TromboneChat

Anybody have a horn converted recently? What was the total cost? Where'd you/your tech source the bell ring?

I got a VERY casual estimate...extremely ballpark...said MAYBE $400-500...I'll be watching this topic.

That sounds pretty close to what I was expecting. Although that also seems to be in line with french horn screwbell pricing, but trombone should be at least a little cheaper because you don't have to disassemble it to do it right from what I understand.

the conversion must alter the playing character dramatically

PhilipEdCarlson wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 6:18 pm the conversion must alter the playing character dramatically

Maybe! Generally it is recommended to do it to an already lighter horn to 'balance' it out so to speak. I don't have a specific horn in mind for this, or even a bell, but I really like some of these spiffy screwbell cases coming out would love the portability.

One of these days I will have a Ralph Sauer bell! Love that thing to death although the amount of classical gigs I get is pretty miniscule compared to the commercial stuff so I'm trying to focus a little in that arena first.

$400 to $500 is accurate.
I've had John Sandhagen do 2 for me, one ring from Shires and one from Instrument Innovations.
The Shires is lighter, and the screw is tighter / a little tougher to get lined up.
The Instrument Innovations is a lot closer to the old Holton screw feel, but it is a bit heavier.
Neither changed the sound or feel of the attack much, the heavier ring did change how much energy comes off the back of the bell a little, kinda threw me off a bit, but didn't really change the sound.
As far as weight of the horn, adding a ring to a heavier horn made less of a difference, none really, adding a ring to a light horn was more of a difference.
Since you're thinking about doing this to an alto, there have been some Pfretzschners hanging around already with a ring.
Or you could start off with a Yamaha 350C, or make your own if you wanted it to sound like a tenor.
Attached is a 350C with a holton bell in a 3/4 viola case, still working on the case.

That's really cool. Yeah the Wessex is one horn I'm considering; also thinking about a 356 I just picked up. Too many cool options these days. What a problem to have!

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 6:00 pm That sounds pretty close to what I was expecting. Although that also seems to be in line with french horn screwbell pricing, but trombone should be at least a little cheaper because you don't have to disassemble it to do it right from what I understand.

I'd love to know how to add a ring to a trombone without disassembling! The stem end of the ring must go on over the stem. So the bell has to come off.

Also, a LOT more horns have screw bells than trombones. To get the ring right where it needed to be on my Benge 190F, McCracken has to machine one from scratch. Same deal for one he's mounting on a Shires bell for another former apprentice.

Even with horns, McCracken finds it necessary to go to great lengths to get exactly the right angles to match at the cut line.

To me, seems like a bargain at $400

I'd love to know how to add a ring to a trombone without disassembling! The stem end of the ring must go on over the stem. So the bell has to come off.

By only adding screwbells to horns you've made or intend to make modular

That's good information. I also have been told by horn players that a non-trivial factor is the saw one uses, but I'm less privy on why that is important!

I've done a few of these for trombone and horn and usually charge around $400 for both. The reason for keeping the price the same is that even though horn bells require a lot more solder joints to undo/redo, the rings are usually easily sourced, whereas finding a ring for a trombone means taking some measurements and doing some trig. If it's a make/model of trombone that I've done before and already know where to get the ring from, then I'll do it for $350.

I also play on a screwbell tenor and absolutely love it! I bought my Shire a little over 2 years ago (Chicago model, but with a 2RVE bell), but had to send it back after a few months for some warranty issues. Yes, as a repairman I could have fixed them myself, but there's also the principle of spending a lot of money on something and wanting it to be right! While it was back at the factory I also had them do the screwbell conversion, as I had been contemplating doing it myself and figured why not have them do it and factory finish it while it was there. And they gave me a great deal, seeing as the horn was back with them for manufacturing issues.

Having played the bell both uncut and cut, I can definitely say I prefer the cut version. The extra weight of the ring on the light bell improved the response and slightly darkened the sound, all while maintaining the original character/sound of the horn. Overall improvement was maybe 2-3% better, but when a horn is already so close to perfect, that's a pretty good! I'd definitely recommend it!

