“Taming” a nickel slide

[pompatus]

I’m playing an Edwards TBCAN slide on my Bach LT42TG bell. I’ve come to really love the response a LW nickel slide provides, but there’s a hardness to the sound that I’m trying to tame. The only lead pipe I have for that slide right now is an Edwards yellow brass T2L.

How much a would a softer lead pipe material, such as copper or gold brass or something else(?) help to tame the hardness of sound with the all-nickel slide? Would a different taper in the lead pipe make a larger difference than the material? I only mention the lead pipe because it’s the cheapest part to experiment with, but I’m open to any insight or suggestion.

Thanks, for any opinions you guys might share.

Terry

[Matt K]

I find in a lot of cases if I go overboard on nickel on a horn that making changes that would generally 'widen' or broaden the sound tend to help smooth things out. This can include unsoldered bell bead, potentially removing some nickel (swapping out the crook for example), or going for a bigger tapered pipe can work. I also really dig sterling pipes, which tend to make my sound a bit "denser". Unfortunately, those aren't cheap!

However, that said... your original slide was also all-nickel right? Nickel is a funny thing; on some horns, my impression was that sine 'm a bright player, I need to do things to the horn that make my horn darker. On the contrary, sometime adding more components that make articulating easier wind up giving me more colors than going the other way around. At any rate; how does the horn compare with the original slide? The answer may well alter what recommendations you receive.

[pompatus]

... your original slide was also all-nickel right? Nickel is a funny thing; on some horns, my impression was that sine 'm a bright player, I need to do things to the horn that make my horn darker. On the contrary, sometime adding more components that make articulating easier wind up giving me more colors than going the other way around. At any rate; how does the horn compare with the original slide? The answer may well alter what recommendations you receive.

A little more background... Originally, this bell is from a Jay Friedman model Bach 42TG. So, lightweight gold brass “star-stamped” Bach 42T bell with an all-nickel lightweight Bach 50 slide. The original setup is incredibly responsive, and plays surprisingly well for being .562 bore; however, it can be an air-hog and doesn’t exactly lend itself well to more delicate playing and chamber ensemble work, at least in my hands. I’ve always felt the original setup was very well balanced, despite its’ size, and that the large slide adds a lot of warmth to the lightweight bell. The horn could feel a bit unfocused sometimes, as though it lacked projection, though conductors always told me it was fine on their side of the bell.

My layman’s review aside, I’m not Jay Friedman and don’t need the massive tenor to fill his regular venue, hence the Edwards TBCAN (.547 bore, “Bach” crook, all-nickel). The Edwards slide definitely makes the horn feel and play like a typical large tenor. Still very responsive and articulate, and a great sound in the practice hall. I was booked in a quintet for a wedding a couple of weekends ago, which was the first ensemble I’d thrown this horn at since adjusting to the new slide, and found the sound to be a bit on the hard side, very clear, compared to the rest of the ensemble (all professional musicians). Not an uncharacteristic trombone sound, but difficult to color.

I’ve been considering going smaller still, and offering the slide in trade for an Edwards .525 or dual bore .525/.547, but experimenting with a different pipe still remains among the cheapest options, assuming the consensus is that it’s a justifiable one.

[TheBoneRanger]

...but there’s a hardness to the sound that I’m trying to tame...

For me, that is what sways me away from nickel slides on large bore horns. "Hardness" is the exact term I would use to describe those slides, perhaps in conjunction with "brittle."

I had a Bach 50T3 that I never got along with until changing to a brass slide. I never found a leadpipe or mouthpiece to overcome it. Equally, I've heard many Bach players, live, playing nickel slides on both 42's and 50's, who's tone is a little "hard" and has been lacking core, and on closer inspection discover they were playing nickel slides...

Now the 50 slide on a 42 bell might be a slightly different proposition for some. But it wasn't for me. I'll have a brass slide on any large bore horn, thank you!

Andrew

[baileyman]

The inside tubes are always nickel, aren't they? So is it the small amount of exposed outer plus the crook that is the issue?

[pompatus]

I've always thought inner tubes were most often chrome plated brass?

[BGuttman]

All the inner tubes I've seen have been rubber

It seems the better grade horns use nickel-silver (a copper alloy) for the inner slide tubes while many older instruments and cheaper instruments use brass. Some older instruments had nickel plate instead of chrome while others had no plating at all (we're talking over 100 years old).

