TromboneChat

Hi
I've been trying to work on my range for a while now, and a week ago, I was able to play up to a high Ab (not comfortably and sounded bad, but I was able to play it). However, after looking up how to play higher, everyone said to make my lips tighter to make a higher frequency. I tried this a couple of days ago, and i was able to barely play a high Bb! It seemed a bit weird that I was able to play a whole note higher so I tried doing glissandi's to the Bb to check if I was changing my lip position or something, but the only thing I felt changing was my lips getting tighter, and my lips scrunched together so the mouthpiece was covering a bit more of my mouth. Yeah I had to put a bit more pressure on my lips, but since it was my first time, I think over time I will get better and put less pressure on my lipis.
I was wondering if I am working on my high range wrong? Meaning, am I doing something that you shouldn't do?
Thanks for your help!

Hi.
You are entering a wonderful world of practice. I don't know if I am the best person to give you an advice but, I do practice my high range quite a lot (an example of my high range use could be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkiUqJ16swc), I would suggest a few ideas:
1. Take it easy and SLOWLY
2. Practice a lot of lip slurs (A LOT)
3. Pay a lot of attention to your air support, make every note sound good
4. Maybe you want to ask a teacher for good exercises for that
5. You might want to consult a good book that has also good exercises in it (Charles Colin's lip flexibilities)

In general, I think that adding pressure is not the best way to achieve high range.
High range to my experience is achieved only by slowly gathering lip strength and flexibility through daily exercise.

Good luck on your journey !

I second everything tbn_ervin said. The Colin book is excellent for upper register.

And regarding pressure, more pressure is bad. I find that I actually pull away from the mouthpiece a bit when playing extremely high, like C5 (two above bass staff) and higher. Usually on bad days, I can get F5 (two above staff) and really good days F#5 or G5.

But, as mentioned, take it slow. High register can be quite taxing and you can hurt yourself if you take things too quickly. Pick up a copy of the Colin book and work through it. It has flexibility exercises in it that are progressive in range. My suggestion, since you can play the high Bb, is play the exercises that go to the high Bb for a week or so to strengthen the embouchure (assuming you are practicing daily for maybe 30-60 minutes). Maybe play some Rochut that goes to the high Bb. The following week, if you feel ready, move the the ones that go to high C. Spend a week there. Move to the D then next. You get the drill. But remember, play other things as well during your practice sessions. Give the chops rests from playing the high notes. After playing in the high register, it's always good to play some lower register stuff to relax the chops.

If any time things start to hurt, you are going too quickly.


And  don't get discouraged. One of my trombone teachers told me when I was impatient with my progress....

"Rome wasn't built in a day."

The same goes for trombone . Slow and steady wins the race .

Even one lesson with a good teacher might go a long way to remove some of the mystery behind range.

Also, while exercises should help, sometimes they don't work unless you do them right.  I've several times realized my concept of how to do an exercise was wrong only after hearing somebody demonstrate how to do it correctly. 

For the longest time I thought I would never have any high range.  Sure I could hit the high notes.  But there is a difference between hitting (more like clubbing) and playing notes.  Then one day my teacher introduced me to lip slurs and lets just say I am much improved.  In other words I send what the above posters are saying on lip slurs and flexibility exercises.

Long tones are perhaps equally important, but it is good to do both.  Too much of one or the other is not good.

oops, typo.  I said I send what the others are saying.  Meant to say I SECOND what they are saying.

Listen to Dave Steinmeyer, as far as a beautiful sound in the high range he is the absoulute best. Alot of guys can hit a Double High C, but not everyone can hit it like Dave.

What I use for high range is bordogni Etudes up an octave.  They are super efficient for this because they require lots of control in the high register (because you need to lip slur to surrounding notes).  Some bordogni's are high not up an octave and they are a great way to excel in the high register. 

Another thing that I use is the Alessi Warmup Routine.The alessi routine has a section in it with just arpeggios.  I alter them by starting from as low as I can play to as high as I can play and back down only lip sluring.  This forces you to keep the same consistent embouchure through all your registers.

