J.C. Penzel

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:50 am

Since there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum, I want to ask if anyone knows anything about this trombone. I've googled already, but there's not a lot to be found.

I bought this trombone mainly for decoration. Nonetheless, I'm curious if it's an original Penzel and if I could somehow tell for sure. The engraving reads "J.C. Penzel - Nachfolger - Leipzig".

It has a dent in the bell and the slide is not in great shape.

Can anyone tell me something or give suggestions to find more information? And any idea about the age?

Thanks in advance!

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:03 pm

My guess would be 1870s.

ttf_MaestroHound · Post by **ttf_MaestroHound** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:09 pm

Johann Christoph Penzel was born in 1817. Vienna Philharmonic used his slide trombones when they switched from valved trombones to slide trombones. Viewed as one of the pioneers, who improved C.F. Sattler's design.

He passed away n 1897. His son succeeded his shop, but he, too, died just a year later. So it would definitely be a 19th Century trombone.

ttf_Vintage88H · Post by **ttf_Vintage88H** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:10 pm

Here is something found on a German website.

Johann Christoph Gottlieb Penzel (18171879) was an instrument maker in Leipzig. He was the workshop follower of Christian Friedrich Sattler. The son of Penzel, Christoph Hermann Robert Penzel died 1880. That was the end of the Penzel instrument makers.

I attache an earlier engraving of an Penzel alto trombone.

Hope this helps.

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Thanks already for all those replies!

Am I guessing right that the 'Nachfolger' engraved on the bell refers to J.C. Penzel, as the follower of Sattler and not to a follower of Penzel himself?

I hope to hear even more

Thanks guys!

ttf_Vintage88H · Post by **ttf_Vintage88H** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 pm

Quote from: Bart on Mar 01, 2012, 12:31PM
Am I guessing right that the 'Nachfolger' engraved on the bell refers to J.C. Penzel, as the follower of Sattler and not to a follower of Penzel himself?

i think the "Nachfolger" means that this trombone was made of J.C Penzel`s son and follower Christoph Hermann Robert Penzel.

ttf_lingon · Post by **ttf_lingon** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:44 pm

Quote from: Vintage88H on Mar 01, 2012, 12:10PM...The son of Penzel, Christoph Hermann Robert Penzel died 1880. That was the end of the Penzel instrument makers...
Does the 'Nachfolger' point to the son then? If so it must be a late Penzel instrument.

Quote from: Vintage88H on Mar 01, 2012, 12:10PM...I attache an earlier engraving of an Penzel alto trombone...
Very nice engraving on those old instruments.

ttf_HowardW · Post by **ttf_HowardW** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:54 am

Quote from: lingon on Mar 01, 2012, 12:44PMDoes the 'Nachfolger' point to the son then? If so it must be a late Penzel instrument.
Very nice engraving on those old instruments.

Are you sure that there is not more engraving on the bell? There was a firm "J.C. Penzel's Nachfolger Oskar Ullmann" that was founded in 1906 and existed until 1943. In spite of the use of Penzel's name, the firm apparently had nothing to do with Penzel (who died in 1879) -- it was just an advertising gimmick, so to speak. If Ullmann's name also appears on the bell, then the instrument is from the early 20th century.

Howard

ttf_MaestroHound · Post by **ttf_MaestroHound** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:01 am

There is a story that says that Ullmann purchased the tools to build his instruments from Penzel, and thus he was allowed by the family of Penzel to call himself as Penzel's successor, along with Schopper who used to work at Penzel's shop. For what it's worth.

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:49 am

Quote from: HowardW on Mar 02, 2012, 12:54AMAre you sure that there is not more engraving on the bell?That's really the only text engraved on the bell (or any other part of the instrument). The bell is surrounded by engravings of oak leaves and little acorns.

Are there any other features that could shed some light on its age or origins?

Edit: I tried to get a better picture of the engraving.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:20 am

How does it play? Have you a mouthpiece that fits?
No tuning slide right?

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:35 am

I don't have a mouthpiece that fits, but I've tried a few notes with a large shank mouthpiece (which fits just a few millimeters). The slide is not usable (needs some repairwork done), but the response of the instrument is quite well! Doesn't cost too much effort to play 4 Bb (starting from the pedalnote). The sound is rather "mellow" (hard to describe sound when English isn't your first language). Today I'm going to borrow a mouthpiece from a friend with the correct shank (somewhere between small and large).

