TromboneChat

I know this is a pretty vague vague question, but I want to do music as a career, but I don't want to deal with financial problems. Currently in 11th grade, I got 1st chair in all-state, but I don't feel that I could be good enough for a career in music. Anyone that does music as a career, how good were you in 11th grade? The people in all-state weren't as good as I expected, maybe it's just the state I'm from.

Didn't Lindbergh only start around age 16?

I don't think there is a definite answer. It all comes down to commitment and desire.

Albert Mangelsdorff didn't start to play trombone until he was 21.

Two things that all successful musicians do is to learn readily and to persevere. Do those two things really well and you can succeed in music. You don't need to be a prodigy.

Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 08:06AMI know this is a pretty vague vague question, but I want to do music as a career, but I don't want to deal with financial problems.

Most musicians deal with financial problems at times during their career.

Christian Linderg was a good example for a lot of reasons. He has probably made more money than any other trombonist, but from the time he left his orchestra job at 19 to be a soloist he took five years to study, get a music degree, and practice. Since he studied in London and California, he was way in the hole financially. Then he began performing recitals and as a soloist with orchestras, and he claims he didn't net money until his fifth year.

So, at 19, he was probably better than I will ever be and that was BEFORE he began his serious and dedicated 5 year studies.

I have a pretty low level, low key career in music that does pay well, but is not at all prestigious or noteworthy. In 11th grade I was performing Blue Bells of Scotland with my local high school band and community bands, and was being offered a scholarship to play in the UMass band out of the blue. That level of ability and NO interest in a music career landed me with a good paying job as a trombonist sort of by accident. Now I wouldn't change jobs for anything.

I'm not doing music as a career, so take this all with a few grains of salt. But some observations/ things to think about:

Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 08:06AM...I got 1st chair in all-state, but I don't feel that I could be good enough for a career in music.
A lot of the really good musicians I know have low confidence. I'd never guess until we start chatting over beers. I think, for a lot of 'em, it might be what drives them to feel like they're never good enough, and drives them to constantly strive to improve themselves, drives them to be as great as they can be. Feeling like you're not good enough (right now) might just be on par for the course.


Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 08:06AMThe people in all-state weren't as good as I expected, maybe it's just the state I'm from.
Don't know where you're from, but in my experience, talent (musical and otherwise) in urban areas tends to be higher/more competitive than talent in rural areas.

Consider applying to nationwide summer music things (retreats, camps, NYO, that sort of thing) to see what high-calibre musicians from other states sound like.

Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 08:06AM...I want to do music as a career...


Tell us  more about what you envision a career in music to be.

Go to college and then join an orchestra or philharmonic. Other than that, not sure where or what college. The all-state I was in was Minnesota. I'm not sure what good schools are near me got music, and in not sure if I will have to relocate either. I just like music and the life of a good musician seems good. Also I seem to pick things up pretty quickly. I didn't start caring about band until 9th grade. I usually practice 1 a week unlesd I have something big coming up. Of course I would start practicing everyday but I feel that I have the potential, but still worried, as so many people around the country try out for these bands, just wanted to scope my competition.

Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 08:06AMI know this is a pretty vague vague question, but I want to do music as a career, but I don't want to deal with financial problems. Currently in 11th grade, I got 1st chair in all-state, but I don't feel that I could be good enough for a career in music. Anyone that does music as a career, how good were you in 11th grade? The people in all-state weren't as good as I expected, maybe it's just the state I'm from.

As a general rule...and the exceptions above serve to prove this rule...I believe that you should be consistently in the upper echelon of players in every level through which you pass on the way to a professional career. You got 1st chair in All-State in 11th grade? You're fine so far. Next level? College, probably. Choose a good school (in an area that has a great deal of professional activity if possible), and gauge yourself according to your competition. If by the end of your first year you aren't among the best players in that class, either redouble your efforts the next year and/or begin thinking about some sort of safety net. If after two years you are still stuck in the middle tier? It's probably time to face facts.

If you have done 4 years (or more) in school and remained among the better players, then it's on to the next biggest pond. Same same there. Each move takes longer to shake out. If you feel you have the ability and perseverance/work ethic to make it as a pro, keep plugging. Smaller city? Larger city? Wherever. If by 30 or so you are not playing on a totally acceptable professional level...not that you have to be working your butt off because sometimes it takes a while to get really noticed...but if by then you feel totally outclassed by your competition, then it's time to take another look. A serious one.

