Bach 40B

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi everyone,

An anonymous forum member sent me some photos of his NY 40B bell sections.  After a careful look with my trained eyes and some back and forth brief discussion I think I know what specifications this horn has.  The original slide has never been in the owner's possession.

So as long as the pics came through here is what I see:

Prewar NY Bach engraving.
Bell is marked as a 451 mandrel, I believe this is the same as the Bach 45 bell.  Owner says it takes bass trombone mutes
Tuning slide is shaped like a 45, but is in between the span of a 36 and the span of a 45 (owner measured)
All bends are hand bent and uneven.  Bach made very few F attachment horns this early, I am not surprised.
The valve section tubing looks like it is the same span as a 36B, hence the odd bracing between the bell and top of the wrap.

The owner described this horn as very dark, which wouldn't be a surprise to me if it had intended to be played with a .525-.547" slide as per some early catalogs (Thanks Andy!)

I know of 3 40Bs in existence (for certain), to bad one is used for a marching band.

Benn

[ttf_elmsandr]

Ohhhh pretty pictures!  A couple of other questions, what other bells are made on the 451 mandrel?  I can't remember off the top of my head. Also, what slide receiver?

And lastly, a marching band?  I love marching bands, but that is a bad situation. Jailbreak?

Cheers,
Andy

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

Andy that school owned (marched with) 40B was mentioned on the forum a number of years back.

It is important to note that all large bore Bachs from this period were custom made and that we can not assume that the 451 bell was standard if there even was a standard build for a 40B.

I think the 451 mandrel is the 45 bell as I believe I have seen that number on early 45 bells.  This 40B appears to have a smaller lower leg on the tuning slide than a 45 and probably smaller valve bore as well. I will ask the owner if he has a caliper and get back later.

Benn

[ttf_octavposaune]

Here is another thread with some more pertinent information.  The earliest 40B described in this thread started off with a 415 bell!!!!  Thats a small bore bell!!  Then it ended up with a 451 bell (45 sized)

That 40B kept being sold back to Bach and modified until someone actually liked it.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,22862.0.html

Benn

[ttf_octavposaune]

Here is the thread were a 40B is mentioned in the DFW area,

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,43749.0.html

Jason8844 (no longer with us, I think he was banned) mentioned that it was in Eric Edwards shop.

Hummm sounds like 40Bs might just have the same larger throat bell that 45s have, this has been interesting to research with what little time I have,

Benn

[ttf_ParLawGod]

I would love to try out a 40B!

Thanks for the pictures!

[ttf_Slipmo]

I think Schiffko owned one of these 40B's at one point. Maybe he'll chime in.

[ttf_anonymous]

Quote from: ParLawGod on Jul 26, 2012, 08:29AMI would love to try out a 40B!

Thanks for the pictures!

You might be disappointed. There could be a reason it was not made for long and dropped out of the catalog in the 50s.

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

I have some additional information from the owner of the pictured 40B.  It is absolutely a large bore tenon, same as 50-45-42.  It has a 45 under the VB signature, which is supposed to mean the gage of metal, although I am not certain it relates exactly to normal gages.  45 gage would be paper thin.

The owner took some measurements and it looks like the tuning slide while wider spanned than a 36-42 crook has the same ID and OD upper and lower tuning slide tubes as current model 36-42 slides and the f attachment is the same bore as Bach tenor F attachments.

I did some research on pictures of shop cards this morning. The 50s, 45, 42s and 40s all have different bells, tuning crooks, and neckpipes.  The number 451 only shows up on 40Bs.  The bell listed for MV 42s is 414.

I need to find a shop card on a Bach 36 to confirm my suspicions about some of these numbers, if anyone has one please PM Me.

Benn  

[ttf_ParLawGod]

QuoteYou might be disappointed. There could be a reason it was not made for long and dropped out of the catalog in the 50s.Possibly so, but I do find enjoyment in playing vintage/rare/hard to find horns.

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

I think the point of this thread was to show an actual 40B. They were not terribly popular and hence the 42 took its place.  It doesn't mean that they weren't good horns, but perhaps they didn't match what buyers wanted back then.

The owner of the pictured horn says depending on the group it works fantastic in some circumstances on 2nd trombone in an orchestra.  I can imagine it would, a larger throated bell than a 42 with a modern .547 slide would transition well especially to today's larger than Bach 50 bass trombones.

I am attaching a link to the shop card example thread.  It shows several shop cards with specifications on them for 42-45-50s and a bunch of small bores including a model 4 (that horn I have actually played, I know the current owner)
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,59944.0.html

I am skeptical of the use of all of the different number aligning themselves on the cards to one model.  leadpipes, neckpipes, tuning slide bows, all the same number for a given model, when it is certain that many of the parts were reused between the models.  The NY40B thread listed above has a shop card reference and the bell number 451 shows up as the last variant of the horn.

