TromboneChat

Hey TCers,

Would someone post a picture of the stock Bach LW outer slide with the 'no oversleeves' thing going on? I want to make sure I understand this design.

Matt K Edit: Fixed image tags

Sorry, can't seem to make pics work even though they show in preview. Must be like a Brother printer menu...

What is the cosmetic difference between a lightweight slide and a standard one?

ranttila wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:58 am What is the cosmetic difference between a lightweight slide and a standard one?

It's more than a cosmetic difference: Bach actually makes their lightweight slides pretty different than their regular weight. LW ones have nickel outer tubes, a nickel crook, but no oversleeves. A regular weight ones has over sleeves but the rest is yellow brass.

Thanks for posting, Baileyman. I was under the impression that the oversleeves (as I understand it, the bit of the outer tubes "before" the hand grip) are more or less missing on Bach lightweight slides. But your picture has the oversleeves. Interesting.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:52 am Thanks for posting, Baileyman. I was under the impression that the oversleeves (as I understand it, the bit of the outer tubes "before" the hand grip) are more or less missing on Bach lightweight slides. But your picture has the oversleeves. Interesting.

Well, no, they are shortened to essentially trim rings that provide strength to the end of the tube. The actual oversleeves are several inches long and extend well beyond the brace.

Cheers,
Andy

Edit: Hey! I was able to reproduce the image problem. I'll see if I can fix that. I'll just make subsequent posts in the mean time.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:52 am Thanks for posting, Baileyman. I was under the impression that the oversleeves (as I understand it, the bit of the outer tubes "before" the hand grip) are more or less missing on Bach lightweight slides. But your picture has the oversleeves. Interesting.

I don't know what that part is called but Andy is correct. This is a 'regular weight' 42 with a prominent oversleeve:

This is a 42LW slide thus it is in nickel and lacks the oversleeve (this one is paired with an Edwards bell):

Then there's something that's sort of in the middle, where there is just more material drawn for the upper portions of the outer tube than the lower portions. There are a number of Yamaha trombones like this, including the 354. This is a 620 that has such build-in oversleeves:

I see. That makes the name make a lot more sense. Oversleeves never made much sense to me for what I was thinking.

Still, am I wrong in thinking that I've seen more than one lightweight slide with the outer tubes shortened quite a lot, removing a lot of material in the process? I swear I've seen slides where the outers extend maybe .5" past the hand brace and done.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:27 am I see. That makes the name make a lot more sense. Oversleeves never made much sense to me for what I was thinking.

Still, am I wrong in thinking that I've seen more than one lightweight slide with the outer tubes shortened quite a lot, removing a lot of material in the process? I swear I've seen slides where the outers extend maybe .5" past the hand brace and done.

Possibly, but it's possible you're conflating other observations you've made. Generally the lower outer sleeve is longer than the upper outer sleeve (otherwise your hand would make contact with both the oversleeve and the outer slide and might be annoying).

You've possibly also seen some aftermarket modifications. I had that done to one horn, where the sleeves were removed. The tech then cut them to be a lot shorter and reattached them at the top (so that it wouldn't cut the felt pads). I had another tech try that and they ended up destroying the outer slide in the process, so like certain other mods in that area, it can go wrong. I don't know if I've ever seen a 'factory' horn with oversleeves as described but it's certainly possible that they exist.

This picture of a Conn 6H from the Conn Loyalist shows equal length oversleeves:

I can't find relevant photos, but I had a Bach 50B with a lightweight slide. It had no oversleeve at all - just a little lip at the very edge. I have seen other lightweight slides with oversleeves about 1/2 inch long. I assume most of those are custom sleeves after a tech removed the regular oversleeves. Also, I owned a Conn 4762 slide that had factory 1/2-inch oversleeves. The slide was not a lightweight nickel silver slide - it was regular brass.

The short rings on LT slides are NOT considered "oversleeves", at least not in MY book. They are simply ferrules to reinforce the ends of the outer tubes.
Some makers draw these "oversleeves" into the top end of the outers by increasing the size of the die the tubes are drawn through, similar to making the stockings on the bottom of the inner tubes. This eliminates the need to manufacture a separate tube.
Adjusting the length of these sleeves can affect how the horn plays, in the same way adding or completely removing them will. Removing them from a regular weight, brass outer slide makes it a "medium" weight slide. I made my new outer slide this way. No sleeves save a 1/2" ferrule at the top. Reduces the weight slightly, and "brightens" the sound of my horn a tad...
In actuality, the "lightweight" slides REALLY aren't significantly lighter weight than the standard slide, but do have a more present sound and easier articulations due to the more brittle nature of the nickel parts. There was a post a LONG time ago, over "there" in which someone weighed each slide, and there was only a few grams difference.


Eric

I have a couple custom lightenings, too, and done different ways. And a custom build from new parts that is also different. These would be interesting I suppose, but the question is about the factory slides. Two of my pics did not make it through the leetle wires, one of which is a factory MV9, and it's different than the typical 16M.

Is the the weight of the slide tubes reduced, by making them thinner as well?

Pre59 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:56 am Is the the weight the slide tubes reduced, by making them thinner as well?

Some makers do that for sure, but I'm not sure about Bach.

Pre59 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:56 am Is the the weight of the slide tubes reduced, by making them thinner as well?

Usually no. Bach is an exception, sort of, because their lightweight slides are made out of nickel instead of yellow brass. So different material, no oversleeves, different crooks... so they are lighter for several reasons. Most of the custom manufacturers will offer oversleeves if you really want them but I think I've only seen maybe one Shires slide setup in such a configuration. But you can get, for example, a Shires B62LW or B62NLW (lightweight vs. nickel lightweight) whereas that isn't a stock option on Bach horns.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:55 am

Pre59 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:56 am Is the the weight of the slide tubes reduced, by making them thinner as well?

Usually no. Bach is an exception, sort of, because their lightweight slides are made out of nickel instead of yellow brass. ...

My factory light MV9 has gold brass tubes, yellow crook, nickel silver fittings. Fetching.

I have a pair of K+H small bores horns. One has a (very) heavy nickel outer, with no attempts to reduce the weight as far as I can see, and the other with a rose brass slide with the fixtures that you'd expect to see on a lightweight slide.
They play very differently, I like them both, but I choose to play the heavy one more often than not.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:47 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:55 am Usually no. Bach is an exception, sort of, because their lightweight slides are made out of nickel instead of yellow brass. ...

My factory light MV9 has gold brass tubes, yellow crook, nickel silver fittings. Fetching.

Sorry, meant current production. I'm not aware of any exceptions to that rule for anything you can currently buy although perhaps the artisan series are different? I didn't think of those.

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:14 pmThere was a post a LONG time ago, over "there" in which someone weighed each slide, and there was only a few grams difference.

This is something we should probably try to recreate...

I have a 6H that has had the over sleeves removed. They kept about 1/2" of the sleeve to put on the end of the outer slide. If you look at the picture, you can see the difference in the color of the brass & lacquer where the sleeve was removed. Lightened the outer quite a bit.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:41 am Then there's something that's sort of in the middle, where there is just more material drawn for the upper portions of the outer tube than the lower portions. There are a number of Yamaha trombones like this, including the 354. This is a 620 that has such build-in oversleeves:

Double drawn slides. The outer is one piece, with the top 5 or 6 inches thicker than the rest of the slide. YSL 354 is like that. So are newer King slides. Really old King slides had over sleeves. It’s thicker than a Bach lightweight slide, but not as thick as a slide with over sleeves.