Alternative Slide Lubricants

[tskeldon]

Hello,

As I've said in previous seminal posts, I'm just getting back into this after 30 years away! Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of the old paradigms still persist, so I wanted to spawn some new avenues of consideration.

So, I was wondering...has anyone tried Frog Lube CLP (or non-solvent based firearms lubricant like Slip 2000); its an organic fire arms lubricant, that is dry in stasis, and liquefies under friction/heat.

Correctly used (and that's a hard thing to get shooters habituated to the differential application of petroleum based lubricants to do) its works wonderfully on my 70's vintage Colt AR15 SP1

It is designed for service under much higher duress, and much tighter tolerances, under much more adverse climactic conditions, and its smells great! It seems to me that there might be some potential there.

I don't even have an instrument to try it on just now, but I thought I would put it out there, because I know that some of you will have fire arms experience too.

Tim

P.S. Apparently you can eat the stuff too; for those of you who are inclined to put your fingers in your mouth and are tired of the solvent taste of valve oil and Super Slick.

[BGuttman]

I've never heard of it being used.

I'm a bit skeptical. The amount of heat generated by firearms is (and should be!) a lot more than the heat generated by slide motion.

If you are looking for a cheap slide lube, use Pond's Cold Cream. It doesn't work as well as it used to but it still works.

[peteedwards]

Pond's Cold Cream. It doesn't work as well as it used to

perhaps because they quit using whale oil in Ponds in the 1970's

[BGuttman]

They actually went to a number of synthetic materials including synthetic beeswax and (I believe) Ceresin. I would suspect they also changed the mixing to use a more efficient mixer and this may have homogenized the stuff too much to use as a trombone slide lube.

I've found that I need to use less new Pond's than old Pond's and it doesn't last as long.

[Posaunus]

The hard work has already been done, by experts in trombone slide lubrication.

Skip the Frog Lube, the Pond's cold cream, and the Super Slick - instead drop by your local music store and spend a few bucks (<$10.00) for a modern, effective long-lasting trombone slide lubricant. My candidates:
• Slide-O-Mix (2-part)
• Yamaha Slide Lubricant
• Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort (1-part)
• Ultra-Pure Slide Lube (new formula)

That small bottle of lubricant, use properly (i.e., sparingly), should last at least a year - probably more.

[peteedwards]

I use the plastic can of Bach slide cream that came with the horn I bought new in 1993. I still have half left & I re-lube every 3 days or so. it doesn't take much!

[Pre59]

I use Rapid Comfort, and read somewhere that it works better being stored at a lower temperature. I've had one in the fridge overnight and have another on order. If this is correct then I'll keep one in the fridge and one in the case for top-ups.

[SimmonsTrombone]

I use just the Yamaha on my new Edwards slide. My 50-year old Conns and Holton seem to do better with a light coat of trombotine with the Yamaha added instead of water.

[Bonearzt]

The hard work has already been done, by experts in trombone slide lubrication.
Skip the Frog Lube, the Pond's cold cream, and the Super Slick - instead drop by your local music store and spend a few bucks (<$10.00) for a modern, effective long-lasting trombone slide lubricant. My candidates:
• Slide-O-Mix (2-part)
• Yamaha Slide Lubricant
• Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort (1-part)
• Ultra-Pure Slide Lube (new formula)
That small bottle of lubricant, use properly (i.e., sparingly), should last at least a year - probably more.

I TOTALLY agree!!!! But I will add Trombotine to the top of the list as my preferred slide lube!

IMHO, the liquids work well on newer, pristine tubes, where the creams, I think, tend to fill in the corroded spots on older tubes to make them work better.


Eric

[tskeldon]

Hi guys!

Thanks for the replies. I have no experience of any of the newer products you mention but I will certainly try them all. Money is not a problem for me, but I am loathed to pay for snake oil (posing as trombone oil), when clever people, working outside of our paradigm, seem to me to be on to something. I finished playing in the mid 80"s and Conn Sureslick (along with the little bottle of oil, that was, I think, called D3) was the popular option for those trapped in the 'serious' trombonist paradigm. That being said, I'm going to find a slide and experiment with some alternative methods; after all, this is supposed to be a hobby that engages on all levels, and you can only play so much. If life has taught me anything, its that the 'experts', in this case, those who develop trombone slide lubricants for the purpose of sale, are as likely to be trapped in their retail and pedagogical thinking as anyone else (which includes 'so-called' scientists, who I find contribute little of significance unless they are additionally, as it is said of them, MAD!). If I come up with anything 'special' I will post back. I've attached a product sheet to explain what Frog Lube is in principle for those of you who are not involved with fire arms. Did I mention that it smells great! Like winterfresh gum.