I would love to try a 40B someday.  Hopefully one with an original dual bore slide.  It is unlikely to happen, there were probably only a couple/few dozen of these horns made at the most.  Bach didn't make many larger bore horns and only 6300 before the transition to Elkhart??  probably half of those are model 6s alone, another 1/4 8s, 12s, and 16s and perhaps another 1/4 would be model 30s and larger.  Food for thought.

I would like to own a NY slide trumpet, but Andy probably has one of 2-3 built.  

Benn

[ttf_MT Vernon 45]

Hello Benn
Great infos and pics!
If I remember right, the 45 prototype,
that I attached a pic in your 45 bell thread,
has 451 on bell.
I have a pic on the bells engraving I can attach later.
To me this 40B bell looks very close to a standard 9" 45 bell.
Thanks, Niclas.

[ttf_Scooter]

I have researched the "45" stamped on Bach bells. It is the metal gage and is a thickness abstraction that Bach unilaterally came up with the coding.  It is not "paper thin". In fact, "45" is the "standard gage" for most Bach trombones.

An In depth analysis of this can be found in "bacholgy" on the Bach Brass website as it relates to trumpets and trumpet development.

After the war, and possibly before the "45" was dropped and it was simply understood that was a standard metal gage.  Bach made very few Alternative gages.  I.e, heavy weight or thin gage metal horns.

Look for "other" number stamps than "45" in early Bach logos. I have a model 8ii circa 1941 with a "51" stamp and the gage is heavier. I think the heavier Gage's were more common on the trumpets----but, I am speculating.

Cheers!

[ttf_octavposaune]

I suspected the 45 was not related to the normal gage thickness, but I don't care too much about the gage at this point.  There are construction and specification question that are more important to me than how thick the bell is on these old horns.

Bachology has far fewer shop cards than this forum had in various threads.  I will compile a list of all of the numbers from the shop card thread when I have some time this weekend and show them in comparison.

I do believe some 45s have 451 bells marked on them, I have seen them in pictures numerous times, and I believe they may in fact be the same as the 465 bell.

At this point the evidence is looking like Bach labeled all of the parts for a given model with that model's numbers regardless of whether or not they came from other pre-existing models or not.  I need a 36 shop card for that reason.  To verify if known cross over parts are relabeled.  I know of a NY36 serial number, but I would love to get a MV 36 shop card as well for a good reference since NY36s are a bit different than later models.

This has been a fun exercise,

Benn

[ttf_schiffko]

i am sorry. i never had a 40B.
unfortunately.....
i once had an early elkhart 45B
but this horn was played to death and covered with red rot over and over....
it had a standard 547" slide which was stamped 45 but it played like a stock 42 slide IMO....
the bell had 9"

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

OK I went through the shop cards that were available online quickly, Here are the results:

Model   Bell   Tuning Bow  Neckpipe  Leadpipe
40        451      451           451         414
42        414      414           414         454
45 (2)   465      465           465         454
46        465      465           465         454
50        453      453           453         453

I'll post more later if I can get ahold of some 36 shop cards, and maybe some other cards.  Anyone have anything large bore related to send me please do. 

Benn

edited to include 46 stats

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

So as to be expected there is a patern developing.  Primary bore of a 40B is the same as a 36.  414 leadpipe, Bach 42 are an enlargement of the 36.  Everything except the leadpipe is 414.

I wish to see if a 36 shop card reads all 414s.  The .547 leadpipes 42-45 all show 454 leadpipes. I am also now very curious about 34s as there is speculation concerning the 34 specs (bell mandrels, leadpipes primarily).

Benn

[ttf_octavposaune]

HI All,

I have more thoughts/theories to post.  While thinking about the use of numbers on the shop cards I became aware of how indeed you could have the same internal tapers on some parts but relabel them for different models.

The 36-40-45 bows could be drawn/formed on the same mandrel, and then bent differently. The shop cards do not list what mandrel the bows or neckpipes are made on, only the bells.

The neckpipes could also share tapers as well, but the 50 and 45 probably share the same neckpipe but it might be cut to a different length etc..  The 45 tuning slide is substantially shorter than the 50 tuning slide, which makes me think that perhaps the other sections of the bell might be a little longer to compensate for pitch.  But this is pure speculation.  It is difficult to get known examples to examine and compare all in a row.