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 12:45 pm $400 to $500 is accurate.
I've had John Sandhagen do 2 for me, one ring from Shires and one from Instrument Innovations.
The Shires is lighter, and the screw is tighter / a little tougher to get lined up.
The Instrument Innovations is a lot closer to the old Holton screw feel, but it is a bit heavier.
Neither changed the sound or feel of the attack much, the heavier ring did change how much energy comes off the back of the bell a little, kinda threw me off a bit, but didn't really change the sound.
As far as weight of the horn, adding a ring to a heavier horn made less of a difference, none really, adding a ring to a light horn was more of a difference.
Since you're thinking about doing this to an alto, there have been some Pfretzschners hanging around already with a ring.
Or you could start off with a Yamaha 350C, or make your own if you wanted it to sound like a tenor.
Attached is a 350C with a holton bell in a 3/4 viola case, still working on the case.

Jim! Great to see you here, and it's been too long, my friend. Love the Bobelock case. Reminds me of my string-playing days.

Though I'm having a difficult time imagining what you're going to do with the slide.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 10:36 am

I'd love to know how to add a ring to a trombone without disassembling! The stem end of the ring must go on over the stem. So the bell has to come off.

By only adding screwbells to horns you've made or intend to make modular

That's good information. I also have been told by horn players that a non-trivial factor is the saw one uses, but I'm less privy on why that is important!

There are jewelers' saws, razor saws, fine dovetail saws, less fine backsaws, and all kinds of hacksaws. Two big differences: finish on the cut, and width of kerf. To take it to an extreme, would you want a 1/8" table saw blade-worth of kerf taken out of your bell? The bell tapers enough near the typical ring location that less is non-linearly better. Think, for instance, of how much the flare changes in the last inch of length. It's not THAT much at the ring location, but still usually past the much more gradual tail taper.

I wish I had added a ring to my tenor back when I had chops. An addition to the nice things mentioned by others in this thread, I find that I can NOT push the horn far enough for it to break up. My chops give up first. And since the horn is not breaking up, the "ripping sheet metal" effect is considerably less.

boneagain wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 6:03 pm And since the horn is not breaking up, the "ripping sheet metal" effect is considerably less.

Bummer. That's the effect I LOVE.

I see! Yes, that does make sense.

And Justin, thanks for your recommendation about the Shires bell. My large bore is a 2RVET7 bell and I've thought about doing it myself... I actually really dig the RS bell too. I'm torn between ultimately buying an RS bell or converting my current one. I don't get enough large bore work to justify either at the moment but man do they play great.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 6:48 pm
Bummer. That's the effect I LOVE.

ROFL

I don't know if it's cool to drop names so I won't, but a very popular NYC tech quoted me at $400. I would have gone for it except you can't really reap the benefits without buying a new case.
Some food for thought: the new Weston Sprott mode Courtois does not have that many changes but I think it plays a lot darker and with more core than the regular 420. I can't say the screw bell is THE reason but it must be part of it.

My guy used a stock French Horn ring. Had 2 conversions done, a Bach 36 and a 42. They play the same to me. Tiny bit heavier to hold.

Speaking of screwbell, Sierman, a Chinese knockoff, just patented screwbells on trombones. Clearly not their invention. Patented a leather strap similar to Get-a-grip and a bridge with female threads similar to Edwards.

Best regards,

Jon

I'd say you're about $1k total with a case.

I bought my 70s Holton flat case on eBay for $50. Some guy had a bunch of dead stock. It was brand new.
You can also go with a gun case for a lot less than the $550 Marcus Bonna cases.
As I said in another thread, the whole flat case scene is in its infancy. Really flat trombone cases should be cheaper than standard cases because they are simpler to manufacture!