Tim

http://froglube.com/latest-froglube-new ... -froglube/

P.S. I both like and dislike the idea of combining lubricant methods, because the simple addition of elements to the method or formula is the first thing that those who develop any product or system investigate to stretch the serviceability of their base formula (standing on the shoulders of giants). In the case of Frog Lube, it doesn't work at all if you keep reapplying it like oil to service your belief that only wetness can reduce friction (when in fact friction is something that happens a a molecular level that is unaffected by moisture), or carry on with your 'conventional' solvent based firearm lubricant cleaning routine. It only works as a system divorced from all convention, expectation and practice. Convention is both the progenitor and executioner of 'innovation' (which should not be confused with advancement or improvement; though neither is it precluded from participating in either of those).

[Posaunus]

I TOTALLY agree!!!! But I will add Trombotine to the top of the list as my preferred slide lube!

IMHO, the liquids work well on newer, pristine tubes, where the creams, I think, tend to fill in the corroded spots on older tubes to make them work better.

Eric

Eric,

You may be right - in fact given your reputation, I'm sure that you ARE right. But in my case, although I play only wonderful "older" trombones (vintage 1958-1976), none of them have any visible corroded spots, and all (after a single tune-up by a master slide technician) respond marvelously to minimal application of any of the liquid lubricants I listed. [I'd rate all their slides at least 9 out of 10.] I guess I should count myself among the lucky ones!

Surely, none of these products resemble "snake oil" - whether or not they were developed within the "trombonist paradigm," they each pass the only test that matters: they work well, with minimal fuss and muss, for extended time periods, and essentially negligible (or at least VERY affordable) cost! Thanks to all these companies for meeting the needs of trombonists, from amateurs to professionals.

[greenbean]

The hard work has already been done, by experts in trombone slide lubrication.
Skip the Frog Lube, the Pond's cold cream, and the Super Slick - instead drop by your local music store and spend a few bucks (<$10.00) for a modern, effective long-lasting trombone slide lubricant. My candidates:
• Slide-O-Mix (2-part)
• Yamaha Slide Lubricant
• Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort (1-part)
• Ultra-Pure Slide Lube (new formula)
That small bottle of lubricant, use properly (i.e., sparingly), should last at least a year - probably more.

I TOTALLY agree!!!! But I will add Trombotine to the top of the list as my preferred slide lube!

IMHO, the liquids work well on newer, pristine tubes, where the creams, I think, tend to fill in the corroded spots on older tubes to make them work better.


Eric

These two posts capture all a person needs to know about slide lube, IMO. These are fantastics products. They were game-changers when they were introduced. And, like Eric, I use Trombotine for older or otherwise scratchy slides.

[Geordie]

I find a spray of Lemon Pledge polish on the inner slide now and then that is allowed to dry and followed by yammie snot works well on my vintage horns. Just sayin’ ....

[tskeldon]

Hey everyone,

It seems to me that the stress set upon a trombone slide generates neither the heat of combustion, nor the speed and friction of a bolt moving at almost 3000 ft/second inside an automatic rifle. Neither are the tolerances of a trombone slide anywhere near as tight as the components in the a bolt carrier group of a semi-automatic weapon.

That is not a bad thing, because heat and friction are components of one another, which is to say, you can't have more friction without having more heat. Similarly, you can't have less friction, and not have less noise; and vice versa. In theory, with dry lubricants, you only ever draw upon the lubrication as much as the heat/friction requires in service at a molecular level; as you play more without a break, you get more lubrication.

That being the case it seems to me that if this system offers a more (performance) for less (product) value, I'm going to give it a whirl. I haven't tried it yet, because I still don't have an instrument, but I have a couple on the way. Now that we understand the molecular mechanics of friction, dry lubricants like this have replaced wet ones in so many machines.

Having said all of that, I hypothesize that there is still a possibility that the area of the contact surface on a slide may generate more noise (especially in a slide that is old and out of true) in a dry configuration than a player could be comfortable with, even though the physics says 'no'. I think that trombonists are often inclined to lubricate every time they hear a friction sound (in a hushed environment), even though the slide is working well.

This is why so many trombonists end up with thick syrupy slides, and spend gallons of water on them trying to compensate for their over servicing of lubricant. For those of you who love spritzing your slide, from lube was designed with exposure to water, 'frog', in mind. You can spay to your hearts content without washing it off (thought it can be removed if you wish).