I mainly bought this instrument for decoration purposes, but I can see that the instrument must have been played a lot! The 'ring-decorations' on the places where you put your hands are really worn.

It actually does have a tuning slide! A clue for age?

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:19 am

Hi,
You might find that the M euphonium mouthpieces by Denis Wick are the correct fit for your trombone. They are an intermediate size between small and large shanks(used on the pre 1974 Euphoniums and the old English G bass). They do a 6B and a 4A size. There is also a 6BY and 4AY for old Yamaha euphoniums. Here is the link http://www.deniswick.com/all-products/category/gold-classic-euphonium-mouthpieces They are available in silver or gold plate.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:06 am

With respect, Stew, a DW mouthpiece might fit physically, but will absolutely not represent the right fit aesthetically (in terms of tone quality) for this instrument. A proper German mouthpiece by, for example, Schmidt, would be a more appropriate choice.

I concur with Vintage88H. I think this is very likely to be a trombone made by Johann Christoph Gottlieb Penzel's son and successor, Christoph Hermann Robert Penzel, though dating it might be a problem. We can, however, surmise a rough date based on some facts that we do have to hand. Given that Penzel senior married Christian Friedrich Sattler's daughter in 1842 and that their issue, Christoph Hermann, died a year after his father in 1880, even without his date of birth it is possible to guess that he must have been in his late 40s at the very most, so perhaps the proposed 1870s timeframe is plausible. I rather doubt that it will be possible to date this instrument accurately, so this may be the closest we get.

In terms of chronology, I refer back to a post I made some years ago in a thread on German trombone tradition. There was a line of succession from Christian Friedrich Sattler through the Penzels to Hermann Robert Schopper and Reinhold Oskar Ullmann, whose workshops were both destroyed by air raids in 1943. Below are relevant extracts from the chronology in the aforementioned post. Note that Reinhold Oskar Ullmann was preceded by Robert Hellmann, also technically a Penzel successor.

1778 (Jan. 20) Christian Friedrich Sattler born.
1799 C F Sattler apprenticed to Johann Gottfried Moritz (1799-1805).
1809 C F Sattler establishes workshop, commences development on trombone. Eventually increases bore size from Baroque 10mm (tenor) to approx. 14mm. Bell diameter increased from 15cm (6") to over 20cm (8"). First dual bore slides, spring-loaded slide barrels and Schlangenverzierungen (snake decorations) later applied by Sattler.
1817 (March 15) Johann Christoph Penzel born.
1839 Sattler devises improved Tenorbaßposaune incorporating approximately 1m (3') tube actuated by thumb-operated rotary valve in bell section.
1842 C F Sattler dies. Johann Christoph Penzel takes over Sattler workshop.
1845 J C Penzel marries Sattler's daughter.
1845-50 (approx.) Vienna opera orchestra places order with Sattler workshop for slide trombones to implement transition from valve trombones to slide trombones. Sattler workshop becomes increasingly famous.
1859 (Feb. 21) Hermann Robert Schopper born in Adorf.
1875 (May 13) Reinhold Oskar Ullmann born to wind instrument maker Gustav Erhard Ullmann.
1878 Schopper commences apprenticeship in Sattler workshop.
1879 Johann Christoph Gottlieb Penzel dies.
1880 Christoph Hermann Robert Penzel dies. Sattler workshop closes. Schopper moves to Berlin, later to Friedrich Alwin Heckel workshop in Dresden.
1888 (Sept.) Schopper establishes workshop in Leipzig.
1897 Johann Christoph Penzel dies. Robert Hellmann takes over Penzel (formerly Sattler) workshop.
1898 Robert Hellmann dies. Penzel workshop under threat of closure.
1903 Reinhold Oskar Ullmann employed by Penzel workshop after studying under Gustav Erhard Ullmann.
1907 Reinhold Oskar Ullmann takes over Penzel workshop.
1937 Ullmann's son takes over Ullmann (formerly Sattler, then Penzel) workshop supplying military bands.
1938 (11 Sept.) Schopper dies in Leipzig.
1943 Schopper and Ullmann workshops destroyed in allied air raids. Schopper workshop later reopens briefly after Second World War.
1948 Schopper workshop closes.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:13 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Mar 06, 2012, 09:06AMWith respect, Stew, a DW mouthpiece might fit physically, but will absolutely not represent the right fit aesthetically (in terms of tone quality) for this instrument. A proper German mouthpiece by, for example, Schmidt, would be a more appropriate choice.

