Quote from: revoltingmexican on Apr 01, 2010, 09:57PMThere's a whole webpage dedicated to alto trombone stuff online.I think I know the page you're talking about, but I don't recall some of the things you mention. Maybe it's a different website. Would you care to supply a link?
QuoteThere's a link in there to an article about "when is an alto an alto" and so forth, and another link to some british trombone society. Both of these have several articles where people claim that Eb alto trombones never existed and everything written for trombone was intended for a Bb instrument.The article "When is an Alto Trombone an Alto Trombone..." is my baby, and there shouldn't be a link to it since it's only been published on paper.
On the British Trombone Society webpage you'll find Ken Shifrin's dissertation, which goes in a different direction, or rather in several different directions, altogether.
My article, by the way, does not claim that the E-flat alto never existed. Rather that the alto trombone was never as wide-spread and widely used as is commonly thought today, and that much of what is today considered part of the alto trombone repertoire was actually written for tenor trombone.
Quote The original alto trombone page has another article that tries to refute these claims. He shows a list of all the trombones from the 1500's onwards that exist in museums, and it turns out that nearly a third are alto trombones.If this is what I think it is, you should take another careful look at it, because the author has misinterpreted and misconstrued a lot of things, and obviously does not want to understand what I've written in my article. (Could it be that the ideas expounded in my article pull the rug out from under his doctoral dissertation?)
QuoteOf these altos, almost all are in Eb, and just a few are in D, and there are a couple wierd ones in F. But what is interesting is that when classical tromboning was at its height, almost a third of all trombones were altos, and it was the Bass model that was the rarity.The trouble with this reasoning is that it is based on a list of surviving trombones. However, we have no idea how many instruments have gone lost over the centuries. Judging from the amount of music written for trombone in the 16th through 18th centuries, there were obviously thousands of trombones that did not survive.
Concerning the pitches of the early alto trombone: the only really reliable evidence is to be found in written sources, and until the end of the 18th century, they show the alto trombone to be in D, that is to say, when they don't show it to be in A (but you'll have to read my article to understand that).
As valuable as surviving instruments may be as evidence, they have often been repaired and/or altered over the centuries - if they are even in playable condition - making it difficult, if not impossible, to determine their original pitch. Moreover, the list to which you refer is taken from Trevor Herbert's book The Trombone, and I know that Trevor did not examine all the listed instruments personally, but in many cases relied on published catalogues or other secondardy sources. There is nothing to be said against this in a general history of the trombone, but you can't really use it to prove anything since it doesn't provide information about when, where, and how the instruments were employed. For example, if you take a closer look at the surviving alto trombones, you'll see that many of them are from the second half of the 18th century and were made for, and in many cases are still in the possession of, the Moravian church. That is to say, these are instruments that never came into contact with music of sort written by L. and WA Mozart, J. and M. Haydn, Wagenseil, Albrechtsberger, etc.
Quote I have also read your article on why all of those old concerti were probably for Bb instruments, based on the ornamentation.I assume that you're referring to my short piece in the ITA Journal, which was really just a letter-to-the-editor in reply to an aritcle by Chris Buckholz. If so, I suggest that you get ahold of my article “When is an Alto Trombone an Alto Trombone? When is a Bass Trombone a Bass Trombone? – The Makeup of the Trombone Section in Eighteenth- and Early Nineteenth-Century Orchestras,” Historic Brass Society Journal 17 (2005), pp. 37-79. This is wider in scope and presents many of the actual soruces.
And while you're at it, you may want to take a look at my article on the pitch of early trombones: “The trombone: Changing times, changing slide positions,” Brass Bulletin 36 (1981), pp. 52-63. (It was an early effort, but has held up well.)
QuoteI guess all I have to say is that it is damn hard to feel comfortable playing any of those (aside from the wagenseil, which is almost a baby level piece) concertos on a Bb instrument. If you practice your trills, and use alternate positions, the partials lay a lot nicer on an alto trombone. I'd probably want to agree that perhaps the Mozart was written for alto in D. That might make a little more sense. But to play on a tenor...I've heard people try and the alto always sounds more comfortable, more clear, and more like a baroque piece of music.I have to concede that no evidence survives concerning the size of the trombone played by Thomas Gschlatt in Salzburg. And my hypothesis that he, too, played tenor trombone is clearly indicated to be just that, a hypothesis. The parts written for Gschlatt do indeed lie very high, on average much higher than the Wagenseil and Albrechtsberg concertos.
QuoteThe wagenseil seems to have been made for Eb alto. It'd be difficult to convince me otherwise. The range is perfect for the instrument and the ornaments work easily on alto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnAV-4qrq1A I believe that this guy nails every one, using basic positions.Several years ago, I witnessed a competition for early trombone sponsored by the French ensemble Les Sacqueboutiers. The Wagenseil was the required piece for the final round. Of the five finalists, one played it on alto, the other four on tenor (probably because the edition is in tenor clef). The difference was striking: the fellow who played it on alto had to go through all kinds of acrobatics to produce the trills, while those who played it on tenor simply played the trills with no muss, no fuss.
QuoteI guess I was wondering if the current order of the movements in the serenade are correct? I thought we didn't have a real manuscript left, just copies and such. There really exists an original of this piece?Yes, the original set of parts is preserved in the library of Seitenstetten Monastery in Lower Austria. The annotation by Leopold Mozart that I mentioned earlier is found in Mozart's hand on the solo trombone part. The order of the movements in the modern score, but not in the trombone "concerto" editions, is surely correct.
Quote Even the F. David concerto's original score was lost forever in a fire, and that was only a hundred-ish years ago.True, but the first edition published in Leipzig by Friedrich Kistner shortly after the premiere still exists. And I know of a hand-written copy of this edition from the late 19th century.
QuoteI had asked christian a while back about that third movement and he seemed pretty convinced that it was the one intended for trombone as a finale.Third movement? Which third movement?
QuoteI know he's wierd but we're talking about a guy who really pulled a lot of pieces out of the depths of history back in the 80's. He knows his stuff.Does he? I have my doubts.
Howard
. I read your article and wrote a rebuttal to it for my Eighteenth Century course in grad school. I'm not completely convinced, but your writing was fantastic. Bravo!
). A trombone pitched in A at A-465 becomes Bb at A-440. It's much harder to change the basic tune of the brass tube (as opposed to changing the tension of a bunch of strings), so we redefine the pitch of the instrument.