TromboneChat

This has been mentioned many times but to just update me, what is the difference between a Shires Q trombone and a non Q trombone. I have heard so many variations. What is the truth please. Thank you.

Q trombones are made from Shires components, based on Shires specifications, however the are assembled overseas, and then shipped back to Eastman to be distributed domestically. They are compatible with custom Shires parts, and can be interchanged (with occasional adjustments needed due to manufacturing tolerances and variances). They are available in Gold and Yellow Brass bell configurations, and with standard Rotor or Axial flow valve setups. There is also an Alessi model based off of his specific horn preferences.

Custom parts are made and assembled in the USA in Massachusetts, and are therefore more costly, and usually custom fit to the player before purchasing, though many parts are available through distributors, and used classified ads.

Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:45 pm Q trombones are made from Shires components, based on Shires specifications, however the are assembled overseas, and then shipped back to Eastman to be distributed domestically.

I think there is some question about the validity of this statement presently, which is probably the root of what OP is asking about. I personally do not know one way or the other, at the moment.

I was at the factory in Beijing two weeks ago, so have some knowledge! At some stage I might do a full post with photos etc.

Shires Q now are all made from scratch and completely put together in the Eastman factory in Beijing. As for final quality control I am less certain. However there is constant back and forth between the Beijing factory and Boston in terms of Shires people going to Beijing and Eastman employees going to Boston Shires for training, product control etc. They are 100% Shires designs. At the start certain components were made in Boston but now that the training/tooling up is done the entire trombone is made in Beijing.

Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:45 pm Q trombones are made from Shires components, based on Shires specifications, however the are assembled overseas, and then shipped back to Eastman to be distributed domestically. They are compatible with custom Shires parts, and can be interchanged (with occasional adjustments needed due to manufacturing tolerances and variances). They are available in Gold and Yellow Brass bell configurations, and with standard Rotor or Axial flow valve setups. There is also an Alessi model based off of his specific horn preferences.

Custom parts are made and assembled in the USA in Massachusetts, and are therefore more costly, and usually custom fit to the player before purchasing, though many parts are available through distributors, and used classified ads.

As mentioned above, Q series are entirely made and assembled by Eastman at their factory in China based on Shires designs.

Custom series are assembled in Holliston, MA, but are increasingly using imported parts from the Eastman factory including valve section tubing, slide crooks, handslide tubes, and axial valves.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 1:26 pm

Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:45 pm Q trombones are made from Shires components, based on Shires specifications, however the are assembled overseas, and then shipped back to Eastman to be distributed domestically.

I think there is some question about the validity of this statement presently, which is probably the root of what OP is asking about. I personally do not know one way or the other, at the moment.

This is partially accurate. Shires Q components are made fully by Eastman and are distributed in North America through Eastman Pomona. Many of the bent parts in these components are fabricated by Eastman. Eastman is more advanced in some areas of production than we are in Holliston, specifically in mass production of bent parts. Machined parts are made in the Holliston machine shop, and sent to China. We have far fewer Q's that come through Holliston. There are parts of the Customs that are from our Eastman factory. Axial valve sections have always been tricky to make in Holliston. Eastman is better at it. The assembly happens at Eastman. Final assembly, buffing, lacquer and final QC are done in Holliston. We are in constant communication with the Eastman factory and are involved in their production. All the Eastman companies work with each other and make parts for each other, and our work force here in Holliston is around 30. Our machine shop is 3 people. They make the machined parts for Shires Customs and Q's, all Rotax valves, machined parts for Willson, body drilling and other small machined parts for Haynes flutes. Our buffing department does buffing work for Haynes from time to time, our shipping department is the North American distribution center for Willson Band Instruments. A Willson showroom in Holliston is something to look forward to.

So, what is different from a Q series slide vs TW47? What about Q series leadpipes vs custom leadpipes? Is it just who is manufacturing the parts or is there a difference in the metals used?