I'm excited to try it (but then my other areas of interest include things like 'fluid dynamics' and the dialectric properties of signal carriers cables). I'm not a fan of science per say (for it is only ever right until they realize that it is wrong), I am a huge fan of breaking with traditions that are supported by what amount to mythology and received truths (paradigms that obstruct progress). I'll post back when I've tried it.

Tim

P.S. I bought all of the products you have recommended here to try when I am again 'with instrument'.

[BGuttman]

Caution: make sure to remove ALL of the old lube before you put on a new one. The compatibilty across brands is inconsistent. I think that would be especially true for your dry lube system.

I should point out that the original slide oil was sometimes used with a water spray. Then we discovered that cold cream worked better with the water spray.

[peteedwards]

I hypothesize that there is still a possibility that the area of the contact surface on a slide may generate more noise (especially in a slide that is old and out of true) in a dry configuration than a player could be comfortable with, even though the physics says 'no'. I think that trombonists are often inclined to lubricate every time they hear a friction sound (in a hushed environment), even though the slide is working well.

This is why so many trombonists end up with thick syrupy slides, and spend gallons of water on them trying to compensate for their over servicing of lubricant. For those of you who love spritzing your slide, from lube was designed with exposure to water, 'frog', in mind. You can spay to your hearts content without washing it off (thought it can be removed if you wish).

I have found that condensation on the inside of the outer slide is a sufficient lubricant all by itself. I never spray my slide. It is also never dry.

[Pre59]

I use Rapid Comfort, and read somewhere that it works better being stored at a lower temperature. I've had one in the fridge overnight and have another on order. If this is correct then I'll keep one in the fridge and one in the case for top-ups.

The new bottle has a thicker consistency than the old(er) one, which is thinner and more milky. I don't think that Rapid Comfort ages very well.

[afugate]

I think that trombonists are often inclined to lubricate every time they hear a friction sound (in a hushed environment), even though the slide is working well.

I can't speak for others, but what it feels like is the only criteria that matters to me.

--Andy in OKC

[harrisonreed]

Isn't CLP usually a carcinogen? And the force that a weapon generates through it's action is far greater than you'd want when moving your slide. I'd imagine that gun oil is far more viscous (longer lasting) than the silocone lubes we usually use on a trombone slide, and can be since a gas operated weapon will cycle no problem even when completely dry, lubed, etc as long as it isn't dirty.

CLP sometimes is designed to become a dry film that still acts as a lube on a weapon.

None of that sounds great for a slide.

[Leisesturm]

Philip Farkas uses (used) and recommends 'gun grease' in his treatise (bible) on French Horn playing published in 195?. Note that this was only for the main and valve slides! A Trombone slide needs a lubricant more like the rotors of the valves in a French Horn i.e. MUCH less viscous. I use three different viscosities of oil and grease on my French Horn. The lightest oil in the valves, a heavier oil for the bearings and linkages, and a still heavier grease on the main and valve slides. I've tried other brands but at the present time I am using Hetman products. Maybe firearms applications require multiple grades of lubrication like horns, and maybe their performance matches exactly the two main lubrication points of Trombones (tuning slide, hand slide) but I don't see why they would. Or should. FWIW the slide oil that came with my new King straight tenor is very nasty smelling and I don't like it. I don't think a few to ten bucks too much to pay for a bottle (or tube) of slide lubricant and I am inclined to give the Yamaha Slide Cream (not the oil) a try because the creams seem not to be made with petroleum distillates, and Yamaha slide care products appear to be well regarded.

Ever since becoming a brass musician (~10 years) I have seen the recommendation on and off for the use of firearms related accessories in the maintenance of brass instruments. This advice is usually presented without irony, but I for one never miss the irony implicit (explicit?) in such advice. It would be one thing if oils, greases, creams and etc. dedicated to the restoration of brass instruments did not exist, but they do. And the price of them should not present an undue financial hardship to someone able to afford a decent brass instrument in the first place. Be it the dispatch of wild game, paper targets, or ne'er do wells, the discharge of a firearm is nevertheless a violent, destructive energy. Period. I consider that antithetical to the purpose of a musical instrument. Why not let guns be guns, and let musical instruments make music, free of the baggage of any association, however tangential, with instruments of killing/destruction. That is just my opinion.