The 40B might have a specific neckpipe as well.  I looked at the neckpipe and it looks to have a full bore at the valve knuckle, unlike the choked bore of the 42 at the valve knuckle.  So it might be something like the M neckpipe on modern 42s which starts at the valve knuckle bore .562 instead of the 36 neckpipe which is about .530" at the valve and only goes up to about .560" at the terminus.  For most of the stock 36-42 neckpipe it sits at .530 to .535 and only abruptly taper the last inch or so, this works well for a 36, but not as well for a 42.

The pictures of the 40B don't show the choke point, and it may not have one.  I'll ask the owner for an OD next to the connecting ferrule and see if it lines up with an open or standard neckpipe.

Benn

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

I heard from the owner of the 40B.  The OD of the neckpipe at the valve is .590 +/- .005 and the OD at the tuning slide connecting ferrule is .635"  This is consistant with an ID of .562" starting point and about a .593 ending point  The lower inner tube of a 36-42 tuning slide is .593 so this makes sense to me.

This looks like an "M" neckpipe on a modern 42.

Benn

[ttf_octavposaune]

Hi All,

I got a number of shop cards for freinds and there are some interesting stats.

Yup 36s are all 414 along with the bell sections of the 42.

The 40B has a 414 leadpipe from a 36

The 45 has the same leadpipe as the later 42s 454

The kicker is the Bach 34 has a different bell mandrill (original sp at Bach) and all other parts are the same 36

There have been discussions concerning the differences between 34 and 36s in the past.  Now a shop says that the bells are in fact different along with the slightly smaller slide bore.  The mouthpipe is the same as the 36 414

Sorry to revive the dead here, but I just got some of this information today

Benn

[ttf_elmsandr]

Excellent update!

Now the only question is has a 414 or a 451 always meant the same shape?  Reading Roy Hempley's history of the Bach C trumpets and their changes over time and the re-work of the mandrels makes you wonder.   I don't think there was nearly as much experimentation on the trombone side of the business...

Cheers,
Andy

[ttf_josh roseman]

for your perusials:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/E4gFrvhnBVU2KCtl1

[ttf_droffilcal]

Quotefor your perusials:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/E4gFrvhnBVU2KCtl1
Wow! What a beauty! How does it play?

[ttf_josh roseman]

too soon to say, she's not-yet-in my possession.. will be sure to report back

[ttf_RJMason]

Josh we will have to have another trombone testing session like when we did the Rath/Shires hang a few years back.

I acquired a Bach 30 recently, which is .514/.525 with an 8 inch Bell made on the same 451 Bell mandrel the 40 may have been made on. Only accepts bass trombone mutes.

Beautiful horns, rare beauties....

[ttf_Driving Park]

Quote from: josh roseman on Oct 03, 2017, 12:11PMfor your perusials:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/E4gFrvhnBVU2KCtl1

That is gorgeous.

[ttf_BillO]

If I saw that from 10' away I'd say it was a Conn 88H.  Which came first?

[ttf_josh roseman]

Hi, All- just a quick note, I wanted to thank Benn, Steve Dillon and others for adding so much useful background information about this model (and by extension, it seems to me, concerning the development of the modern .547.)
I took delivery yesterday of a Bach 40 pictured in the links above, with serial #1230, which would date it back to the mid 1930's.
 it has many of the characteristics Benn had described, including:

* a bell design that's fundamentally different from a 42 in geometry of the flare and in terms of the composition of the bead
* a tuning slide and valve section that's wider than a 42, perhaps comparable to a 45-
so, ergonomically similar, but the tuning slide plays and looks a little unlike any bach design I'd seen before
* gauge of metal that seems fundamentally lighter than a modern 42
* hex-type connecting materials and braces, typical nickel-silver NY Bach neckpipe

interestingly, the receiver to the bell is also more open than a modern 42, and while it can be tricked to receive a slide from a 42 (or even a Shires,) it requires some kind of buffer "washer" material to keep it in secure and in place (I padded the connection with a thin layer of plastic wrap in my first round of experiments with straight .547 slides)

I have to say the bell section plays beautifully, it's a very convincing and musical-sounding instrument.
it seems the design is a bit of a missing link, one that appeals to me a great deal and one which may be worth revisiting
the flare, tuning slide and valve geometry are very generous-feeling without losing focus.

and then of course there are the other variables-  the materials used at that time (notably the superthin lacquer, the metal itself) and the hand-wrought nature of all the bends.
like many of these earlier designs, the bell interacts with the player in a very individual way, with personality- even on a note-by-note basis.
thanks again, more notes to follow - J

[ttf_octavposaune]

Did you get a shop card? If not I can assist.

Benn

[ttf_josh roseman]

Benn- thanks a ton, that's kind (and a good idea.)  I'll try reaching out to Conn / Selmer and see how it works out- still digesting some of the info you've posted above.