I write this as a longtime NYC freelancer. Not only did I go through this general course; I have watched countless other do the same general thing here in NYC. The ones who could really play and were willing to make the necessary sacrifices to actually be a working pro are my colleagues. Others equally talented decided the dues were too high and either went to smaller cities and/or concentrated on teaching, as did many people who simply couldn't quite make the grade. No shame in that...it's a hard life, really.

Good luck...it's usually a long, hard road. You need to remeber...you;re only as good as your last note. For real.

Later...

S.

I had a chance recently to reminisce with a lifetime pro. It was great to hear a fresh perspective on the 70s and 80s. At that time, I studied at the Royal Conservatory here with a rather frustrated professional who just couldn't break into the top symphony ranks. He left playing in mid-life to do something else. According to my friend, he just wasn't good enough.

Another relevant story was involved a top pro jazz band that visited a local high school. The teacher at the school asked/ recommended/ insisted that this 15 year old should sit in with them. They agreed not knowing what to expect. At a break, the pros went outside and discussed "killing" the kid because he was that good. He is still a top player 40 years later.

If you are good enough to make pros jealous, then there is definitely a life for you in music. There are many talented people that see music as a lifelong hobby that brings real satisfaction, but they earn their living in another field. And then there is the middle ground...

the only thing that matters is how hard you work from here on out.

Quote from: Exzaclee on Oct 15, 2016, 02:33PMthe only thing that matters is how hard you work from here on out.

Much wisdom in the above words.

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Oct 15, 2016, 02:41PMMuch wisdom in the above words.

Hard work is important, but it really says nothing. Hard work will get you further in life and in anything. You need more than hard work to succeed. I have watched talented people fail miserably by working only on playing (or other) skills and ignoring other aspects.

Consider the following: be helpful, be friendly, be memorable, be open to new ideas, and other things that will win you help to find work, win auditions, and success. To paraphrase Peter Drucker: "players do things right and leaders do the right things."

For example, the most successful trombonist I know personally not only plays at the highest level, but he never forgets anyone's name. It's an impressive talent, and one he works on.

I'm not sure. I have seen young amazing players develop very quick, and then fall off very quick. I have seen people develop late in their youth and do it fast. It depends. I think everyone is different, a good teacher can see each individual.

Leif

Hi. I studied and graduated and commenced pro playing at 21years old. I was playing a gig and the man sitting next to me said, I wont be here on Saturday night I'll have send a dep. When I asked him why he said he had an ice cream stall at the greyhound racing track and could make as much on a Saturday night selling ice cream as he did for a whole week of playing. That got me thinking that you have to audition for the job and be at the top of your game to hold it and he makes more money selling ice cream. I quit professional music got a business of my own and just did casual gigs. You have to be really dedicated to remain a professional and I think that I liked music too much to remain a professional and the relief of not having the stress of putting food on the table for your family is unbelievable. A couple of off days and there is always some one ready to jump into your place. Don't let me put you off, just think about it and go for it. Max

Quote from: Torobone on Oct 15, 2016, 03:49PMHard work is important, but it really says nothing.

It says nothing? It says everything.

This is a trombone student. Without hard work there is virtually no future for a player of this instrument. Yes, there are always other factors that go into being able to do this. I don't think I suggested otherwise. I have been making my living doing this for two and a half decades. I know what it takes. Hard work trumps all your other concerns. Period.

Quote from: Torobone on Oct 15, 2016, 03:49PMConsider the following: be helpful, be friendly, be memorable, be open to new ideas, and other things that will win you help to find work, win auditions, and success. To paraphrase Peter Drucker: "players do things right and leaders do the right things."

For example, the most successful trombonist I know personally not only plays at the highest level, but he never forgets anyone's name. It's an impressive talent, and one he works on.

All great points, but none of those factors are going to make up for hard work. You can be the nicest guy in the world, but if you haven't done your homework you're not going to get the gig.

But at a professional level, isn't everyone talented and hasn't nearly everyone worked hard?

Quote from: Ellrod on Oct 15, 2016, 08:26PMBut at a professional level, isn't everyone talented and hasn't nearly everyone worked hard?

Yup... so you have to do it to get in. The other stuff is great, too.

Musicians with financial problems? I've never heard of them 

Seriously, you'll need to be REALLY good with your money to avoid any financial problems. That generally means living WELL below your means - think 20 - 30% below what you make, in order to make sure that those months that you don't make much, it's there in the bank waiting for you.