And make sure you are playing the horn in the same HEALTHY way as you would play in your lower register.  Lots of people will tighten way more then necessary and bad habits can emerge.   

Quote from: Doodle92 on Mar 28, 2012, 02:17AMListen to Dave Steinmeyer, as far as a beautiful sound in the high range he is the absoulute best. Alot of guys can hit a Double High C, but not everyone can hit it like Dave.

I think the evidence is that he is an outlier.

I imagine most pros can squeak a double Bb, even those who don't specialize in high range.  But Dave can hammer that note. 

I would guess that most of us, playing properly, would eventually have a usable high F? 

"Think product, not methodology." The way to have a reliable upper register and have it sound free and easy is to not think about how you are technically producing the tone. Instead, focus on the product. Focus on hearing the pitch before you play it and the sound in your head. The next important thing to focus on is the type of air stream you are using. Most people tend to focus on the embouchure and blame their chops for poor upper register. This is a mistake. The real problem is in your head. "Don't reach for notes with your chops, reach with your brain." -Arnold Jacobs

When a good vocalist is singing a beautiful melody, do you think they are thinking about what their vocal chords are doing? Of Course not, they are only thinking about the song they are singing and how they want to sound. Have a think about it.

Steven

Quote from: sahboneplayer87 on Mar 28, 2012, 09:43PM The next important thing to focus on is the type of air stream you are using. Most people tend to focus on the embouchure and blame their chops for poor upper register. Steven

I dunno if that's really the case.  I've heard "it's all in the air" at least 100 times for every time I've heard it's in the chops. 

This is the hierarchy..... Ear > Air > Embouchure

I see so many trombonists who put the horn to their face and hope that that the note they are trying to play comes out, instead of knowing that the note is going to come out. This is because they aren't clearly hearing the pitch and how they want to sound in their head before they play. Many many players are too concerned with the trombone instead of making music and how the music should sound. Way too much paralysis by analysis going on on this forum. Just hear how you want to sound and follow that sound. Don't think too much about how you are doing something. If it sounds good then do it. There is no right way for everyone. If you are  practicing correctly your technique will come naturally. Focus on being a musician not a trombone player and your playing should fall into place more naturally. To play a brass instrument well is a very simple process. To play a brass instrument poorly is a very complicated process. 

Quote from: sahboneplayer87 on Mar 29, 2012, 10:24AMJust hear how you want to sound and follow that sound. Don't think too much about how you are doing something.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

Mine differs.   I think that is a one-size-fits-all approach that works well for some people and not at all for others. 

But I don't want to convince you, I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on this one. 

Somebody help me here.  With trombone when speaking of high notes what is high C high F etc.  and what is double high?

Is middle C    the same as high C?  or is high C  ?  So when timothy says that most of us playing correctly can hit a usable high F what note is that?

I've been playing for almost three weeks and have been surprised at how quickly my range is growing At first I could barely get  but I already have stretched an octave from there almost to the next F two ledger lines above the staff and can hit the E right below consistently.

I guess I just want to know what notes people are refering to.

  Is the high C people refer to.  The high F would be  .  I haven't stumbled onto music that requires higher than that F yet but I'm sure there probably is some.  I've heard some people squeak out Bb above that F but I'm not quite there yet myself.  I top out around  these days.

So I have a ways to go, lol.  Of course if I continue at the current rate of range increase I'll be there in a few weeks (I kid, I kid).

I'm sure a lot of these guys will tell you the same thing and already have somewhat, but having a big range doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't play them in context. 

Be careful not to fall into the category of working on range at the expense of flexibility and accuracy as range will come over time as a side effect of working on other things.

my high range has improved the most since I started doing fundamentals with a dedicated mental focus on producing a great tone efficiently. Mostly between  and  ...  works for me.

Quote from: duderubble on Mar 29, 2012, 01:55PM So when timothy says that most of us playing correctly can hit a usable high F what note is that?

I don't know that for a fact, that's why there was a question mark at the end of the sentence, but it seems reasonable.  I'm talking about this note:

It seems logical there are notes everybody can eventually reach, and notes that only those with special talent get.  But that may be wrong too. 

