TromboneChat

Jazz band recently started up at my high school, and one of our songs calls for a cup mute a couple of times. I have a Yamaha Xeno YSL-882GO Professional trigger trombone. Any good mutes to suggest since we don’t have any at our band?

Welcome to the Chat

A Yamaha large bore (or any large bore, for that matter) won't work with a mute designed for a small bore tenor trombone.

In your case I'd look for cheap, and the cheapest ones are usually Humes and Berg Stone Line mute. The "tenor" model is too small, but there are two "bass" models. One is just called Bass and one is Bass Ex Large Bore. The Ex Large Bore (model 199) is too big, but the other one (don't remember the model number) is probably fine.

There are metal mutes by Denis Wick and JoRal, but these are more expensive. Tough to justify on a High School budget.

Other option: get a beanie and fill it with rolled up socks. My jazz trombone major friend said he can’t tell the difference and the intonation is better. I’ve done this on several musicals and performances for bass and tenor trombone, and is my go-to (although I plan on trying a salt shaker mute at some point)

Other things that work: folded towel or heavy cloth over bell, dollar tree colander filled with ____ (towels, crumped up paper, cotton balls, old socks) and cloths-pinned to the bell.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:26 pm Welcome to the Chat

A Yamaha large bore (or any large bore, for that matter) won't work with a mute designed for a small bore tenor trombone.

In your case I'd look for cheap, and the cheapest ones are usually Humes and Berg Stone Line mute. The "tenor" model is too small, but there are two "bass" models. One is just called Bass and one is Bass Ex Large Bore. The Ex Large Bore (model 199) is too big, but the other one (don't remember the model number) is probably fine.

NOT TRUE Bruce. The Humes & Berg 152 Tenor Trombone Cup Mute fits just fine in most large-bore tenor trombones (such as my Conn 88H or Olds O-25). These mutes are affordable (<$40) and have long been the standard cup mutes in "jazz bands." They are readily available at local music stores or on line -
e.g.: https://www.musicarts.com/humes-berg-15 ... id=0008122

For the look and sound of these mutes, see the video:

Bass trombones (not large-bore tenors) do indeed have much larger bell throats, and require special bass trombone mutes - but you don't need one.

By the way, a sock-stuffed beanie is a poor (and ugly) substitute for a real cup mute. Don't do it.
I love my Salt Shaker mute, but it also does not sound like a cup mute. Get the real thing!

HornboneandVocals wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:38 pm Other option: get a beanie and fill it with rolled up socks. My jazz trombone major friend said he can’t tell the difference and the intonation is better. I’ve done this on several musicals and performances for bass and tenor trombone, and is my go-to (although I plan on trying a salt shaker mute at some point)

Are you sure you're not trying to immitate a bucket mute with that setup, and with the salt shaker mute?

That sounds like a pretty terrible cup mute, but I admit I haven't tried it!

The best cup mute I've played is the Ullven cup mute. Absolutely fantastic.

I’m definitely trying to imitate a bucket mute. It works for me, and an all black beanie over my bell looks like one of those neoprene “bucket” mutes from 10 feet away.

I’ve never had any negative comments from colleagues, teachers, directors, or hiring managers regarding it. I have gotten several laughs, however. It’s all in good fun

Mutes are tools, just like anything else we use. You can buy a high quality expensive one like Wick, MorningStar, etc., or you can buy a cheaper one like H&B. How much do you want to spend right now? If you plan to play in college, you might want to invest in a good quality mute.

Like Posaunus said, H&B are standard in a lot of jazz bands, dance bands, musical theater, etc. Sometimes you get a dud H&B, whether it’s a straight, cup, SoloTone, etc. Some people say you can fix them drilling holes, or applying tape, or getting the local priest to bless them. If I played more of these kinds of gigs, I’d invest in an H&B tool chest for each of my horns.

Whether you’re playing a mute made of reinforced cardboard like an H&B, or an aluminum mute, or even a wooden mute, you have to take care of them. Get a mute bag, or use a bag with padding that will protect them. It’s discouraging to spend $100 on a mute, only to pick it up to play and find a dent or a crack. Not the end of the world, but it can be avoided with care.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:26 pm
In your case I'd look for cheap, and the cheapest ones are usually Humes and Berg Stone Line mute. The "tenor" model is too small, but there are two "bass" models.