[BGuttman]

@Liesesturm: Back in the Bad Old Days we used many "foreign" products for trombone lubrication. Slide oil smelled terrible back then and it didn't last so we learned that Pond's Cold Cream worked pretty well as a handslide lubricant. That started the various cream lubricants like Superslick, Conn Formula 3, and the generic creams often supplied with trombones. With the advent of silicone lubricants it was discovered that certain formulations work great as handslide lubes resulting in Slide-O-Mix, Rapid Comfort, and the Yamaha "oil". Yamaha cream is the generic similar to Conn Forumula 3 (or Bach Slide Cream, etc.).

For tuning slides we discovered that Vaseline Peroleum jelly worked pretty well. Then somebody tried anhydrous lanolin which worked even better. Again, silicones to the rescue. Dow-Corning has a variety of greases that work pretty well. As a scientist I tried High Vacuum Stopcock Grease and it worked REALLY well.

For my rotor spindles I use a spindle oil called Mobil Velocite 10. It's really intended for high speed spindle rotation but it seems to work pretty well for my low speed rotor spindles.

Some of the things I mentioned don't represent a savings from the typical cost of a bottle of slide lube or grease.

But there's always somebody trying to find something other than what we can buy that works as well or better.

[ghmerrill]

Dow-Corning has a variety of greases that work pretty well. As a scientist I tried High Vacuum Stopcock Grease and it worked REALLY well.

That's what I've been using for some years after switching to it from anhydrous lanolin. The Dow-Corning stuff is pretty pricey. If you want something similar (silicone grease) in a smaller quantity than the Dow-Corning, you can usually find it in a smaller tube (or small plastic container about the same size as for cork grease) in the plumbing sections of Lowes, Home Depot, etc.

[sacfxdx]

I never could understand why folks don’t just use the lubes that are designed for trombones slides. They are not THAT expensive.

[Posaunus]

I never could understand why folks don’t just use the lubes that are designed for trombones [handslides, tuning slides, valves]. They are not THAT expensive.

And the various "brand name" trombone lubricants (Hetman, Slide-O-Mix, Yamaha, Ultra-Pure, Trombotine ...) all work well, as advertised! If you stay within our quirky little market niche, you will do pretty well.

[BGuttman]

I never could understand why folks don’t just use the lubes that are designed for trombones slides. They are not THAT expensive.

Most of these "specialized" lubes came out after we were using the alternatives. Cheseborough-Ponds changed the composition of Pond's Cold Cream and we wound up with Trombotine, Superslick, and Conn Formula 3.

Hetman's has only been peddling lubes for a relatively short time.

Do these specialized lubes work well? Yes. But they were not the originators.

[Jnoxon]

Speaking of snake oil... Bert Herrick used to have little jars of slide cream looked and felt similar to Ponds Cold Cream. Well that's because it was! His wife worked for Ponds out in the San Fernando Valley she used to bring Ponds home in 5 gallon bucket and Bert would put into the little jars and resell it, just sayin..........

[greenbean]

...
Hetman's has only been peddling lubes for a relatively short time.
...

Peddling?? I think Hetmans deserves a better verb than "peddling." Their lubes are top-notch!

[greenbean]

Speaking of snake oil... Bert Herrick used to have little jars of slide cream looked and felt similar to Ponds Cold Cream. Well that's because it was! His wife worked for Ponds out in the San Fernando Valley she used to bring Ponds home in 5 gallon bucket and Bert would put into the little jars and resell it, just sayin..........

^^ This is hilarious!

I have a little jar of that stuff.! I will have to try it...

[Savio]

I changed from rapid comfort to the yamaha stuff. The rapid comfort seems to change consistence when temperature changes. The yamaha stuff works nice on my old trombones. And the black stuff inside outer slide disappeared.
Leif

[ronnies]

I think you have to find what works for your individual trombone. My 40 year old tub of SuperSlick works fine on my Chinese made bass but was scratchy on my 1982ish Bach 42. Slide-o-mix Rapid Comfort however works fine on the Bach. Not tried it on the bass yet.

Ronnie

[2bobone]