As for how good do you have to be - well, the best you can be at any point. Right now, it's about hard work - learning your craft, getting better as a musician, and prepping for college. Sabutin is right that you should aim for a school in an area with a busy scene. I recommend the same for a reason he doesn't bring up - often, the cheaper schools there still have great schools of music and top notch faculty, but far less tuition costs. You want to graduate with as little college debt as possible, because the greater amount of debt you carry, the more you have to make just to pay your bills.

You will also want to endeavor to learn what schools have the most musicians making a living in the area you see yourself focusing. It makes things easier if there is a built in support network you can tap into to jump start your career - it's not mandatory, but it can help speed up the process, as long as you have done everything else you need to.

While in college, network with busy players, and try to learn the BUSINESS of making music for a living. And, yes, it's a business, with a set of skills that is rarely, if ever, taught in colleges. You'll still be focused on developing your abilities, but if you want to get paid, and do it full time, those skills are necessary.

The other things to start thinking about now are as follows:

1. What area of music do you want to focus on (mainly classical or jazz, as that's the popular split in colleges)? - This affects what schools to look at and audition for
2. What kind of financial support do you have now, and for the early part of your career? - This affects if you are staying closer to home so you can move back in with your parents if needed, or if they are willing to help with rent. It also affects help with equipment purchases that might open doors in the early stages of your career. If you have support early on, you can remain more focused on playing, and less on finding a part time job to help pay the bills, which will speed up your career development.
3. What WON'T you do gig-wise? - If you know what you are absolutely against playing, you can research and talk to pros to see if that's realistic. If it's not, you should consider another career and play for fun

Right now, it's about working hard. If you are already working hard, work harder. Trust me - it will be worth it if this is what you want to do.

And, lastly, if you aren't working with a private teacher, start. If there isn't a busy pro offering lessons in your area, find the closest one that is, and take with them, even if it means once a month lessons and driving a couple hours each way.

Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 10:25AMGo to college and then join an orchestra or philharmonic.
It's obviously not that simple, and there are many other paths to being a professional musician. The full-time orchestra seems like it would be the most secure way, but it's actually not unless you are at the very top of the profession and can get a job not only in one of the 15 or 20 greatest orchestras in the world, but in one of the few that have truly secure financial footing. Here in the US, that's probably about 5 orchestras.

But it's not all that dark a picture. It's really not. There is excellent employment to be had in the military music organizations, as a university teacher, and even as a freelancer like me who puts it together with multiple part-time orchestras, a network of people who hire me as a substitute or on a purely freelance basis, and university teaching. It took almost twenty years to get to where my only day job was teaching, but it happened. I could probably have done it earlier if I had taught younger students, but it's not my strength. In an odd way, my cobbled-together income is more secure than that of some of my friends in full-time orchestras in smaller cities.

QuoteOther than that, not sure where or what college. The all-state I was in was Minnesota. I'm not sure what good schools are near me got music, and in not sure if I will have to relocate either.
Some of the best musicians I know are from Minnesota, and the orchestra is world class. Doug Wright, the principal trombone, is an old friend who went to school in Boston just before I did, and he's an amazing musician. The University of Minnesota is a great school with a great trombone teacher in Tom Ashworth. I also have a close friend who teaches at Concordia in Moorhead named Nat Dickey. He's great, and Concordia has a good program. UW Whitewater also has an excellent teacher.

QuoteI usually practice 1 a week unlesd I have something big coming up. Of course I would start practicing everyday but I feel that I have the potential, but still worried, as so many people around the country try out for these bands, just wanted to scope my competition.

First of all, start practicing every day and taking a lesson every week with the best teacher you can afford. You clearly have some talent, so you should see improvement quickly with good guidance.

Secondly, don't worry about the competition. I'm serious. You can't control how anybody else plays or what anybody else thinks, and it's not worth your energy to worry about either. You can only control how YOU play and what YOU think. Listen to a lot of great music played by trombonists, and listen a lot more great music played by non-trombonists. Imagine how beautiful the music you are playing can sound and practice every day trying to match what comes out your bell with what you can imagine. If you devote yourself to music you will do that every day for the rest of your life. The journey is the goal.

If you have a good teacher, you will get good advice about what schools to target. Some of the players who have professional success travel far to go to the top conservatories; others go to a good university in their home states for undergrad studies and then look elsewhere. There is no one path to success.

