Switching from small bore to large bore

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:01 pm

Any tips out there on making this transition, please?

Endurance is down and flexibility is off a little too.

Thanks

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:05 pm

As A friend of mine likes to say, we are creature of habit. You need not only to practice both instruments, but you need to practice the switch regularly, possibly every day. You just need to learn to adapt quicker to the different mouthpiece, resistance and instrument.

ttf_edlover123 · Post by **ttf_edlover123** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:06 pm

Thank you for that...

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:10 pm

I am a trumpet player who used to double on all kind of trumpet-like instruments including cornet and piccolo trumpet. Now I learn to double on trombone. Different sized mouthpiece is not a problem as long as you don't neglect practising on both instruments and you practice the switch. If you do it in the order you are supposed to do it on the gig, it will be even better. All of this applies if you really got well together your chops and you don't have any particular basic issues with your playing in general.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:29 pm

The large bore requires more air and a larger embouchure. Also, if you are playing the small bore with a mouthpiece like a 12C, the larger mouthpiece needs to be acclimated to.

Work on long tones and getting enough air to fill the horn. Do rangebuilding exercises to get the upper register back.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:34 am

BG,

I thought that these were normal things to do (granted, natural). But may be not so. Good thing to mention these basic stuff.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:36 am

Quote from: bonenick on Dec 21, 2016, 01:34AMBG,

I thought that these were normal things to do (granted, natural). But may be not so. Good thing to mention these basic stuff.

The problem I see with kids is that either their teacher, the BD, or the parents upgrade them from the .500" bore student horn to a nice large bore with F. Problem is the kid has been playing with a 12C mouthpiece and this one comes with a 6 1/2 AL. The kid tries to blow it like the student horn and awful things happen. It's like somebody set them back a couple of years.

I don't think the trumpet players have as big a problem. The difference between a "jazz bore" trumpet and a "symphonic bore" trumpet is relatively small.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:46 am

You are right about trumpets...but now I am into switching to small trombone as well, that's a big difference. If anything can be similar with trumpets, it is probably switching between B flat trumpets and high pitched trumpets (E flat, F, or piccolo).

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:52 am

Small trombone requires less air and more finesse. I'd bet the Eb and piccolo trumpets do as well. Not to mention cornets.

We like to start kids on 12.7 mm (0.500") trombones because they are relatively easy to play. But if you are used to a larger bore instrument the 12.7 really feels restrictive.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:33 am

To cut the long story short, if you need to play different instruments, you need to put the time and effort in both. You can just pick up the horn and play it. I would listen BGuttman and adjust breathing and embouchure accordingly. For me this is not something that I need to explain it, seems natural to do it. But for someone without experience, needs to be directed to do the transition smoothly. Better with an experiensed tutor. Some flaws may be expected while you try to adapt to the new instrument. During those time don't reduce the time you spent on your first instrument (unless you wont to quit on it), so you don't need to do extra efforts afterwards to get your shape back on this instrumenet (in OP's case, small bore trombone).

ttf_Jhereg · Post by **ttf_Jhereg** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:05 pm

Um. Not sure if you are asking about switching to JUST large bore? Or did you want to continue playing both horn sizes? I think that would make a difference in your approach.

If you are going to stop playing small bore period and switch to large:

- The best way to do it is to up and do it

. Stop playing the small bore until you get a handle on the larger horn. From personal experience, it will not be difficult to return to a small bore in the future if you choose to do so.

- As BGuttman says, you need more air and an embouchure adjustment when moving to a large horn. Until you get the hang of pushing more air through the horn, endurance will suffer. Until you learn to adjust to the partials and range challenges of a larger horn, flexibility will suffer. This is normal and temporary as you learn your way around. Persistence will get you past it.

- Listen to recordings of large bore trombones to get an idea of what you want to sound like. Work to emulate that.

- Play some of the things you've enjoyed playing on the small bore. Feel and hear the difference. Don't let the difference bother you or frustrate you. It will take time to get the sound and the range that you want.

In addition to the above, if you want to continue playing both small and large bore horns:

- As bonenick said, spend time on both every time you practice. At least equal time on both, and extra time on the larger if you need it. I'd suggest playing the same scales/patterns on both horns every time you play them. Doing this will show you differences, and adjustments that you'll need to make to sound good on both instruments.

Overall, be patient. It's a big adjustment and doesn't (usually) happen quickly or overnight. I learned bass trombone in college and was very frustrated, hated the bass for almost a year. In the second year, after really buckling down and spending quality time on the bass, I finally got the hang of it to the point where I was able to gig with it.

Sorry for the long answer, unless it helps! Good luck!

ttf_ISAB · Post by **ttf_ISAB** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:20 am

I just made the switch recently too

I'm working on building up more air and creating a full sound

It will feel much harder creating that sound on large bore than on small bore

The bigger mouthpiece will take some time getting used to (if you also got a new sized mouthpiece)

And just as the others have said, keep practicing on your small bore instrument, don't just give up on it!

Hope this helps and good luck!

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:32 am

No idea if this will help or not in your situation. But I'm including this because it has helped *some* of the kids I work with to make the transition. And, to help improve their overall sound. This comes from the ideas of trumpet teacher, Bill Adam. The idea on trumpet is to practice playing the lead pipe by removing the main tuning slide.

On trombone, I take the outer slide off the assembled horn. (And have the student place it someplace safe and secure!) Then I have them form their embouchure and blow through the horn. The note that should sound is roughly a

flat. Once they can sound this pitch, I have them increase the airflow until they can feel the horn start to vibrate in their left hand. It's that point at which the resonance of the horn is engaged.

And then we put the slide back on the horn and attempt to use the same kind of airflow. Often it takes a few tries for them to get the feel down, but when they do it changes their sound remarkably.

I mention this because it also changes their endurance on the horn. I believe (but do not know this from a factual / scientific perspective) this is because they are no longer producing the sound with just their lips. The horn is reinforcing and strengthening the sound and it just takes less embouchure effort.

--Andy in OKC

ttf_Stanley Accrington · Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:17 pm

I've switched from small bore to larger bore recently.....but think that I've made the change too early. Why.....because I had only been playing the small bore bone with a 12c mouthpiece for about 3 months when I had a chance to buy a used Bb/F bone. The small shanked 12c didn't fit the larger bore bones leadpipe, so I've ended up using a 5g mouthpiece on it. Low and mid range notes sound ok but the higher end is a disaster! I'm playing as a transposing Bb instrument in treble clef (british brass band) and the highest note that i can pitch is D on fourth line on treble stave. Can occasionally reach F on top line of stave if I move stepwise to reach it. Notes that I could play easier on the smallbore with the 12c mouthpiece!!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:28 pm

You are clearly using a mouthpiece that is too big for your current embouchure, There are large bore versions of smaller mouthpieces. I'd suggest a Yamaha 47, Wick 9BL, or maybe a Bach 6.5 AL.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:42 pm

I think it's more a matter of time. None of that is unreasonable for someone who has only been playing for a few months.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:43 pm

With a little patience and time it will go ok. You don't have to change that much, you get used to it with a little time. I changed from small bore to bass trombone when I was 17. It went ok, didn't change much. It's still a trombone.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:43 pm

With a little patience and time it will go ok. You don't have to change that much, you get used to it with a little time. I changed from small bore to bass trombone when I was 17. It went ok, didn't change much. It's still a trombone.

Leif