Q series leadpipes are manufactured at Eastman. They only have mandrels for the Q series sizes. Custom series are drawn and made in Holliston. The tubes for a TW47 are for the most part, drawn here, chrome plated by a MA company, built, buffed, lacquered and finaled here. The specs are the same, but a TW47 is built by a Shires craftsperson, and finaled by a Shires craftsperson. The same one who works on all our artists personal slides, because it's just one person. Raw materials are locally sourced to both factories, any variances would be due to the raw material supplier.

Pretty much everything JK said. Only thing is that while Q and Eastman horns share the same factory certain parts are not interchangeable between the 2. Q's can interchange with Shires Custom parts but not Eastman.

Finally QC happens stateside with Q's.

Sounds like the Shires/Eastman partnership is well-managed, and doing well to control and maintain quality. Congratulations to all!

JKBone85 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 6:44 am Axial valve sections have always been tricky to make in Holliston. Eastman is better at it. The assembly happens at Eastman. Final assembly, buffing, lacquer and final QC are done in Holliston.

Custom Axial sections are built at Eastman?

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:59 pm

JKBone85 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 6:44 am Axial valve sections have always been tricky to make in Holliston. Eastman is better at it. The assembly happens at Eastman. Final assembly, buffing, lacquer and final QC are done in Holliston.

Custom Axial sections are built at Eastman?

That is nuts right?!?

Is it any nuttier than Bach buying valves from Instrument Innovations, Hagmann, and Meinl-Schmidt?

Uh... Yes

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:55 am

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:59 pm

Custom Axial sections are built at Eastman?

That is nuts right?!?

It's pretty standard in any industry to buy parts from outside if you can't do them as well and as efficient as your supplier. Is it any different in the music industry?

Can Eastman start making the slides too? The slides that have been coming out of Boston recently have felt horrible.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 12:05 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:55 am
That is nuts right?!?

It's pretty standard in any industry to buy parts from outside if you can't do them as well and as efficient as your supplier. Is it any different in the music industry?

The nuts part is that they can’t make them better.. but still charge high dollar for them. The fact they lost the ability to make them at a high level at some point?

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:34 pm Can Eastman start making the slides too? The slides that have been coming out of Boston recently have felt horrible.

Doesn’t this make you question what is being made where?

I am curious and a bit worried now. How is the overall quality of Shires recently? Some of my friends want to buy Shires horns (they are viewed highly in Thailand) but I have heard more and more mediocre or even downright bad reviews about them, not only from here.

The relationship between Eastman and Shires predates the buyout. Shires was teaching Eastman how to make better trombones. When Shires ran into financial trouble Eastman bought them out.

Eastman has a number of prestigious instrument makers. They also own Haynes Flutes. In both cases, they let the "daughter" firm make the high end parts and do final assembly. Where appropriate the parent company makes some parts. The local firm does any testing and tweaking as necessary.

A wrinkle in this relationship came about when Steve Shires left to found another shop (Steve's Horns). Steve used to be the liaison between Massachusetts and China making sure things were kept on an even keel. I don't know who does this any more (if anybody).

Given the way China works, I doubt anybody would conscientiously change any of the technology set up between Shires and Eastman during Steve's tenure at Shires, but if there is anything that does need tweaking (and there always is) I don't know if there is anybody to train the Chinese.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:28 am A wrinkle in this relationship came about when Steve Shires left to found another shop (Steve's Horns). Steve used to be the liaison between Massachusetts and China making sure things were kept on an even keel. I don't know who does this any more (if anybody).

Given the way China works, I doubt anybody would conscientiously change any of the technology set up between Shires and Eastman during Steve's tenure at Shires, but if there is anything that does need tweaking (and there always is) I don't know if there is anybody to train the Chinese.