I'd also love to know if you have any other insight into the spec / history of the 451 mandrel and tuning bow. 
my sense is that the geometry may be derived from a more traditional german/romantic-era kind of design (I've dabbled a bit in that area and even bought a few in Europe, but I'm hardly an expert.)

Ray J- absolutely, we're overdue!

Driving Park- thanks, I find the craftsmanship inspiring and thought provoking also

[ttf_octavposaune]

OK,

I have an inside link to get you a card pretty quickly. They come as scanned files.  The 40Bs are close to a 45 by spec.  I examined a MV 45 tuning slide and found that they are likely rebent 36 crooks, the measurement of bore and length indicated that they fell inline with production variations.  The bending jigs for 45 tuning slide bows were long gone and I had to have another manufacture custom bend a bow for me. 

The 40B is likely and intermediate span between a 36 and 45 and likely using the 36 tuning slide taper.  The bell taper is of course much larger. 

It is also interesting to note that 45s came with two different bell mandrels on their cards.  Later ones had a different number.  I can't remember right now and I have to dig up my spreadsheet with the info.

Josh, do you have original dual bore small shank hand slide?

Benn

[ttf_octavposaune]

Shop Card procured and sent to Josh Roseman!

Interesting specs, from 1938!

Benn

[ttf_anonymous]

Hi All,

Just read your messages with great interest. I’ve got a Bach 40B, serial nr. 159 (ca. 1931). I’ve had this for years. It’s in like-new condition and is in its original case. No scratches, dents, corrosion or wear on the slide or braces. No repairs. Inner slide is like a mirror.

This horn was featured in the German magazine “Sonic” in 2004.

I’ve always enjoyed playing on it, but never used it in the section.

Long story short: it’s looking for a new home. Any interest out there? I’ll be coming over to the US on Oct. 24 for a week and could bring it along.

Pictures below. Give a shout if you have any questions.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0wfn2hpa05m2pv/AACiqRlaltPJlTKiVqyjNHjNa?dl=0

[ttf_tbarh]

Quote from: Steven Singer on Oct 14, 2017, 11:15AMHi All,

Just read your messages with great interest. I’ve got a Bach 40B, serial nr. 159 (ca. 1931). I’ve had this for years. It’s in like-new condition and is in its original case. No scratches, dents, corrosion or wear on the slide or braces. No repairs. Inner slide is like a mirror.

This horn was featured in the German magazine “Sonic” in 2004.

I’ve always enjoyed playing on it, but never used it in the section.

Long story short: it’s looking for a new home. Any interest out there? I’ll be coming over to the US on Oct. 24 for a week and could bring it along.

Pictures below. Give a shout if you have any questions.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0wfn2hpa05m2pv/AACiqRlaltPJlTKiVqyjNHjNa?dl=0

Absolutely stunning !

[ttf_elmsandr]

Quote from: Steven Singer on Oct 14, 2017, 11:15AMHi All,

Just read your messages with great interest. I’ve got a Bach 40B, serial nr. 159 (ca. 1931). I’ve had this for years. It’s in like-new condition and is in its original case. No scratches, dents, corrosion or wear on the slide or braces. No repairs. Inner slide is like a mirror.

This horn was featured in the German magazine “Sonic” in 2004.

I’ve always enjoyed playing on it, but never used it in the section.

Long story short: it’s looking for a new home. Any interest out there? I’ll be coming over to the US on Oct. 24 for a week and could bring it along.

Pictures below. Give a shout if you have any questions.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0wfn2hpa05m2pv/AACiqRlaltPJlTKiVqyjNHjNa?dl=0

That's so beautiful, it isn't fair.

I know that I am interested, but I am not sure how fair an offer for this I could make right now.  Still have a Fuchs build that is not complete.

Cheers,
Andy

[ttf_elmsandr]

Quote from: Steven Singer on Oct 14, 2017, 11:15AMHi All,

Just read your messages with great interest. I’ve got a Bach 40B, serial nr. 159 (ca. 1931). I’ve had this for years. It’s in like-new condition and is in its original case. No scratches, dents, corrosion or wear on the slide or braces. No repairs. Inner slide is like a mirror.

This horn was featured in the German magazine “Sonic” in 2004.

I’ve always enjoyed playing on it, but never used it in the section.

Long story short: it’s looking for a new home. Any interest out there? I’ll be coming over to the US on Oct. 24 for a week and could bring it along.

Pictures below. Give a shout if you have any questions.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0wfn2hpa05m2pv/AACiqRlaltPJlTKiVqyjNHjNa?dl=0

That's so beautiful, it isn't fair.

I know that I am interested, but I am not sure how fair an offer for this I could make right now.  Still have a Fuchs build that is not complete.

Cheers,
Andy