Bill Watrous said to make this G  the center of your comfortable range.  I heard Doug Elliott say the same thing about the F    (probably not for bass trombone players <smiley>)  Anyway, that's what I try to do. 

Wow, that seems a long way away.  So far I've been playing familiar songs and working on intonation, speed, learning the positions and feel of each note and gradually working my way up on range.  My goal is really just to have fun so I haven't been working on any drills other than a Bb scale and long tones and glissing up.  But perhaps I need to take a month of lessons and get myself started right.  I can't see paying for lessons long term given that I don't really aspire to greatness or any kind of competition, but some initial help couldn't hurt.

I think getting with a good teacher when you're first starting out is incredibly important.  A good teacher will be able to get you started with good fundamentals so that 10 years later you don't have to go back and fix something you never knew was a problem in the first place, not that I'm speaking from personal experience or anything =P

Quote from: duderubble on Mar 29, 2012, 06:48PMWow, that seems a long way away. 
I doubt if anybody worries about the high F their first few years.  I think it will wait for you!  <g>  Maybe thinking that it is eventually within reach helps.  When I was in high school we didn't know that note was possible, we thought high Bb was the top end, and difficult. 

Quote from: kmattman on Mar 29, 2012, 07:34PMI think getting with a good teacher when you're first starting out is incredibly important.  A good teacher will be able to get you started with good fundamentals so that 10 years later you don't have to go back and fix something you never knew was a problem in the first place, not that I'm speaking from personal experience or anything =P

Yeah, when i was a Sophomore in HS I finally started taking trombone lessons. I think my first $200 of lessons were spent on the earliest 10 pages of Walter Beeler's Method for Trombone Book 1.

You'll have to drop the dough sooner or later, might as well get it taken care of when your bad habits aren't ingrained that badly.

The quick route to developing the high register is a good kick or knee in the crotch.....oh wait, that's for vocalists.

Hi
I'm back again.
I could ask my private instructor, but honestly speaking, although he is a good player and all, I sometimes worry that I am messing up on my basics still be cause that's what happened to my sister on flute. Although she had a pretty good teacher, when she switched to an even better one, the new one told her that she had it all wrong and had to start from scratch again...
Anyways, I was wondering, does your embrochure change when playing in the upper range. I know it gets tighter and all, but does your upper lips ever overlap your lower lips?
or do you have the same embrochure as when your playing a middle Bb?
Thanks for all the help by the way!

Why are brass players afraid of playing high notes! Usually, because they do not play that range often enough.

You have to be comfortable in your "jeans". Practice your higher notes daily as part of your routine, then they just become other notes you play...which they are.

I mostly play bass trombone, but I often get parts with many leger lines above the staff. Rather than freak out ("OMGD that is really high!") I just think of the musical context, how is it suppossed to sound.

To prepare, my daily routine covers 5 octaves, which I usually do in about 20 minutes. As a tuba player friend tells me, "I don't need those notes, but I am glad I can play them."

In other words, in your personal practice, accomplish goals beyond your expectation. Be better than you need to be.

For range, think of the music, not the "high" notes. Put your brain into the sound you want, not how "fix" your lips. The principal trumpet in my local orchestra says, "Don't think high, think like a piano. Extended range you need to change your reach". Imagine a keyboard, as you blow low to high, reduce the effort and focus on pitch. Yes, some physical intensity will kick in, but accept that and only think of the pitches you want. If you are in shape (lots of practice and private lessons with accomplished players) it falls into place easily.

That said, some time in the practice room working your lips is a good idea. Then walk out of the practice room, play that horn the best you can!

Hi Elijasonel, you are thinking about the embouchure alot, (I have seen the spelling embrouchure on some net sites, but that is actually a misunderstanding of the word)

I prefer to think: 1 the sound of the tone, 2 the airflow, 3 the contraction and relaxing of face muscles.