I teach at Boston University, where we have motivated, ambitious students from all over the country and the world. I also teach at a marvelous summer music camp for high school students called Kinhaven in southern VT. We had a horn player there this past summer from Edina, MN...she sounded great when she got there and even better when she left. If you have any more specific questions about the process or about the possibilities open to you that will help you further your goal of being a professional musician - or even help you make the decision whether or not that's something you really want - please feel free to email me at the link to the left.

Oh, also, I didn't take trombone really seriously until I was about to go to college. I had other good musical training besides trombone, and that helped a lot for sure once I decided where I wanted to focus my energies.

As to financial problems...welcome to the world. Any professional field you want to go into will probably require you to take out student loans unless you have the support of a wealthy family. Some pay better than others, but it's realyl just a matter of scale.

Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 10:25AMGo to college and then join an orchestra or philharmonic.

Orchestral jobs are exceedingly difficult to get even among the non-stable ensembles that Gabe referred to.

Consider that there are probably only 3 or 4 openings per year for trombones in the US but probably at least 100+ very competent trombones graduating from colleges and conservatories each year who would like to audition for one of them, in addition to the hundreds of competent players who have graduated in previous years and in addition to the already employed players who would want to move up from a lesser orchestra.

Just saying that it is a matter of working hard to be successful does not accurately describe the problem.

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Oct 16, 2016, 03:42PMIt's obviously not that simple, and there are many other paths to being a professional musician. The full-time orchestra seems like it would be the most secure way, but it's actually not unless you are at the very top of the profession and can get a job not only in one of the 15 or 20 greatest orchestras in the world, but in one of the few that have truly secure financial footing. Here in the US, that's probably about 5 orchestras.

But it's not all that dark a picture. It's really not. There is excellent employment to be had in the military music organizations, as a university teacher, and even as a freelancer like me who puts it together with multiple part-time orchestras, a network of people who hire me as a substitute or on a purely freelance basis, and university teaching. It took almost twenty years to get to where my only day job was teaching, but it happened. I could probably have done it earlier if I had taught younger students, but it's not my strength. In an odd way, my cobbled-together income is more secure than that of some of my friends in full-time orchestras in smaller cities.

Some of the best musicians I know are from Minnesota, and the orchestra is world class. Doug Wright, the principal trombone, is an old friend who went to school in Boston just before I did, and he's an amazing musician. The University of Minnesota is a great school with a great trombone teacher in Tom Ashworth. I also have a close friend who teaches at Concordia in Moorhead named Nat Dickey. He's great, and Concordia has a good program. UW Whitewater also has an excellent teacher.

First of all, start practicing every day and taking a lesson every week with the best teacher you can afford. You clearly have some talent, so you should see improvement quickly with good guidance.

Secondly, don't worry about the competition. I'm serious. You can't control how anybody else plays or what anybody else thinks, and it's not worth your energy to worry about either. You can only control how YOU play and what YOU think. Listen to a lot of great music played by trombonists, and listen a lot more great music played by non-trombonists. Imagine how beautiful the music you are playing can sound and practice every day trying to match what comes out your bell with what you can imagine. If you devote yourself to music you will do that every day for the rest of your life. The journey is the goal.

If you have a good teacher, you will get good advice about what schools to target. Some of the players who have professional success travel far to go to the top conservatories; others go to a good university in their home states for undergrad studies and then look elsewhere. There is no one path to success.

I teach at Boston University, where we have motivated, ambitious students from all over the country and the world. I also teach at a marvelous summer music camp for high school students called Kinhaven in southern VT. We had a horn player there this past summer from Edina, MN...she sounded great when she got there and even better when she left. If you have any more specific questions about the process or about the possibilities open to you that will help you further your goal of being a professional musician - or even help you make the decision whether or not that's something you really want - please feel free to email me at the link to the left.

I'm from MN, so I might be able to help recommend a teacher, or at least put you in touch with pros in the Twin Cities who can then help you find someone if they aren't teaching anymore (I've been in the NYC area for 15 years now). Are you near the Twin Cities, or are you willing to go down there? That's where the majority are concentrated.

As for great schools, Gabe has it licked for MN schools that I'm aware of. I'm certain there have to be others, but without researching I couldn't speak to the faculty (as I don't know who's on faculty out there anymore). Going outside of MN and Wisconsin, there are even more great options - it just matters how far you are willing to travel. And, as he says - there is no one path. Again, though, I would highly recommend avoiding debt as much as possible - while some is unavoidable for the majority of us, you don't NEED a top conservatory, so long as you are in a good school with a great teacher. If, after graduation, you decide you want to move somewhere else, doing 2 years of grad work in that city will help you meet players, further your studies, and keep costs and debt far more reasonable (I know many players who went that path).