Thanks Ed; as I know nothing about German trombones, it was the only suggestion I could make but I bow to your superior knowledge.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:26 am

I, too, bow to your superior knowledge!

Thanks, Edward! You've been a great help. Were there any successors who didn't use their own name, but only the 'nachfolger', except for Penzel junior?

Just a quick question: are there any physical features that might help to date the trombone? It has a tuning slide on the bell and a water key (though I'm not absolutely sure that it's original). But if I'm informed correctly, those were already around in the 1870's. It also has an unsoldered hand slide stay.

Thanks again enormously for all your help!

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:53 am

Check this out:

http://www.mimo-db.eu/mimo/infodoc/Ged/View.aspx?eid=OAI_IMAGE_PROJECTS_LIB_ED_AC_UK_10683_17160&searchId=c0de0400-78b9-4ed9-8ae6-ce7c76ca4e39

Edinburgh has a mouthpiece that's labeled "J.C. Penzel's Nachf. Leipzig". They assume that means it's post-1880. I don't know what information they have to back up that assumption or if the thought that his son (or someone else in his workshop?) could have been making instruments before his death labeled in this way could be plausible.

The MIMO site also has links to a few other original Penzel trombones that they've dated in various ways, but there doesn't seem to be any pattern to the way they are decorated or put together that you could correlate with date.

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:53 am

Quote from: Bart on Mar 06, 2012, 09:26AMWere there any successors who didn't use their own name, but only the 'Nachfolger', except for Penzel junior?

I am not aware of any. Having said that, I've not seen an example of a trombone with the mark of Robert Hellmann, though that doesn't necessarily mean none exists. Plenty of examples of Penzel, Ullmann and Schopper trombones exist so that we can trace the development from Sattler right through the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

Quote from: Bart on Mar 06, 2012, 09:26AMJust a quick question: are there any physical features that might help to date the trombone? It has a tuning slide on the bell and a water key (though I'm not absolutely sure that it's original). But if I'm informed correctly, those were already around in the 1870's. It also has an unsoldered hand slide stay.

The tuning slide sounds like a twentieth century feature, as I'm not aware of any bell tuning trombones made in the nineteenth century. The water key is also potentially a twentieth century feature. These were the two features that troubled me when coming to date it. I still think that if the instrument were produced under Hellmann, Ullmann, or Schopper, there would be a maker's mark reflecting that change of ownership. After all, when Penzel senior took over the Sattler workshop, he wasted no time in changing the engraving.

Unsoldered slide stays are a constant feature of German Konzertposaunen. They have been made that way ever since their inception and are a direct link with the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical predecessors. I have several German trombones, all with unsoldered slide stays, dating from the 1920s to the 1950s.

It is possible that your instrument was later adapted to include the water key, less so the bell tuning. That is still puzzling.

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:16 am

I also found the mouthpiece, but the inscription on the trombone does not read "Penzel's", but has basically the same engraving the J.C. Penzel trombones have, but with the "Nachfolger" added.

I might try to contact MIMO, if they have more information or know where I could get more.

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Mar 06, 2012, 09:53AMIt is possible that your instrument was later adapted to include the water key, less so the bell tuning. That is still puzzling.
Those features troubled me too, since they felt to 'modern' for a 19th century trombone. I already saw that the trombone was used frequently, as the ring-decorations are worn on places where you touch the trombone. Perhaps these were both later added? To accomodate easier tuning and getting rid of the water?

I added a picture of the tuning slide removed from the instrument. For all I know, it doesn't make sense to make the bigger innertube so long. It actually interferes with the conical part of the bell. Also: the smaller outertube has a double ring-decorations, which is nowhere else found on the instrument. Always more rings. Any indication that this was later modified?

Thanks again! I can't stress that enough

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:17 am

tuning slide? really? original photo sure didn't look like it, it didn't look like there was a significant ferrule on the smaller side and the ferrule on the larger side sure looks a little conical to me in the picture -- however, now seeing the additional photo it's obvious!