However, since your currently interest is about lips: most young players make the lips to tight in the high range, probably because of an insufficient air flow. The embouchure changes for different ranges, but that is a question that is often misunderstood, ask your teacher obout it.
Many players let the upper lip slightly overlap the lower, but that does not work for other players.
I know quite well that I did not help your playing with this; nobody will be able to help you giving “free lessons” on this site.
Go with your teacher, she can hear and see your playing and that is necessary, embouchure is not a universal model, we are so much different, the same advice does not fit all.
The best advices so far, listen to good players!

Elijah, PLEASE don't be afraid to ask your teacher.  Don't be gunshy because of a possible impending change in teacher.

Many teachers like to have their students do things "their way" and may make you make big changes.  I would want to first make sure that these changes are necessary and not just a personal prejudice of your teacher.  A really good teacher will know when you need to make a change and when you don't.  If the new teacher just wants to redo everything, get a second opinion first.  But don't discount that the new teacher with the big change may be right and you have developed some bad habits that got by the first teacher (it happens).

I guess I'll throw my two cents in. The first fundamental is to support the note with your air column coming from your diaphragm. Look in the mirror as you play high. Are your neck muscles tightening? Then you are playing wrong. Keep your neck loose. Push the air column with your diaphragm and control the note by using the corners of your mouth to tighten your lips.

Avoid any pressure on your lips that you can. While I know that we all close our apertures as we play higher, try NOT to think of it in this way. Too many times young players try to squeak out these thin, ugly notes by pinching their chops together. Use the air column to blow through the note. If your lip muscles are not developed enough to control the note, you have work to do. But don't pinch or scrunch your lips or close your aperture too far to play a note.

I teach a combination of the Charles Colin Advanced Lip Flexibilities and the playing of slow ballads to get and sustain the high chops.

One of my favorite teaching examples, to reinforce what Bguttman writes and I strongly agree with, is Ralph Sauer in a teaching clinic that I recently viewed online.  He talks about offering guidelines to students, not suggestions or requirements, but guidelines that "you may want to try".  If a teacher tells you that there is only one correct way to do things-his way, my advice is pack up your trombone and find another teacher.

Google Ralph Sauer on youtube and you can watch the video to which I am referencing above.  It will be the first or second search result and it is around 11 minutes.  I found it very useful.

Many good points offered here.  I was told support the breath, use the diphram, and keep the meat in the mouthpiece.  I do lip slurs. In every warm up up into the high register. I also believe you have to know where you are going in the upper stratosphere.  Just reaching for notes is a crap shoot.  Practise them and get them in your ear.  Check out the double high c's in my ON THE STREET WHERE YOU LIVE recording on my web site. In college i was lucky to have a consistant high Bb until I got the above advice and figured out how it worked.

Quote from: BGuttman on May 09, 2012, 04:21AMElijah, PLEASE don't be afraid to ask your teacher.  Don't be gunshy because of a possible impending change in teacher.

Many teachers like to have their students do things "their way" and may make you make big changes.  I would want to first make sure that these changes are necessary and not just a personal prejudice of your teacher.  A really good teacher will know when you need to make a change and when you don't.  If the new teacher just wants to redo everything, get a second opinion first.  But don't discount that the new teacher with the big change may be right and you have developed some bad habits that got by the first teacher (it happens).
I am actually refering to my first and current teacher
He's a good one, but not a professional one and I wish to move on to a teacher who is a professional (or almost) that can teach me well. What I am scared of is that my first and current one might be teaching me wrong things because I found out recently from taking lessons that he isn't the best, although he is a good one.
Thanks for all the answers though!

Quote from: elijahsoneli on May 09, 2012, 07:48PMI am actually refering to my first and current teacher
He's a good one, but not a professional one and I wish to move on to a teacher who is a professional (or almost) that can teach me well. What I am scared of is that my first and current one might be teaching me wrong things because I found out recently from taking lessons that he isn't the best, although he is a good one.
Thanks for all the answers though!


If you're going to wait around util you find the "best" teacher you're going to wait a LONG time. "Best" is subjective, no one is the best at everything, some people are just better at some things than others.

On the subject of BEST: I learned long ago that the best players are not necessarily the best teachers.  I had one who was an OK teacher even though he had a Grammy Nomination, and another teacher who is an equally good player and all of his students it seems go onto becoming professionals.