I had my Holton TR180 converted to a screwbell done locally here in STL. I believe the total on the conversion was $225. The MB case was $550 from Hornguys. The conversion and case has made traveling with that horn much easier with much less stress on my end from being checked on a plane or even taking up room on an out of town gig.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 4:11 pm

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 12:45 pm $400 to $500 is accurate.
I've had John Sandhagen do 2 for me, one ring from Shires and one from Instrument Innovations.
The Shires is lighter, and the screw is tighter / a little tougher to get lined up.
The Instrument Innovations is a lot closer to the old Holton screw feel, but it is a bit heavier.
Neither changed the sound or feel of the attack much, the heavier ring did change how much energy comes off the back of the bell a little, kinda threw me off a bit, but didn't really change the sound.
As far as weight of the horn, adding a ring to a heavier horn made less of a difference, none really, adding a ring to a light horn was more of a difference.
Since you're thinking about doing this to an alto, there have been some Pfretzschners hanging around already with a ring.
Or you could start off with a Yamaha 350C, or make your own if you wanted it to sound like a tenor.
Attached is a 350C with a holton bell in a 3/4 viola case, still working on the case.

Jim! Great to see you here, and it's been too long, my friend. Love the Bobelock case. Reminds me of my string-playing days.

Though I'm having a difficult time imagining what you're going to do with the slide.

Isn't the slide on the 350C shorter than standard?

If it all fits in that viola case I think converting a 350C might be one of the most brilliant applications yet!

3/4 viola case, to be exact. The slide is just the right size, the bell is kind of tight, and it is ridiculously convenient.

JonTheCadet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:17 pm Speaking of screwbell, Sierman, a Chinese knockoff, just patented screwbells on trombones. Clearly not their invention. Patented a leather strap similar to Get-a-grip and a bridge with female threads similar to Edwards.

Best regards,

Jon

What? Any evidence of this? They really have a nerve, if this is true, considering that all they have done is directly steal ideas from other makers!

M

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:10 pm

JonTheCadet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:17 pm Speaking of screwbell, Sierman, a Chinese knockoff, just patented screwbells on trombones. Clearly not their invention. Patented a leather strap similar to Get-a-grip and a bridge with female threads similar to Edwards.

Best regards,

Jon

What? Any evidence of this? They really have a nerve, if this is true, considering that all they have done is directly steal ideas from other makers!

M

There's a thread on it on Facebook. I can't remember which trombone group it is though. A few people familiar with patent law in China indicated that the paperwork all looks legit. I can't speak to their voracity though.

Yeah that happened. Should get interesting!

Just had John do my tenor maybe 2-3 months ago, shires ring. $200 for parts, $500 total. Bell comes off so that probably helped the cost. Case was more...watched him do it- $500 felt like a bargin given the "only one shot" nature of the job.

Been my daily work horn for a while so I know it well and it feels like it basically plays the same. It felt exactly the same for the first hour, maybe a touch sluggish the second, and totally normal the third. The only difference I think i feel is that it's a little more solid on the 2nd partial than it was precut.

A student of mine has the Sauer/Shires one. Really nice horn, but don't much care for the case (though it does look classy). Really flat, but has no taper so it just feels like it has dead space (it would be nice if the extra space could be used to put things). Has no backpack straps so it doesn't seem so comfortable if you're carrying a lot and makes it harder to hang over the shoulder to discreetly bring on a plane if needs be.

mbarbier wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:08 pm Just had John do my tenor maybe 2-3 months ago, shires ring. $200 for parts, $500 total. Bell comes off so that probably helped the cost. Case was more...watched him do it- $500 felt like a bargin given the "only one shot" nature of the job.

Been my daily work horn for a while so I know it well and it feels like it basically plays the same. It felt exactly the same for the first hour, maybe a touch sluggish the second, and totally normal the third. The only difference I think i feel is that it's a little more solid on the 2nd partial than it was precut.

A student of mine has the Sauer/Shires one. Really nice horn, but don't much care for the case (though it does look classy). Really flat, but has no taper so it just feels like it has dead space (it would be nice if the extra space could be used to put things). Has no backpack straps so it doesn't seem so comfortable if you're carrying a lot and makes it harder to hang over the shoulder to discreetly bring on a plane if needs be.