Yeah! That would be great! I live about 15 minutes away from the cities, and I should be getting my license soon.

Also thanks to everyone who has posted, it's nice to see how everyone else did it. While I'm still not sure if this is something I could do, it's definitely a possibility for the future. If not, I'll probably go to med school or nursing school, but I like music more.

I know of a number of medical professionals who play trombone (and other instruments as well).  It can be a great release from the stress of healing people.  On the other side of the coin, a lot of them have sporadic histories of attending rehearsals because of their schedules.

Any other job will probably have a more reliable (and larger) paycheck than professional music.  Love isn't sufficient -- you have to want to play more than you want to eat.

I just PM'd you - you can also reach me at the email in my profile.

Give me a bit of time to get back to you - I'll be off email and computers for at least 3-4 days, possible longer, starting tomorrow.

Quote from: Exzaclee on Oct 15, 2016, 05:50PMIt says nothing? It says everything.



Hard work might still be insufficient, to Sam's point, but the sooner you really apply yourself, the sooner you will know the sort of raw material God gave you, and the sooner your ability itself will dictate whether you have a shot at a performance career.

I was lucky enough to discern relatively early that there was a long list of better players than I, possessing a natural ability that I lack, and equally lucky to have been a good student, and able to see myself enjoying a number of different paths in life.

Work your tail off, and see how far you get!

as other said, work your tail off.....set your sight on being 1st at NY someone has to win the job it could be you, never ever think what if??

You may get there you may follow a different path, as a player do consider the service bands, or you may realise that your path is as a teacher who also gigs...as I said if you have worked as hard as you could and have not been able to do more, thenit is all you can do...there is also a lot of luck involved!

Get lessons with the best teacher you can find....both Ian Bousfield and Helen Vollum (BBC symphony) studied with Denis Wick from age 11 or so!

Peter Moore got the LSO job aged 18 , but his study and lessons had been at conservatoire standard for several years prior to that...so these 3 where 3 or 4 years ahead of their peers before they even auditioned for college!

Do not let anyone stop your dream, but likewise do not whine if you have not put in the hard yards!

Back in my school days, I eventually grew good enough to meet and play second to a guy named Brad. I found out Brad won 1st chair all state every year from 7th grade to 12th. Incredible player. When I got to college, it was rare to find a grad student that played better than he had. Brad went off to a conservatory on a full ride, if I remember right. Burned out in the first year. Next year he was at an in state school, singing the lead role in sweeny todd (I know because my sister directed it), and just doing music for fun while he pursued a different major.

Also in college I met a trumpet player named Josh. Good guy, pretty good trumpet player though not amazing. He worked hard and took trumpet seriously. Continue in grad school, and continued to work hard. Bit by bit he got there. Is now a first trumpet at a respectable symphony and makes a comfortable living playing trumpet.

And then a college mate of mine named Ron. Ron loved trombone but wasn't very good at it. Worked his butt off like few others. Just couldn't get it. After he got his bachelors in music in piano, he went back for another degree in trombone. Still stunk. Now he happily manages a modelling agency.

Life happens.

College is a time to try new things and expand upon old things. Get out in the community gigging. Take masterclasses. Go listen to random live music of great musicians. But also try your hand in new areas. My skill in music readily translated to computers.

You're in 11th grade. Per music, school doesn't matter that much and you can get out and try your hand at gigging and see what you think. At the same time, you have another few years ahead of you before you need to commit to anything too seriously.

Take advantage of it! Go play!

I've never made a living playing (it's always been a side job for me, even in an Army Reserve Band) but I've played with a lot of people who do.  I noticed one thing in your post; your desire for financial security.  I know that all of the pro-musicians I've known have used teaching at some level (from College level, to private Lessons, to Grammar school) to supplement their playing income at some point in their careers. It sounds like you're well on track musically to meet your goals, I would suggest since financial security is a goal of yours you might want to consider a college that will allow you to get a dual major in performance and music education. 

I've never made a living playing (it's always been a side job for me, even in an Army Reserve Band) but I've played with a lot of people who do.  I noticed one thing in your post; your desire for financial security.  I know that all of the pro-musicians I've known have used teaching at some level (from College level, to private Lessons, to Grammar school) to supplement their playing income at some point in their careers. It sounds like you're well on track musically to meet your goals, I would suggest since financial security is a goal of yours you might want to consider a college that will allow you to get a dual major in performance and music education.