When you get around to interviewing teachers, try to find out how some of his or her other students have fared, regardless of your teacher's playing ability.  It's the results that count.

Quote from: elijahsoneli on May 08, 2012, 10:00PMHi
I'm back again.
I could ask my private instructor, but honestly speaking, although he is a good player and all, I sometimes worry that I am messing up on my basics still be cause that's what happened to my sister on flute. Although she had a pretty good teacher, when she switched to an even better one, the new one told her that she had it all wrong and had to start from scratch again...
Anyways, I was wondering, does your embrochure change when playing in the upper range. I know it gets tighter and all, but does your upper lips ever overlap your lower lips?
or do you have the same embrochure as when your playing a middle Bb?
Thanks for all the help by the way!

It's also the case that a lot of people will shy away from describing specific embouchure motions because it is a very complex study which is easy to get wrong. In terms of whether or not your upper lip should overlap your lower lip, as Sven said, it varies. One way to look at this from a slightly different angle is to think of blowing your airstream more toward the edge of the mouthpiece cup for the high range, and more toward the middle, directly down the bore, for the low range. But, some people can't tell what is going on inside the mouthpiece, so this visualization is sometimes useless.

Also, a better way of thinking of the emboucure 'tightening' would be that in the high range, the airstream becomes faster and narrower.

Sorry for the wording, but I am not trying to find the "best" teacher because yes, that would take a LONG time. I know that there are people good at playing, but not at teaching as well as vice versa. This goes the same with school teachers and all that. I am just trying to find one who has successful students, but I think I found one and will try contacting him soon.

As for my range, I had a couple of questions. Would it be bad to ONLY work on range for about a month? Meaning would this not help much on my range or would this be benificial? Or is the range something that needs everything else as well? The only reason I am asking this is because I NEED to increase my range very fast, very soon. I am NOT saying this because I want to "show off" or something, but rather because I can't even hit notes that we play in orchestra or band and it is very embarassing. Since the school year is almost over, I plan on working on my range a lot in the summer. However, I'm not sure how to aproach it.
I could play a G comfortably and make a very "airy" sounding A. My goal is to try to reach a D by the end of the summer, although I know that is a long way away.
Would it be best to work on everything and include range with it?
Or would doing, lets say, 20 min. of range, rest for an hour, then 20 min. again, rest for an hour, and so on? (while still working on other stuff a little, but mainly focusing on range for 20 min. at a time)?
Thanks!
I know this is really rushed and all but thanks for everything so far!

Probably one of the most tiring exercises I did was to extend range.  Generally I would work on it until I "pooped out" and then not for the second day.

Going from G to D above in 2 months is a REAL stretch.  A more realistic goal might be to get to Bb.

One big issue is that if you aren't doing it right you can really cause damage and you may wind up like your sister having to almost start over again.  I don't think this is what you want.  Have your current teacher take a good look at how you are trying to hit high notes.  Denis Wick had a description of "when the notes go up, the corners of the mouth go down".  He was railing about a technique common among British Brass Band players called "smile and press" where what you do to play higher is to pull a smile and press the mouthpiece on harder.  This is bad in more ways than you can count.

How much practice is enough?  When I was working the "Security in the Upper Register" exercises, I was instructed to try to play a particular arpeggio no more than 3 times if I missed the upper note.  And not to practice high the next day.  What is happening is that you are doing muscle building, and your body needs a day to consolidate the changes.

Good luck.

Quote from: BGuttman on May 11, 2012, 03:19AM  What is happening is that you are doing muscle building, and your body needs a day to consolidate the changes.

Good luck.

I'm not sure if we're actually building muscle or if it's a skill thing; I tend to think the latter.
But it doesn't really matter, because fatigue is quick to interfere with the skill part of it as well. 

Range, for 20 minutes multiple times a day?  That would kill my chops quickly.  20 seconds multiple times a day might work. 

Quote from: timothy42b on May 11, 2012, 04:39AMI'm not sure if we're actually building muscle or if it's a skill thing; I tend to think the latter.
But it doesn't really matter, because fatigue is quick to interfere with the skill part of it as well. 