My first experience with ANY slide lube was as a student in the 50's. I was accepted to ESM as a euphonium player and in my Junior year realized that being proficient on trombone would be a wise move. Emory Remington loaned a Conn trombone with a lanyard-style valve trigger and a press-fit bell-to-slide junction to me and I was ready for my first trombone lesson. I dutifully bought a jar of Pond's Cold Cream, a spray bottle and tore up an old tee shirt to prepare the slide for action. Even then I was aware to provide enough cloth to be able to pull it out of the slide without jamming. I was very pleased with myself ---- until I applied a light coat of the Pond's and assembled the slide. It wasn't just bad ---- it was horrible !! Being new at the game, I knew nothing more than to repeat the same sequence and was dismayed to get the same result ---- over and over again. {What is it that they say about people who do the same thing over and over again expecting different results ?] Anyway, it was getting close to my first lesson time so I packed up the horn and walked into Don Knaub's teaching studio. I explained my dilemma to him as he gave the slide a look-see. He watched as I repeated my futile attempt to lube the slide and affirmed that I was doing everything correctly ----- but ------- would I please let him see my jar of Pond's Cold Cream ? The mystery was soon solved, as I had unknowingly bought Pond's "Vanishing" Cream instead of "Pond's COLD Cream" ! I must leave it to the chemists on the Forum to ferret out the chemical difference as I obviously didn't know then and still don't !! When Pond's changed their formula I switched to Conn SuperSlick with the little bottle of Silicone oil and never looked back.

[Savio]

So you guys look in your wife's bath room things to make it slide better? That stuff I wouldn't touch....
is there any stuff that can clean the the slide and at the same time make the slide go easy?

[BGuttman]

I found out about cold cream from my trombone teacher who had a huge jar of the stuff on a bookshelf in his studio.

Back then there was no Bach slide cream, no Trombotine, no Rapid Comfort or Slide-O-Mix, or anything else that we like today. There was cold cream or slide oil. And the slide oil was awful.

[Cmillar]

I use just the Yamaha on my new Edwards slide. My 50-year old Conns and Holton seem to do better with a light coat of trombotine with the Yamaha added instead of water.

Wow!...I've been trying this the past couple of weeks on my Bach 16 slide (it's from the '70's).

Amazing....best slide response I've ever, ever had!

Just a thin coating of Trombotine on the stockings, and then some Yamaha lube on the top of the slides (by hand grip) seems to work wonders for me.

I haven't touched the slide in about 4 days now, even after some heavy use.

Thanks for this tip!!!!!!

[BGuttman]

So you guys look in your wife's bath room things to make it slide better? That stuff I wouldn't touch....
is there any stuff that can clean the the slide and at the same time make the slide go easy?

The stuff we like to use now was a result of somebody trying a bunch of things out to see what could improve on slide oil (or older Pond's Cold Cream, which was no longer available).

There is still the thrill of the chase for many of us. I found that a Mobil spindle oil (Velocite #5) worked great on my rotors. I also found that a silicone grease meant for high temperatures and Thompson Shafts worked great as a tuning slide lube. For all I know, Hetman may be repackaging both those materials as their product.

Experimenting with odd materials is OK, but you have to be ready for an epic fail. Not everything will work. And some of the things may be very hard to remove once you put them on.

If you don't want to risk the epic fail, don't look for oddball materials as lubes. Given how well some of the stuff we have today works, your chances of finding something better are slim.

[afugate]

There is still the thrill of the chase for many of us. I found that a Mobil spindle oil (Velocite #5) worked great on my rotors.

Bruce, out of curiosity, I googled for this. I don't see a #5?

--Andy in OKC

[BGuttman]

Maybe it's #10. It's the lightest one of the series.

[afugate]

Thank you, Bruce!

--Andy in OKC

[greenbean]

Speaking of snake oil... Bert Herrick used to have little jars of slide cream looked and felt similar to Ponds Cold Cream. Well that's because it was! His wife worked for Ponds out in the San Fernando Valley she used to bring Ponds home in 5 gallon bucket and Bert would put into the little jars and resell it, just sayin..........

^^ This is hilarious!

I have a little jar of that stuff.! I will have to try it...

Well, I just dug up my jar of Burt Herrick slide cream. On the jar, he calls it "The original tested and approved cold cream formula." Yup, it sure smells like Ponds Cold Cream! It is 2/3 gone and definitely dried out a bit. It is thicker than it should be.

I tried it on a (nickel) slide that is aligned well but has some scratchiness. Works like a charm! I used the tiniest amount, so I probably have a 5-year supply.

[BillO]

CLP sometimes is designed to become a dry film that still acts as a lube on a weapon.

That makes sense. You don't want a lube that attracts/holds water/dust in your firearm.

[TromboneFox]

Pond's cream is great, Yamaha's is great. But sometimes (esp on older horns) the synthetics can leave crusty buildup/chalky streaks on your slide, so using natural stuff works too. Burt's Bees chapstick will do wonders for your tuning and playing slide alike. So will a mix of olive oil & water. Also, for something that will clean the slide as well as lubricate, plain old water and a soft rag are great. I got by for years with no slide oil ever, just some water and an old bandanna.

[DougHulme]

REKA is good too, I dont think anyone mentioned it.