Remove laquer on '75 King trombone

[DutchGuy]

I have a King 4B produced between 1975 and 1980, according to the serial number.
It's in good shape, but the laquer looks horrible. Completely gone in contact areas, and scratches and spots everywhere.

I'd like to get this instrument to the point where it looks good again, and want to do it myself, mostly. I looked at relaquering or silverplating, but that's more expensive than the horn was in the first place... so that's a no go.

Then I thought about giving it the raw brass finish, and let it become black.
I read some stuff online already about hot water, acetone, brasso and paint stripper, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience with old King trombones, because it turns out that brand and year of production can determine what works and what not...

Let me know if you have some experience with this!

[BGuttman]

King orange lacquer is really difficult to remove. It's an epoxy. Hot water won't work at all. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Aircraft paint stripper. Usually not available to the public. It's a chemical called Methylene Chloride with a couple of added materials to give it more "bite". Really hazardous to use even with good ventilation and NEVER in a closed room.

2. Citristrip. Citristrip is a terpene paint remover. Long soaks in this (days!) can get the lacquer to lift. Not a big problem for hazards in handling.

3. Oven Cleaner (EZ-Off). This is a strong caustic and has been reported to work on King lacquer. Caustic residues can attack the brass turning it black, so you need to keep an eye on it.

4. Mechanical abrasion. A fine wire wheel can scratch off the lacquer and leave a nice scratch finish. If this is what you want.

[chunk]

I reccomend Easy-Off.
After you use it, give it a REALLY good bath, in pretty hot water. Afterward, I like using a home-brew type metal polish, that has salt, vinegar, and flour; maybe other stuff in it. Seems like it helps slow bad things from happening.

[DutchGuy]

Hmm, yes, others have mentioned the tough laquer on old Kings. It seems that I have one of those too.

As for the Easy-Off: in what way is this caustic harmful for the horn? And which one would you recommend?

As for abrasion: I'm not sure i'm comfortable doing that. How would I prevent damaging the brass beneath. I don't mind a scratch finish, but it sounds like it's very easy to mess up.

I was hoping to do it myself, but I guess I'll have to have it done somewhere. No access to aircraft paint remover sadly.

Thanks!

[Schlitz]

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[DutchGuy]

Well, I was going to have it done by a repair shop, but then they told me that the dent that's in there will probably always be visible, and the spots on the slide cannot be repaired easily, while also complaining that the lacquer is tough to remove and because of that they may have to charge extra. So pretty much all the reasons I had to have them do it now aren't there anymore.

So, I'm gonna do it myself!
I found a bottle of stuff that should work. In Dutch is't called 'HG Verf Kracht Afbijter', and it is described as a paint remover that's better than methylene chloride, less toxic/hazardous, not harmful for many surfaces including metal, but can get rid of epoxy lacquer anyway. It should work within 15 minutes and wasn't too expensive. It should arrive tomorrow. I'll keep you up to date.

[DutchGuy]

Well, it worked

Took me about about 3 hours of scrubbing with a steel wool sponge and the paint remover I mentioned earlier, but ALL the lacquer is gone now.
It didn't damage the horn, and I can honestly not tell a difference in sound either. But now my neck turns green while playing haha. It did a little bit before too, but now it's much worse. I ordered a leather specialities kit for that.

And now, how to give it that antique finish?

[TromboneSam]

If you want to give it a patina, you could either just let it happen naturally over a few weeks by not wiping or cleaning the outside, or you could try to speed things up with some hard-boiled eggs. You can watch videos on how to do this with jewelry on youtube, but if you want a patina on the bell, I could recommend boiling maybe 5-6 eggs, mashing them up, and then placing them in a trash bag with the bell. Don't let the eggs touch the bell though. The longer you leave the bell in the bag, the more extreme your patina will be.

I'm not going to recommend the same process with the slide, just because I don't know how it would affect the inside of the slide.

If you end up not liking the patina, you can just use some very light brass polish that's non-abrasive, and take it back to being shiny.

[DutchGuy]

I did it with ammonia vapor. Worked within a few hours and looks quite nice.
I kept the tuning slide in bright brass, as well as the inside of the bell and the rim of the bell on the other side.
I didn't dare doing it with the slide because I'm afraid it'll do something to the inside. I'll just let that one happen naturally

Pictures added as attachment (I hope?)

[TromboneSam]

Nice job!

[DutchGuy]

Thanks!

The Leather specialities Hand and neck guard set that I ordere arrived as well.
It was quite a challenge to fit it over the grip though... The left-hand piece happens to fit perfectly upside down, covering the whole area until the lock.

[Harpcat]

Horn looks great! Where did you buy the stripper?
Thanks!

[Jmac]

I did it with ammonia vapor. Worked within a few hours and looks quite nice.
I kept the tuning slide in bright brass, as well as the inside of the bell and the rim of the bell on the other side.
I didn't dare doing it with the slide because I'm afraid it'll do something to the inside. I'll just let that one happen naturally

Pictures added as attachment (I hope?)

That looks great. I might try that myself. you used ammonia vapor? How does that work?

[doctortrombone]

I've used ammonia vapor in the past. I was finishing a 100 year-old Besson compensating euphonium, because I had done some work on one of the branches and they were shinier than the rest of the horn. I used a garbage can made of plastic, with a tight-fitting lid. I put the ammonia in a glass container with plastic wrap over the top, and heated it in the microwave. I then put the glass container of ammonia in the bottom of the garbage can, put the euphonium in the garbage can with the ammonia, and sealed the top. After about 30 minutes, the bright sections of the horn and turned a nice dark green that matched the 100 year old patina the rest of the horn.

[DutchGuy]

@ Harpcat: At the local hardware store. It is made by HG, a european brand. In Dutch it's called 'Verf Kracht Afbijter' (Paint Power stripper?)

@ Jmac: I have some buckets with a grate on the bottom (For car cleaning. So the sand will fall through the grate, but the cloth doesn't get to the sand). I took a bottle of kitchen cleaning ammonia (about 5% I guess?), emptied it into the bucket, and put the bell into the bucket. Then I put another bucket over it to close it. Then I wrapped some plastic around it to seal it, and left it there. That's it.

[Harpcat]

I removed the lacquer from my 1965 King 3B yesterday. It was sunny and hot here in Indiana so I left the bell out in the drive to heat up while I ate lunch. I sprayed on the Easy Off and the lacquer lifted and wiped off immediately, easily and completely. I rinsed it really well with water and then polished it with metal polish. Looks great for a 54 year old horn that has had a pretty hard life. I was shocked by how easy and quick the removal was. Pretty sure the heat made a difference and the Easy Off was on the horn long enough to damage anything.

[Briande]

Any recollection on which version of Easy Off? Standard yellow aerosol can?

[jorymil]

Any recollection on which version of Easy Off? Standard yellow aerosol can?

Hey there Briande,

Yes - you definitely want the yellow can. And I can't stress this enough: have good ventilation. If you can't do it outdoors, do it in some remote corner of your house with the windows open. Wear gloves, and if you have a respirator, wear that as well.

The vapor is not something you want to be breathing in. I did mine in the bathroom during the summer, with the windows open, and I still didn't want to go back in there a couple hours later. Are you doing your 2B or 3B+?

John

[Briande]

Thank you. I’ll probably wait until spring and do it outside. Actually going to do the bell only (not attachment tubing etc. ) of my Duo Gravis. It’s in really rough shape. I’ve seen video taping off and wrapping in plastic areas you don’t want to strip. One more question for you: you didn’t let it sit at all? Just spray on and wipe/rinse off?