[GabrielRice]

I play a Shires set-up similar to what you describe when I play tenor: B62NLW slide and Chicago model bell (lightweight gold brass one-piece). I find I do like a smaller leadpipe than I play on bass (Shires 1.5 or Brass Ark MV50), and I also like the way a gold brass or copper pipe works in this slide. I play a yellow brass leadpipe on bass.

[Bonearzt]

I've always thought inner tubes were most often chrome plated brass?

Nope, chrome plated nickel-silver. Ironically there is little to no silver in nickel-silver...


Eric

[Doug Elliott]

Inner slides are almost always nickel silver for two reasons: nickel silver tends to stay straighter than brass, and it's less affected by corrosion on the inside.

[havard]

i believe a red brass mt vernon slide crook from m/k drawings would make wonders for a nickel slide .
i feel nickel and red brass is a good match .
i have thought about the combo nickel and sterling silver . though identical color they play very differently . sterling much softer and dense in sound . they are populær leadpipes. maybe a red crook and sterling silver leadpipe, both from m k.

[Mv2541]

This would probably be the time for a Brad Close Mv42 leadpipe in seamed copper. Maybe the slide crook too like others said.

[Walleye]

Another option is to try different tuning slides. I am playing a Bach 42 nickel bell, Instrument Innovations rotary valve, Bach 42/36 gold brass tuning slide and an Edwards TDBAN (.47/.62) nickel slide. I get more overtones with the gold brass TS. A yellow brass TS doesn't work..

[Bassbonechandler]

I've thought about getting a nickel Edwards slide for my getzen because I really like how the bach nickel slides play. Is that worth it? If have to change the tenon or order a "conn" version.

[pompatus]

I've thought about getting a nickel Edwards slide for my getzen because I really like how the bach nickel slides play. Is that worth it? If have to change the tenon or order a "conn" version.

The Edwards slide should fit your Getzen perfectly, as they're both made by same factory. (Getzen is the parent company of Edwards) I really like the response of the nickel slide on my Bach, and will be looking more into some of the options being discussed here.

[Bassbonechandler]

Don't they have different tenons?

[pompatus]

I believe the modern tenons to be the same. There was a time, possibly even still, that Edwards would build a slide with a Conn tenon at the customer's request. It might not hurt to give them a call and ask, just to confirm and for peace of mind.

[Matt K]

Getzen tenon are in fact different. You might be able to order one with a getzen tenon but historically they haven't allowed mixing getzen with Edwards components.

[pompatus]

That's a bummer. I'm surprised they wouldn't use the same.

[Matt K]

Well, given that their Getzen are basically just popular Edwards configurations, they'd basically be selling a cheaper Edwards so I can understand. I think what Shires did with the Q series makes sense. Gets people feet wet and allows them to customize.

That said, I'll have a Getzen tenon for sale pretty soon. I'm making it compatible with my Shires so I won't have any need for it.

You could also go the other way and make your Getzen modular with Edwards. The bell posts won't line up unless you do that too... its more expensive but then Bach etc. would all fit it. Depends on how serious you are.

To be honest, if I were in your shoes, I'd give the carbon fiber outer a real thought. I wish I didn't have so many projects going on at the moment. I'd have at least one!

[Bassbonechandler]

Well, given that their Getzen are basically just popular Edwards configurations, they'd basically be selling a cheaper Edwards so I can understand. I think what Shires did with the Q series makes sense. Gets people feet wet and allows them to customize.

That said, I'll have a Getzen tenon for sale pretty soon. I'm making it compatible with my Shires so I won't have any need for it.

You could also go the other way and make your Getzen modular with Edwards. The bell posts won't line up unless you do that too... its more expensive but then Bach etc. would all fit it. Depends on how serious you are.

To be honest, if I were in your shoes, I'd give the carbon fiber outer a real thought. I wish I didn't have so many projects going on at the moment. I'd have at least one!

I know conn slides work with getzen and vice versa so I could just order one for a conn.

[GBP]

That's a bummer. I'm surprised they wouldn't use the same.

It is very cheap to change then tenon out.

[Jimkinkella]

A copper lead pipe or tuning slide would definitely make a difference.
Brass ark will do a trial on drawn pipes.

[BillO]

I'd suggest trying a sterling or pure silver lead pipe.