

6 3/4C

7C

If you can deal with a 48B rim you'll probably feel alright on the 6.5 rim and maybe on the 6 3/4 as well. You might feel a little cramped on the 7 rim, I dunno. All three will make a nice sound at volume on a 606 weith much less effort than is needed for your present equipment. Go to a music store that has them and give them a try on the 606. I think you might be surprised.

S.

S.

Yes, I do have a teacher, but we do not meet regularly.


Thanks so much for the help, I did talk to my instructor and we are going to work on the long tones and actual playing, as opposed to changing mp or horn...


Now for a slightly unrelated question...


Mr. Burtis, I see on websites with things about you that you were the original leader of the Mingus Big Band? 

Did you do the crazy arrangement of Boogie Stop Shuffle that had the amazing intro with the bass and piano and then the song went crazy fast???  I love it so so much


We are playing Boogie Stop for my jazz band. 

Quote from: TomBone4 on Feb 13, 2017, 06:35AMYes, I do have a teacher, but we do not meet regularly.


Thanks so much for the help, I did talk to my instructor and we are going to work on the long tones and actual playing, as opposed to changing mp or horn...


Now for a slightly unrelated question...


Mr. Burtis, I see on websites with things about you that you were the original leader of the Mingus Big Band? 

Did you do the crazy arrangement of Boogie Stop Shuffle that had the amazing intro with the bass and piano and then the song went crazy fast???  I love it so so much


We are playing Boogie Stop for my jazz band. 

Yes, I was. I did not "do" any of the arrangements for the band when I was leading it...what I did do was re-orchestrate about 20 charts of Mingus's (all written for various different instrumentations) for the 3 rhythm, 5 sax, 4 trumpet, 3 trombone instrumentation that I thought would work best for a single band playing all Mingus music. It worked quite well, too. I left after the first recording because...well, let's say because it was taking up too much time and energy to keep the music on the level that Mingus maintained it. There were...I guess "market forces" would the most polite way of putting it...that were fighting to dumb the band down.

I do not remember if I re-ochestrated that chart.

Possibly...

Lots of water under the bridge since then.

So it goes...

S.

Quote from: TomBone4 on Feb 13, 2017, 06:35AMYes, I do have a teacher, but we do not meet regularly.


Thanks so much for the help, I did talk to my instructor and we are going to work on the long tones and actual playing, as opposed to changing mp or horn...


Now for a slightly unrelated question...


Mr. Burtis, I see on websites with things about you that you were the original leader of the Mingus Big Band? 

Did you do the crazy arrangement of Boogie Stop Shuffle that had the amazing intro with the bass and piano and then the song went crazy fast???  I love it so so much


We are playing Boogie Stop for my jazz band. 

Yes, I was. I did not "do" any of the arrangements for the band when I was leading it...what I did do was re-orchestrate about 20 charts of Mingus's (all written for various different instrumentations) for the 3 rhythm, 5 sax, 4 trumpet, 3 trombone instrumentation that I thought would work best for a single band playing all Mingus music. It worked quite well, too. I left after the first recording because...well, let's say because it was taking up too much time and energy to keep the music on the level that Mingus maintained it. There were...I guess "market forces" would the most polite way of putting it...that were fighting to dumb the band down.

I do not remember if I re-ochestrated that chart.

Possibly...

Lots of water under the bridge since then.

So it goes...

S.