Makes me think perhaps it's more likely to be 1880 to 1900 time period, after the Penzels died but before Schopper or Ullmann, whose instruments seem to also have their names on them?

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:21 pm

I have found a small amount of biographical information on Johann Christoph Penzel, which might be of interest. This appeared (in German) in the catalogue of the recent exhibition in Leipzig last year. My translation follows. From the text, it is clear to me that it is very difficult indeed to date this trombone precisely.

QuoteJohann Christoph Penzel (1817-1879) was born on 15 March 1817 as the son of a miller and carpenter in Elster near Adorf in the Vogtland. Very little can be discerned about his biography from surviving literature. After Sattler's death in 1842, Penzel took over his workshop and continued to run it under his own name at various locations in Leipzig. On 5 May 1879, Penzel died in Leipzig. His son, Christoph Hermann Robert, continued his father's workshop, but died barely a year after his father, with which the Sattler-Penzel workshop ended.

Penzel signed his instruments mostly with the engraving "J. C. Penzel, sonst C. F. Sattler Leipzig". His overwhelming contribution lies specifically in the area of trombone construction. He gave the wide bore trombone, developed by Sattler, its modern form, so that this instrument, used partially until the present day, but certainly without interruption until the mid-twentieth century, is designated the "Penzel trombone", "Penzel Model" or "Leipzig Model". This terminology was willingly continued by successive generations of instrument manufacturers.

The reputation of the Penzel workshop received its recognition not least by two Leipzig workshops (Schopper and Ullmann), which later designated themselves as successors to Penzel ("Penzels Nachfolger") independently of each other. The signature of the very interesting trombone by Ernst Petzold ("J. C. Penzel's einziger Schüler Ernst Petzold Leipzig") raises some questions. First, it is unclear which Petzold is intended (Carl Ernst Petzold (1834-1867) or Ernst Otto Petzold (1849-1875), both from Markneukirchen); second it would appear that Penzel, with the exception of Petzold, did not train any further instrument makers.

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:39 pm

Once again thanks! And indeed, this is not making it easier... It's a pity really, I'd love to know more about this trombone. I do get it that any successor could call himself "J.C. Penzel's Nachfolger", but there's a definite lack of " 's " on the engraving.

Concerning dating: anywhere between 1870's and 1948? Any way to narrow it down?

Thanks again, Edward! If there's more information in the catalogue, I'd love to learn from it! I'm not fluent in German, but I'm able to understand it

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:14 pm

I'm still inclined to opt for the 1870s. I don't think that either Hellmann, Schopper or Ullmann would have left their instruments with the rather indistinguishable mark on this particular instrument, so I think it predates those workshops, but postdates Penzel.

I also attach some photos of instruments by these makers for the purpose of comparison. The genuine Penzel trombone carries a splendid engraving: "J. C. Penzel, sonst C. F. Sattler Leipzig".

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:33 pm

Thanks once more! Beautiful trombones

The engraving of "J.C. Penzel" is almost an exact copy of the one the alto trombone that Vintage88H posted (here again attached). Slightly different oak leaves though and a completely different Leipzig.

Can the use of different materials tell something about age? This trombone looks to be almost completely made out of brass, where some pictures that you attached show trombones that are made out of two materials: brass and nickel(?).

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:34 pm

Here is an image of a Schopper trombone, which clearly states "R. Schopper/früher bei/J. C. Penzel/Leipzig" ("R. Schopper/earlier with/J. C. Penzel/Leipzig").

Rather less discernible is this image of an Ullmann trombone, which states on the engraving "Penzels Nachf./Oskar Ullmann/Leipzig".

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:42 pm

Quote from: Bart on Mar 06, 2012, 01:33PMCan the use of different materials tell something about age? This trombone looks to be almost completely made out of brass, where some pictures that you attached show trombones that are made out of two materials: brass and nickel(?).

I don't think materials really tell us much in this instance. Makers usually offered instrument made out of ordinary brass (Messing) and gold brass (Goldmessing). Most of my German trombones are in gold brass entirely, though they don't all have a bell garland (only the alto does) either, even though that was typical of trombones from Saxony, since makers offered instruments with or without the garland. Outside of Saxony, it was not usual to manufacture or use trombones with the bell garland. Those from the Rhineland, for example, bear none. The Saxon bell garland could also be quite narrow or quite wide, even extending to almost the entire bell flare. There's just no telling, as these instruments were always made to order in small workshops, not mass produced as brass instruments later were in Elkhart, Indiana. Most small German workshops still run along much the same lines even today.