I've heard from three distinct sources (all in a position to know) that Eastman's Chinese factory and Hopedale work together closely, with lots of visits in both directions. I've also heard that the technology transfer isn't unidirectional: the Hopedale folks have learned from and acquired equipment (jigs and fixtures) from the Chinese. (This is apparently also true of Haynes flutes and Backun clarinets and will be true of Willson.)

As to axial flow valves being made in China and finished in Hopedale, everything I've read about their manufacture says that they are very fiddly things. Taking that to be true, I find it easy to believe that the Chinese are making them better than Hopedale. Higher volumes means more opportunity to practice and learn, and lower labor costs mean it's practical to spend more time on valves destined for Hopedale.

Multinational manufacturers make components where they get the most cost-effective production. If you purchased a recent GM with a six-speed automatic it has a Korean transmission. If it's mated to a 1.2L turbocharged 3, the engine came from Mexico. The wiring harness almost certainly came from Mexico. God only knows where the body panels came from. Final assembly might have been done here in the US, but the components came from all over the globe.

Based on my experience in the past working at Shires and familiarity with their terminology, "final assembly" refers to oiling and installing the valve into the casing, lapping the valve slide, and possible minor fit adjustments. I take JKBone85's comment to mean that the valve casing, braces, valve tubing, F tuning slide, etc are fit and soldered at Eastman using entirely Eastman-made components, and then lacquered and adjusted in Holliston.

If this is, in fact, the case then what is essentially a Q valve section is being sold as "Custom," while marketing materials state that "All S.E. Shires components are handcrafted in our factory using traditional techniques." If my understanding is correct, it seems somewhat disingenuous. "Our factory," to me, implies the Holliston location.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is written, though.

In any case, I have no problem with utilizing outside sources of materials and components to make production more efficient. It is the potential misrepresentation of things that I find questionable.

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 5:55 pm If this is, in fact, the case then what is essentially a Q valve section is being sold as "Custom," while marketing materials state that "All S.E. Shires components are handcrafted in our factory using traditional techniques." If my understanding is correct, it seems somewhat disingenuous. "Our factory," to me, implies the Holliston location.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is written, though.

In any case, I have no problem with utilizing outside sources of materials and components to make production more efficient. It is the potential misrepresentation of things that I find questionable.

If it's made to Shires' design in an Eastman plant and all the final fitment is done in Hopedale, is it a Q valve? (That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.)

I see your point about advertising misrepresentation, but how would you feel if they'd outsourced production to your shop, or Meinl-Schmidt? What if they kept it in-house and had Haynes doing some of the work? Conn-Selmer uses Instrument Innovations axial flow valve (rebranded as the Infinity valve but we know what they are.) Is calling an Instrument Innovations valve a Bach Infinity valve also misrepresentation?

Design and execution are the big things. Shires has the designs: the question is, where is the design best executed?

Again, Meinlschmidt, Olsen, Hagmann, etc are established high-end machine shops with a history of great valve making. Eastman? Not anywhere in the same universe.

Some people talking like all they do is tour instrument makers shops, like they're top shelf players.

Every company outsources some part of the manufacturing process, and anything assembled by people are going to vary in quality no matter the maker.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:14 pm Again, Meinlschmidt, Olsen, Hagmann, etc are established high-end machine shops with a history of great valve making. Eastman? Not anywhere in the same universe.

So, apparently as a consequence, Shires (Eastman) valves are noticeably inferior?
In terms of function, durability, robustness, smooth action, sound quality, ... ?

Blanket answer? Yes.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:09 pm Blanket answer? Yes.

Thanks Aidan.

I think we need to be mindful here of the insinuation that something hand made in Boston by a worker who has been doing it for 10 years is better than than something made in Beijing by a worker who has been doing it for 10 years.

There’s a lot more important variables here than the nationality of the person or factory.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:14 pm Some people talking like all they do is tour instrument makers shops, like they're top shelf players.

Every company outsources some part of the manufacturing process, and anything assembled by people are going to vary in quality no matter the maker.