Range, for 20 minutes multiple times a day?  That would kill my chops quickly.  20 seconds multiple times a day might work. 

My teacher always told me, "the only way to get good at playing high, is by playing high a lot."  And i've never seen stronger chops then his.. 
I think its great to play high a LOT, it is good to play to exhaustion, but not too much or you will cause injury.  It really isnt that hard..  Do things like try to articulate cleany 10 straight times starting on F    And do this as high as you can possibly go..  Then take a break!!

Rochut's up an octave are also very efficient in promoting stability in the upper register.

Danny

Quote from: elijahsoneli on May 10, 2012, 10:23PMWould it be bad to ONLY work on range for about a month? Or is the range something that needs everything else as well?
As others (especially Bruce Guttman) have said, you should not just concentrate on playing high. First of all, this can lead to a tendency to squeak notes out and leave your lower range thin. I gauge how well my chops are doing not just by how high I can play, but also by how full my pedal tones are. Besides, once you get up high, you still want to keep some kind of flexibility.

Again, to repeat the other sentiments, don't beat up your chops. Practice range until you start feeling tired; anything beyond this will defeat the result you want. Remember, range takes time. Support notes properly and control them correctly and the range will develop.

General question to all who want to answer: What about the argument that building low range improves high range?  I only paid lip service to my low range when I was younger, but since I have started to really put in some quality time on it (low range) I find that not only is my high range improving, the quality of sound in higher registers is also more focused and clear.

I always noticed over the years that the bass trombone players I would encounter in my playing would almost without exception have the best high range.  Coincidence?

Playing low range correctly for your own face and embouchure type  will help high range.  However, it's often easier to play low incorrectly, so there is no universal answer to that question.

Maggio !!!

That being said, if I focused a bit more on my pedal notes and a bit less on my high notes (still practicing them daily but spending more time on my low range), my high range will increase?

As much as I would like to answer your question with a "yes, definitely" I feel more comfortable letting those who teach professionally answering that question.  I will say every teacher I ever had emphasized working on pedals to "build your foundation" but as Doug pointed out it is only really effective if you are doing it correctly.  Have you asked your teacher for advice and if so, what was the answer?

Actually, my private instructor only comes to my neighborhood on thursdays, and due to school and sports, I wasn't able to find an open time with the time slots he had, so for about the past 2 months I haven't had any lessons. Sports just ended so I'm hoping to meet with him by next week and I will definently ask him then. However, other than that, I don't know too much about range. My friend said that he got his range to a comfortable C and is working on his D (the super high one) and he got it in a couple of months. Now that I think about it, he also has very good pedal notes (he could go to about trigger 4th or 5th position). This lower range might be the key I guess!

Guys like Doug, BGutman, among others, have more experience teaching so I would trust their judgment.  As a non-teacher I will go out on a limb and say low range will help your high range if you do it correctly.  An exercise that I spend a lot of time working on is slurring from pedal B flat, up an octave and then slurring down to the pedal again, all without removing the mouthpiece.  It develops the muscles not to mention good air flow.  It also makes it hard to cheat by using embouchure shifting, which can be used to pop some nice pedals, but it is better to learn without the shift if you really want to develop.  Sure lots of pros use embouchure shifts, but I promise you that they developed the fundamentals first.  George Roberts is one example.  Terry Cravens another.

Would a real teacher care to answer his question?

Brad Edwards Lip Slurs is great for high AND low registers.

It includes leaps to and from the high register and trigger and pedal registers so you learn to play without (or with minimal) shifting. I have found this book very benficial in building real usuable high and low range.

I play exercises from it every day.

On that note, are there any other books you would recommend that would help improve my range? All I really have is the Arbans book and not much else... Thanks!
I'll definently look into Brad Edwards Lip Slurs!

Pretty hard to go wrong with Arbans.  It has been around forever for a reason.
Just practice and practice some more.  When you are done with that pick up your horn and practice.
While you are at it, practice the slurring section in Arbans.