I like how the H&B mutes sound (well, sometimes you need to put a couple of holes in them), but for my bass, it's WAY too heavy. If you can handle the large H&B fiber mute on a bass trombone, you're a better man than I.

There are metal mutes by Denis Wick and JoRal, but these are more expensive. Tough to justify on a High School budget.

True, but the Wick mute isn't THAT expensive, and at least on my horn it really handles the entire range well without bizarre intonation issues. And it may be cheaper to go in that direction than buying first one mute and then another, when the first one doesn't work for you (don't ask me how I know this).

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 5:08 pm I love my Salt Shaker mute, but it also does not sound like a cup mute. Get the real thing!

I love mine as well, and it does make a perfectly acceptable bucket mute. But I can't imagine how to make it sound like a cup mute -- and I've never got a response to queries here from anyone who's done that.

The Wick bass cup mute is unwieldy (though not nearly as much as the large H&B mute), but it's light, works well, and plays in tune for anything you'll need it for. Also, it's easy to pack because you can take it apart.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 5:00 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 5:08 pm I love my Salt Shaker mute, but it also does not sound like a cup mute. Get the real thing!

I love mine as well, and it does make a perfectly acceptable bucket mute. But I can't imagine how to make it sound like a cup mute -- and I've never got a response to queries here from anyone who's done that.

The Wick bass cup mute is unwieldy (though not nearly as much as the large H&B mute), but it's light, works well, and plays in tune for anything you'll need it for. Also, it's easy to pack because you can take it apart.

Yup, the Salt Shaker is great - and versatile. Fun to try various configurations, and not a bad bucket mute substitute. Very light and convenient! It'll never sound like a cup mute.

I think HornboneandVocals was confused when he suggested using a sock-stuffed "beanie" as a substitute cup mute - he admitted he was trying to simulate a bucket mute. For my bass trombone, I also successfully use a Denis Wick cup mute. Fairly light weight, adjustable, sounds fine.

OP is looking for a large bore tenor mute. All this discussion of bass mutes is clouding the issue. Still, I do like my Wick metal mute for tenor. It did cost almost twice as much as the StoneLine. Again, for a High Schooler money is not as easy to get as for us adults out working for it.

I'm curious about some of the newer plastic mutes out there and how they compare to the StoneLine or how good they would be for the OP's use. I never liked the Bach plastic cup; it always sounded "cheap".

Also for the OP: a very useful mute for Big Band is a plunger. If you learn how to use it you can actually make it sound like a bucket as well as for the Wa-Wa sounds we always associated with it. Pick one up at the Dollar Store. Hand the stick back to the clerk saying "I don't use that" and watch the expression. Dollar store plungers often come in nicer colors than the plain brick red ones you find at the hardware store. And they are REALLY cheap. Only downside is you can't use a plunger and the F valve at the same time (without some inventive modifications).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 5:19 pm OP is looking for a large bore tenor mute. All this discussion of bass mutes is clouding the issue.

I was confused by the 882 reference. My mistake. In that case, I think the H&B is a good choice (modulo maybe being willing to "tune" it a bit for low range intonation).

I may have misinterpreted some of the comments about possibly using a tenor cup on a bass, but if you plan to use the same cup on tenor and bass or wish to easily adjust the depth of the mute in your bell, the adapters linked below may be useful.

https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-set ... bone-mutes

I'll throw out another option - I like the Soulo Cup Mute. Lightweight, and sounds much like the H&B and other older models. Plays well in tune, and is well made. Also plays into low range fairly well - an issue with a lot of cups.

Jim Scott

This is the weirdest thread. In some of the posts the writer even admits that it is about cup mutes, mentions the confusion others had in suggesting off topic mutes, and then they go on to suggest more mutes that aren't cup mutes.

OP, for serious - check out the Ullven cup mutes. They are the best, and the "soft" straight mute portion inside is an added bonus. The Lindberg version of the Ullven is another option, purpose home for large bore, which is an incredible cup mute for either big band or classical (it has the best sound I've ever heard in a cup mute), and it also triples as a straight mute and "soft" straight mute. It replaced nearly all my mutes.

That said, nothing will give you the stonelined cup sound other than a stonelined mute, if that's what the group or the music calls for.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:04 pm This is the weirdest thread. In some of the posts the writer even admits that it is about cup mutes, mentions the confusion others had in suggesting off topic mutes, and then they go on to suggest more mutes that aren't cup mutes.