If I'm reading this thread correctly, the issue isn't that they outsource parts, it's who they outsource them to.

Bleek wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:29 pm I think we need to be mindful here of the insinuation that something hand made in Boston by a worker who has been doing it for 10 years is better than than something made in Beijing by a worker who has been doing it for 10 years.

There’s a lot more important variables here than the nationality of the person or factory.

One of them was working in a boutique shop, one was making valves for intermediate trombones flooding student markets. They are not the same.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:09 pm Blanket answer? Yes.

That's categorically false. Shires Q and Custom are the most consistent instruments for the quality expected at their respective price points.

Understand that Shires Q are similar to the Getzen 3xxx series. They are the same as top of the line horns, but made with the most popular options. If you want more exotic go for Shires Custom or Edwards, but if you want a more generic build the Q could be all you want.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 3:06 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:09 pm Blanket answer? Yes.

That's categorically false. Shires Q and Custom are the most consistent instruments for the quality expected at their respective price points.

Agree to disagree.

I'm tempted to respond to this thread based on my experience with manufacturing of "fussy" parts and assemblies, both domestic and out-sourced, as well as transitioning from small-volume to larger-scale production, but - since I have no direct exposure to these particular components or factories - I'll keep my ink dry.

Interesting dialog, though.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:33 pm If I'm reading this thread correctly, the issue isn't that they outsource parts, it's who they outsource them to.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Brad.

So I work or have worked with most of the valves produced. I think the only ones I haven't used yet are from Bosc, but I hear great things. In reality none of them come perfect, but some have more issues that others. By far the worst are the Oslen valves. Ports aren't at the correct angles, excessive end play at the spindles, just stay away. Then there's a huge block of brands that are all pretty much the same from a quality standpoint. Shires, Wilson, Eastman, Meinls, Hagmann, etc. They are all prone to a little something here and there, but usually relatively minor to dial in.

Again, to be clear I'm not speaking about design, solely the quality of the workmanship. I have a set of Shires Q rotors on my personal horn. Were they perfect out the gate? Absolutely not. Was I able to remedy the issue with minimal effort? 100%. There was a tiny bit of end play (around .001"), which I removed by shortening the casing and lapping the valves. At that point they operate as well and any other valve I have ever used. These were also much older valves, and I have not seen this issue on any of the current horns.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2024 6:40 am So I work or have worked with most of the valves produced. I think the only ones I haven't used yet are from Bosc, but I hear great things. In reality none of them come perfect, but some have more issues that others. By far the worst are the Oslen valves. Ports aren't at the correct angles, excessive end play at the spindles, just stay away. Then there's a huge block of brands that are all pretty much the same from a quality standpoint. Shires, Wilson, Eastman, Meinls, Hagmann, etc. They are all prone to a little something here and there, but usually relatively minor to dial in.

Again, to be clear I'm not speaking about design, solely the quality of the workmanship. I have a set of Shires Q rotors on my personal horn. Were they perfect out the gate? Absolutely not. Was I able to remedy the issue with minimal effort? 100%. There was a tiny bit of end play (around .001"), which I removed by shortening the casing and lapping the valves. At that point they operate as well and any other valve I have ever used. These were also much older valves, and I have not seen this issue on any of the current horns.

Thanks for that insight, Jeff.

I guess the moral is that if you get a new trombone, or a new valve, you may want to be prepared to make a visit to a very good tech (probably not the dude at your local music store) to get the valve "dialed in."

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2024 9:59 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2024 6:40 am So I work or have worked with most of the valves produced. I think the only ones I haven't used yet are from Bosc, but I hear great things. In reality none of them come perfect, but some have more issues that others. By far the worst are the Oslen valves. Ports aren't at the correct angles, excessive end play at the spindles, just stay away. Then there's a huge block of brands that are all pretty much the same from a quality standpoint. Shires, Wilson, Eastman, Meinls, Hagmann, etc. They are all prone to a little something here and there, but usually relatively minor to dial in.

