TromboneChat

This question had been answered on TTF but was not archived and is now lost. I need to know the physical locations, catalogue numbers, and person to contact for facsimile/copy services for these well known pieces that are often performed on alto trombone. I realize these are published, but I need facsimiles of the oldest available manuscripts. I have a tiny amount of info from memory for two of them. Please help if you are a music librarian or music historian:

Wagenseil, trombone concerto. Exists as a set of parts, and partial score:

Location - Moravian History Museum dept. Of Music http://m.mzm.cz/
Cat# -????
Person to contact - ????

Mozart, L., Serenade in D LMV VIII:D, from which we get the L. Mozart concerto. Exists as a set of parts

Location - Abbey of Seitenstetten music archives, Austria
Cat# - ???
Person to Contact - ???

Haydn, M., Divertimento in D, MH68, from which we get the Haydn "concerto".

Location - ???
Cat# - ???
Person to contact -????

Haydn, M., Concerto for trombone and horn. Is this part of a larger work? Is there a MH#?

Location - ???
Cat# - ???
Person to contact - ???

Haydn, M., "Larghetto in F for alto trombone", Perger no. 34, MH61

Location - ???
Cat# - ???
Person to contact - ???

Albrechtsberger, Concerto for Trombone

Location - ???
Cat# - ???
Person to contact - ???

I have been chugging away at this for years, and some of this info had been given (and subsequently lost on TTF) by Howard W and / or Prof. Kimball. I am not adept at communicating with music librarians, navigating foreign websites, or any of this sleuthy kind of stuff. Can anyone please help me with this project? Perhaps there is a research music librarian someone knows who I can pay to do the legwork?

WayBack machine seems to not work for me, but maybe someone can find the post there in TTF where the libraries for these pieces are listed.

Michael Haydn - Concertino for horn, trombone and orchestra is from the Serenade in D major, P87/MH86 (4th and 5th movements / pages 23 to 55 of 91 - and the designation "Concertino" is original). It exists as a manuscript score.

Location : Music collection, National Széchényi Library, Budapest
Cat # : Ms. mus. II. 82
Contact : not sure my contact is up to date, but it would take you 5 minutes to find contact info for the music collection on the library's website.

I believe the library holds large portions if not the entire Esterhazy Collection, so I would imagine they might very well also have the other two M. Haydn works you mention.

Albrechtsberger is in the archives at the Melk Abbey, if I recall correctly.

For information about the originals and where to find them, a good lead is always to look at the preface of scholarly/critical/complete editions.

Thanks, Maximilien! Is Melk IIRC the Melk Abbey?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:51 pm Thanks, Maximilien! Is Melk IIRC the Melk Abbey?

Sorry that was confusing. Edited.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:47 pm Albrechtsberger is in the archives at the Melk Abbey, if I recall correctly.

I know this was a very old thread, but I didn’t find much information on this elsewhere. I reached out to Melk Abbey to inquire about the Albrechtsberger, and it seems they don’t have the concerto:

“While we have Albrechtsberger manuscripts and autographs in our collection, most of them are sacred -, organ - and chamber music – according to his duties here at Stift Melk. The concerto, however, was composed after he had left the abbey for Vienna in 1767.”

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:47 pm Michael Haydn - Concertino for horn, trombone and orchestra
Location : Music collection, National Széchényi Library, Budapest

I believe the library holds large portions if not the entire Esterhazy Collection, so I would imagine they might very well also have the other two M. Haydn works you mention.

Maximilien’s reference for the Haydn work also seems a likely location for the Albrechtsberger. Again, according to Melk:

“As far as I'm informed, the trombone concerto is (as many of Albrechtsberger's compositions) kept in the Széchényi library in Budapest. A quick research in their catalogue confirms the assumption: https://nektar2.oszk.hu/librivision_eng.html. Upon entering the terms "Albrechtsberger" and "trombone", the system finds several editions of the work. Your interest would of course lie in the object designated as "zenemű kézirat" (music manuscript), Shelfmark Ms. Mus. 2.401. It doesn't say if the music is only a manuscript copy or an autograph but anyway, I guess this is what you're looking for.”

I hope this helps anyone trying to track this down.

muschem wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:41 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:47 pm Albrechtsberger is in the archives at the Melk Abbey, if I recall correctly.

Again, according to Melk:

“As far as I'm informed, the trombone concerto is (as many of Albrechtsberger's compositions) kept in the Széchényi library in Budapest. A quick research in their catalogue confirms the assumption: https://nektar2.oszk.hu/librivision_eng.html. Upon entering the terms "Albrechtsberger" and "trombone", the system finds several editions of the work. Your interest would of course lie in the object designated as "zenemű kézirat" (music manuscript), Shelfmark Ms. Mus. 2.401. It doesn't say if the music is only a manuscript copy or an autograph but anyway, I guess this is what you're looking for.”