OP, for serious - check out the Ullven cup mutes. They are the best, and the "soft" straight mute portion inside is an added bonus. The Lindberg version of the Ullven is another option, purpose home for large bore, which is an incredible cup mute for either big band or classical (it has the best sound I've ever heard in a cup mute), and it also triples as a straight mute and "soft" straight mute. It replaced nearly all my mutes.

That said, nothing will give you the stonelined cup sound other than a stonelined mute, if that's what the group or the music calls for.

I have a slightly modified Lindberg version triple-play plate/cup for sale if interested:
viewtopic.php?t=33216

I don't see why a ninth-grader in a jazz band (first time?) should get anything other than a stonelined H&B. Wait on the fancy ones until you know whether jazz band is your thing, and until you have a stronger sound concept.
Mutes get broken in high school, anyway.

Yeah I would definitely start there ^

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:37 pm I don't see why a ninth-grader in a jazz band (first time?) should get anything other than a stonelined H&B. Wait on the fancy ones until you know whether jazz band is your thing, and until you have a stronger sound concept.
Mutes get broken in high school, anyway.

This. And as far as which, the 152 tenor cup (and 154 Mic-a-Mute) is probably too small for a Xeno. I'd get the 171 (small bass) and file the corks to however far out you want the lip from the bell.

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:50 pm

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:37 pm I don't see why a ninth-grader in a jazz band (first time?) should get anything other than a stonelined H&B.

... the 152 tenor cup (and 154 Mic-a-Mute) is probably too small for a Xeno. I'd get the 171 (small bass) and file the corks to however far out you want the lip from the bell.

I believe the Yamaha Xeno YSL-882GO is a large-bore (0.547") tenor trombone with F-attachment. I would be surprised if its bell throat is too large for a Humes & Berg 152 tenor trombone cup mute and thus requires a bass trombone cup mute - but I don't have a Xeno to test it.

My recommendation to the (9th grade) OP remains - purchase a (commonly available and affordable) H & B "Stonelined" cup mute for your high school jazz band. Get the mute model that fits the trombone you'll be using. Ignore the rest of the diversions and distractions in this thread (including mine!).

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 4:48 pm I believe the Yamaha Xeno YSL-882GO is a large-bore (0.547") tenor trombone with F-attachment. I would be surprised if its bell throat is too large for a Humes & Berg 152 tenor trombone cup mute and thus requires a bass trombone cup mute - but I don't have a Xeno to test it.

The H&B 152 does technically fit in a large bore trombone, but because the bell throat is larger the cup sits very close to the bell so you're stuck with a tight cup sound, which is not the standard H&B big band cup sound. You'd need to either install thicker corks or buy the 171 to get the proper fit and sound.

H&B calls the 171 a "small bass" mute, but it's really just a large tenor mute, too small for most modern bass trombones.

NeoNao wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 2:57 pm Jazz band recently started up at my high school, and one of our songs calls for a cup mute a couple of times. I have a Yamaha Xeno YSL-882GO Professional trigger trombone. Any good mutes to suggest since we don’t have any at our band?

OP, I would first see if your school has a small bore trombone for you to use in the jazz band (unless you're playing 4th, in which case your 882GO would be a better fit). If they do, then get a Humes & Berg 152 cup mute. If they don't or you'd rather use your 882GO, I would personally get a Denis Wick 5529 adjustable cup mute, which will work great in both jazz band and concert band.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 4:48 pm My recommendation to the (9th grade) OP remains - purchase a (commonly available and affordable) H & B "Stonelined" cup mute for your high school jazz band. Get the mute model that fits the trombone you'll be using. Ignore the rest of the diversions and distractions in this thread (including mine!).

+1 on this.

Also, if OP continues to play into adulthood, at some point s/he will need a fiber cup mute. Either they'll be playing with a big band where everyone else in the section uses a fiber cup, or they'll be playing for a conductor who has the fiber cup mute sound in their ear, and won't be satisfied with anything else.

Or it could be both. I played in a community orchestra where we were all using Jo-Ral metal cups and the MD was on us in rehearsal about a cup-muted passage for a pops concert. (Mostly about it not being 'muted enough', whatever that means.) It turned we all had stone-lined cups appropriate to our instruments. We brought them to the concert and used them. After the concert he came to us and said, "I'm not sure what you changed, but thank you all." The principal said, "We changed to fiber cup mutes from metal." The MD said, "Oh. Like a clamp mute vs. a slide-on mute for strings. I see."