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:53 pm

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Mar 06, 2012, 01:42PMI don't think materials really tell us much in this instance.Just grasping at straws here, I guess... It is nice to know though that it's probably specially fabricated

Are there any images of those workshops? Sorry to bother you with all the questions. Just intrigued by this instrument!

But already many thanks for your time and elaborate explanations!

I also sent an e-mail to the Museum of musical instruments in Markneukirchen. If I ever get a reply, I'll make sure to share it with you all

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:18 am

Your best bet would be to try to obtain a copy of Die deutsche Posaune: ein Leipziger Welterfolg, the exhibition catalogue from the special exhibit at the Grassi Museum in Leipzig last year, which the Verein für mitteldeutsche Posaunengeschichte organised last year. There is plenty of information on makers such as Heckel, Kruspe, Piering, Sattler, Penzel, Schopper, Ullmann, etc. It's not particularly easy to find, but I have spotted it at Buchhandel.de and Lehmanns Media.

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:44 am

For those interested, I've asked around and gathered some more insights. This is probably the most interesting theory:

QuoteThe Penzel workshop closed not in 1880 and was continuing 1889 by Schopper. The period between may be the time under Penzels widow, an may be the time with your signature.

Here this subject in German:

Was die Firma "J. C. Penzel, Nachf. C. F. Sattler" betrifft, so kann ich nur aus der Erinnerung schreiben, da ich meine Unterlagen nicht hier habe. Demnach war die Firma sicher nicht 1880 erloschen, wie ich schrieb, sondern muss unter der Witwe oder Schwiegertochter fortgefuehrt worden sein bis Schopper diese 1889 uebernahm. Die Signatur, die Sie mitteilen, "J.C. Penzel/ Nachfolger/ Leipziger" scheint die Bemuehungen zu reflektieren, dass man versuchte, die Sattler-Penzel-Posaunen als Leipziger Posaunen zu vermarkten, um sich von den in Markneukirchen und anderswo produzierten Instrumente als "echt Leipziger" abzugrenzen."
Does anyone have an indication of the prize of a trombone in the late 19th century? Or what it could be compared to nowadays?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun May 19, 2013 2:35 pm

Quote from: Bart on Mar 01, 2012, 11:50AMSince there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum, I want to ask if anyone knows anything about this trombone. I've googled already, but there's not a lot to be found.

I bought this trombone mainly for decoration. Nonetheless, I'm curious if it's an original Penzel and if I could somehow tell for sure. The engraving reads "J.C. Penzel - Nachfolger - Leipzig".

It has a dent in the bell and the slide is not in great shape.

Can anyone tell me something or give suggestions to find more information? And any idea about the age?

Thanks in advance!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun May 19, 2013 2:37 pm

Helle, do You want to sell it, I'm interested.
Guido

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Fri May 19, 2017 12:09 pm

Reviving this old topic because this other Penzel trombone just came up on eBay

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/332225115364

It has the same enigmatic ''J.C. Penzel's Nachf.'' engraving. This one seems to have a serial number included in the engraving. It also has TIS, no water key. Looks like a different engraving technique was used (no lines, only dots).

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Sat May 20, 2017 1:03 am

Nice trombone! Though I doubt anyone would pay that amount of money for it.

Still the engraving is different. It reads clearly "J.C. Penzel's Nachf.", but mine only reads "J.C. Penzel" and below that "Nachfolger". It's missing the "'s" which makes me wonder if it was "J.C. Penzel's Nachfolger" or if it was meant as "J.C. Penzel, the Nachfolger". I guess we'll never know

Thanks for bringing this trombone to my attention!

ttf_Bart · Post by **ttf_Bart** » Sat May 20, 2017 1:03 am

Nice trombone! Though I doubt anyone would pay that amount of money for it.

Still the engraving is different. It reads clearly "J.C. Penzel's Nachf.", but mine only reads "J.C. Penzel" and below that "Nachfolger". It's missing the "'s" which makes me wonder if it was "J.C. Penzel's Nachfolger" or if it was meant as "J.C. Penzel, the Nachfolger". I guess we'll never know

Thanks for bringing this trombone to my attention!