Again, to be clear I'm not speaking about design, solely the quality of the workmanship. I have a set of Shires Q rotors on my personal horn. Were they perfect out the gate? Absolutely not. Was I able to remedy the issue with minimal effort? 100%. There was a tiny bit of end play (around .001"), which I removed by shortening the casing and lapping the valves. At that point they operate as well and any other valve I have ever used. These were also much older valves, and I have not seen this issue on any of the current horns.

Thanks for that insight, Jeff.

I guess the moral is that if you get a new trombone, or a new valve, you may want to be prepared to make a visit to a very good tech (probably not the dude at your local music store) to get the valve "dialed in."

I doubt you would have any of these issues on a finished horn, although I suppose some may slip through. This is solely on individual valves I purchase from the manufacturer for horns I build.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 2:33 pm If I'm reading this thread correctly, the issue isn't that they outsource parts, it's who they outsource them to.

The issue isn't that they outsource parts, it is that they represent themselves as if they are making everything in-house, and that they are charging "Custom" rates for a "Q" component.

From their website/marketing material:
"S.E. Shires fabricates its bells, tubing, and valve sections onsite in its Massachusetts factory to exacting standards."

"All S.E. Shires components are handcrafted in our factory using traditional techniques."

"S.E. Shires chooses to produce all of our valves in house."

"Handcrafted in our Holliston, MA workshop, [our Custom] instruments are tailored to fit your musical desires."

Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:08 pm If it's made to Shires' design in an Eastman plant and all the final fitment is done in Hopedale, is it a Q valve? (That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.)

Yes, it is. That is literally what the Q series line of instruments are: Shires designs built by Eastman and QC'd and adjusted by Eastman US and/or Shires. Just to be clear, it is my understanding that entirely soldered and assembled Axial valve sections are being built for Shires by Eastman - not solely the valve.

Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:08 pm I see your point about advertising misrepresentation, but how would you feel if they'd outsourced production to your shop, or Meinl-Schmidt? What if they kept it in-house and had Haynes doing some of the work? Conn-Selmer uses Instrument Innovations axial flow valve (rebranded as the Infinity valve but we know what they are.) Is calling an Instrument Innovations valve a Bach Infinity valve also misrepresentation?

Design and execution are the big things. Shires has the designs: the question is, where is the design best executed?

I have no problem with outsourcing work and components. Much of the work we do at O'Malley is making parts and components for others. Shires has purchased the freezable material that we use for bending. I have done QC work for Conn-Selmer and been to their Bach factory to work with their engineers. Our shop has made bell mandrels, bells, leadpipe mandrels, and other parts for Bach. Bach is not claiming that they have made those components.

Bach does not claim that they are manufacturing those valves. The Open Flow valves used by Bach say "Meinlschmidt" on the cap. The Infinity Valve materials do not explicitly say that they are made by Olsen, but they also are not explicitly claiming that they are making them in-house.

You are conflating two distinct ideas: outsourcing work for ease/quality/profit margin of producing final product, and outsourcing work while claiming that all of the work is being done in-house.

Shires sure didn't cut any prices when they outsourced any of the parts making .

The last two posts hit the nail on the head. But no one cares because hashtags are cool.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:33 pm Shires sure didn't cut any prices when they outsourced any of the parts making .

I've spent the past couple of years buying/selling/trading Shires parts for my main setup, and in several instances I have either paid extra for parts/sold parts at a loss in order to end up with a build that is fully "Custom" components (including my axial valve section), because I was under the impression that Custom series parts were built under better circumstances and with better-sourced materials (i.e. constructed entirely in Massachusetts). But other than my Colin Williams bell, all other parts of my horn could've been Q parts.

To hear that I could've gotten literally the same result by using Q parts instead of Custom (and saving a decent amount of money along the way) is honestly pretty irritating.