I hope this helps anyone trying to track this down.

The autograph of the Albrechtsberger Concerto is indeed in the National Széchényi Library, Budapest: Ms. Mus. 2401. Surprisingly, it's not a fair copy, but rather a working copy with a lot of deletions (cross outs) and reworkings, which might explain, for example, why there are no continuo figures in the bass part.

Howard

>Wagenseil
>Location - Moravian History Museum dept. Of Music http://m.mzm.cz/
>Cat# -????
>Person to contact - ????

A good first contact would be David Blum or Barbara Strauss at the Moravian Music Archive Southern Province, both trombonists. They have been hard at work for years putting the archive's holdings online in the form of a dedicated WorldCat.org database called GmeinKat.

https://moravianmusic.on.worldcat.org/discovery

It looks to me like the source you want might be the Kromeritz Archive.

Kromeriz, Czech Republic : Musical Archive of the Kromeriz Chateau, [2009]
Photocopy of original manuscript held in the Musical Archive, Kromeriz Chateau.

Kromeritz was allied with the Catholic church, but musicians there (including H.I.F. Biber) were reputedly on friendly terms with Moravian musicians in the vicinity. Good luck with your search.

heldenbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:48 pm >Wagenseil
>Location - Moravian History Museum dept. Of Music http://m.mzm.cz/
>Cat# -????
>Person to contact - ????

A good first contact would be David Blum or Barbara Strauss at the Moravian Music Archive Southern Province, both trombonists. They have been hard at work for years putting the archive's holdings online in the form of a dedicated WorldCat.org database called GmeinKat.

It seems to me that you have something mixed up here: the Moravian History Museum is the historical museum of the Czech region of Moravia, which lies south/southeast of Bohemia. The Moravian Music Archive is undoubtedly the archives of the Moravian Church (aka Herrenhuter Brüdergemeine, also Unitas Fratrum). Aside from the "Moravian" in their respective English names, they have nothing in common.

As far as the Wagenseil trombone concerto is concerned, here is the relevant info:

Wagenseil, Georg Christoph (b. Vienna, 1715; d. Vienna, 1777)
Concerto: Trb conc; 2Vn, Va, 2Fl, 2Hn, b
1. [Andante]
2. Allegro assai
Source: CZ-KRa A 3783 [2 sets of parts]
[Czech Republic, Kroměříž, Arcibiskupský zámek - Hudební sbírka]

In addition to the Kroměříž manuscripts, Janetzky claims to have also used contemporary sets of parts in Viennese and Wrocław collections as sources for his edition, but subsequent researchers have not been able to find or even confirm the existence of these sources.
The first set of parts in Kroměříž is written on 10-staff music paper with the title Concerto on the first staff of each part before the beginning of the musical notation; this set displays a number of awkward page turns and a Dal Segno al Fine repeat in each part in the second movement.
The second set of parts is written on 12-staff music paper and was obviously copied from the first set; the two additional staves per page made it possible for the copyist to avoid awkward page turns and obviated the need (with one exception) for Dal Segno repeats.
The trombone part of the second set erroneously displays a treble clef on the first three staves, but is nevertheless correctly notated in alto and (in a single passage of the second movement) tenor clef. The trombone part of the first set also displays the same tenor-clef passage.
The folder in which the two sets of parts are kept in CZ-KRa bears the somewhat faded inscription Posaunen Concert [v]o[n] Wagenseil und Reiter (Trombone Concerto by Wagenseil and Reiter). It has been surmised that Reiter refers to Wagenseil’s contemporary Georg Reutter the Younger (1708–72) and that the concerto was in some manner a collaborative effort by the two composers. However, a subsequent eighteenth-century transposed part for the two horns also found in the folder bears the annotation corni transpostati al concertina del S: Wagenseil.

Howard

| heldenbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:48 pm
| >Wagenseil
| >Location - Moravian History Museum dept. Of Music http://m.mzm.cz/
| >Cat# -????
| >Person to contact - ????
|
|It seems to me that you have something mixed up here: the Moravian History Museum is the historical museum of the |Czech region of Moravia, which lies south/southeast of Bohemia. The Moravian Music Archive is undoubtedly the |archives of the Moravian Church (aka Herrenhuter Brüdergemeine, also Unitas Fratrum). Aside from the "Moravian" in |their respective English names, they have nothing in common.
|

Thank you for the detailed information, and the presumption of ignorance. The WorldCat entry correctly points to the Czech museum as the home of the original document(s), but also notes that the Southern archive owns a photocopy here in the US.