Just out of curiosity, what bell did you have cut? Just wondering if it not changing much has anything to do with the weight or style of your bell

[/quote]
Just out of curiosity, what bell did you have cut? Just wondering if it not changing much has anything to do with the weight or style of your bell
[/quote]

It's a funny one and that I'm not totally sure about itxs details. It's an unstampted prototype that's a Benge bell, but quite thin and maybe a different alloy than normal. Going to have it done to my 88 soon, so will have a more traditional comparison.

If you're put off by the price, just get a factory cut Holton with a case. They are a great deal.

The factory screw-bell Holton's are very nice. I've owned both the straight and valved dual bores.
Super comfortable, very consistent, a little dark for the way I play, but very nice.
Not a bad case, but I threw a belt around mine when on a plane just in case.

I'd still be comfortable cutting almost any bell, I've done it to a couple.

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 12:45 pm $400 to $500 is accurate.
I've had John Sandhagen do 2 for me, one ring from Shires and one from Instrument Innovations.
The Shires is lighter, and the screw is tighter / a little tougher to get lined up.
The Instrument Innovations is a lot closer to the old Holton screw feel, but it is a bit heavier.
Neither changed the sound or feel of the attack much, the heavier ring did change how much energy comes off the back of the bell a little, kinda threw me off a bit, but didn't really change the sound.
As far as weight of the horn, adding a ring to a heavier horn made less of a difference, none really, adding a ring to a light horn was more of a difference.
Since you're thinking about doing this to an alto, there have been some Pfretzschners hanging around already with a ring.
Or you could start off with a Yamaha 350C, or make your own if you wanted it to sound like a tenor.
Attached is a 350C with a holton bell in a 3/4 viola case, still working on the case.

out of curiosity, how exactly do you go about modifiying the case?

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:32 pm
out of curiosity, how exactly do you go about modifiying the case?

A screw bell trombone will fit in the original case with the bell attached.

If you want to take advantage of the travel possibilities you need a new case.

I had a bell cut from shires for $250 by the head tech guy there and he got it done pretty fast. Bought a bell from him for super cheap and then asked if he could cut it and he got it out within the same day.

I'm reading this thread, but the need for this doesn't seem so urgent right now. It's a lot of money to spend on something that seems cool but has no real practical application lately. They should just make trombones with screwbells as the standard option which would not cost the consumer anything (you wouldn't be undoing the work someone did to create a two piece bell, it would just be a slightly different job during the manufacturing process). No one is the wiser about how it affects the playing of the horn, and then you have what you need when you need it. But I'm imagining trying to have to convince a spouse "oh honey, I need to convert my trombone to a screwbell and get a special case that costs $350 so that all the flying I'm going to do will be easier". That look any of us here would get, lol!

Peter Steiner and Ralph Sauer are the ones who needed (past tense) a screwbell horn prior to COVID-19.

It's cool to imagine all the traveling you're going to do with your viola case, but how crucial is this for the average bear?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:53 pm Peter Steiner and Ralph Sauer are the ones who needed (past tense) a screwbell horn prior to COVID-19.

It's cool to imagine all the traveling you're going to do with your viola case, but how crucial is this for the average bear?

Depends on the bear. I played in Carnegie Hall with a jacked up bell due to it being checked under the plane. They jacked it up on the way home, too, cracking a fiberglass Eastman case all the way through. If I'd had the screw bell then, the horn would have been on the plane with me. When I've flown to play out of town conferences the last few years, I've used the screw bell. I like my other (non-cut) bell better, but I prefer knowing the horn will be in the plane with me. When I've flown home to visit my folks and taken a horn to practice and stay in shape, I've loved having the screw bell.

Before I had the bell cut, I used a foam lined flight case (after the Carnegie trip). Heavy as lead and had to be checked. It worked but there was always the worry about how things how come out on the other end of the flight. With the cut bell in the overhead, my stress level is much lower.

Of course, my needs may be different from other bears. I think if you travel with your horn on airplanes with any frequency, it is worth considering, especially for bass trombonists, since most bass cases don't fit in overhead compartments on domestic jets. But that's just the opinion of this one bear.