TromboneChat

This is probably addressed to the mouthpiece or embouchure gurus out there. Question involves switching to french horn after playing another instrument. We normally do 3 to 4 songs per service, based on the style of the song I often switch horns from one song to the next. Few songs that I switch during the song from low brass to trumpet for a powerful ending.

Situations:
Starting cold on french horn, no issues
Warm up on french horn, no issues
Start on french horn and switch to any other horn, no issues
Play Trombone or euph then switch to french horn, no issues
Switch from playing trumpet to the french horn and have difficulty adjusting to the mouthpiece the first two measures or so, no matter the octave. No different results using my normal Bach 7 or switching to a Bach 12. Horn is a straight F horn.
Start on trumpet and switch to trombone or euph no problems

Open to all suggestions

I guess I should explain the issue. Problem is I’m hitting notes higher than I want. Went 6 weeks once without needing or playing a French horn, the day I wanted to use it I was using it for first song, first note to play was an E (I need to transpose from chord sheet into concert) First note right on pitch. No warm up. That was practice. Used trumpet and trombone after that in practice. Service time started on horn with no issues. Only happens after I use trumpet immediately proceeding switching to the horn. It is rare that I follow trumpet with horn, but my work-around has been sub trombone for trumpet or follow trumpet with ‘bone or euph depending on the song.

The only real way to iron that out is to practice that order. Certain order switches always come more naturally than others.

Also, get a double horn!

Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:17 pm The only real way to iron that out is to practice that order. Certain order switches always come more naturally than others.

Also, get a double horn!

This above. I used to play French horn and trumpet in a community band. The director tried to get me to play both for a concert as each section needed help. What a nightmare. Like you I had the same problem. The only solution was exactly what common sense says, that is to practice it. I eventually switched to Euphonium as we had none of those, so no way was the director going to have me leave that section of one.

Odds of me getting a double horn are about as good as me living another 100 years. Now a flugelhorn IS on my wish list, just gotta convince the CFO I need to spend money on something that has no ROI!

At least I have free choice of which horn to use when I want. Asked leader several times if he had a preference for certain songs. Always replies just keep up what you’re doing.

There are decent double horns out there for less than a Chinese flugelhorn, it is quite possible if you're patient.

Daughter moved to her own place, her nice Holton double horn is still here…

Besides, French horn is my least favorite horn to play…6 ways to play F#, none are in fully in tune…horn is a wonderful condensate trap…transposing the F horn, when all my other horns are Bb…mechanical linkage valves make some noise. So why do I play it? Love the sounds throughout the range of the horn, and for a few songs it just seems to be the best fit sound wise. Hey, the guitar players switch guitars between songs!

You could always get a Bb single horn, which is a much better instrument than an F single horn anyway. Or use a double and just hold the thumb valve down so it's in Bb.

Guess for next few weeks I’ll just be concentrating on euph with music. Signed up for community Christmas band, along with daughter on French horn and grandson on trumpet, along with 57 other players. What have I done…I haven’t played real sheet music since grandson and I practiced trumpets together with his band music during Covid lockdowns. Director asked if I was bass or treble clef, told him I prefer bass but can use treble if needed. He mentioned treble three times after that. First practice is this Sunday.

In spite of an hour and a half primarily on trumpet Sunday morning, and maybe 15 minutes of low brass, made it through the 2 hour practice Sunday afternoon. Offered trumpet, trombone, or euph when I first signed up. Said he was already loaded with trumpets and trombones, and he would put me on euph. Then he tried to talk me into French horn or tuba. I knew the horn section would be strong, and I’m shakey enough on sight reading I didn’t feel comfortable with the notes below the staff after 3 years. Tuba section was also strong without another one. Turned out I was only euph or baritone that showed up. Surprised myself on sight reading! But we’re all practicing for next weeks practice. Grandson cheated, he played his bass guitar instead of trumpet Sunday morning. He’s been doubling the brass section recently.

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:51 am You could always get a Bb single horn, which is a much better instrument than an F single horn anyway. Or use a double and just hold the thumb valve down so it's in Bb.

They're often reversible so you can string it the other way around so it stands in Bb without holding the lever down.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 5:28 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:51 am You could always get a Bb single horn, which is a much better instrument than an F single horn anyway. Or use a double and just hold the thumb valve down so it's in Bb.

They're often reversible so you can string it the other way around so it stands in Bb without holding the lever down.

Do you happen to know if a Conn 6D is capable of that? I've been meaning to get that done... would make mine much easier to play for me

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 5:56 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 5:28 pm

They're often reversible so you can string it the other way around so it stands in Bb without holding the lever down.

Do you happen to know if a Conn 6D is capable of that? I've been meaning to get that done... would make mine much easier to play for me

I don't know off hand.

Fairly certain they are not, if in doubt snap a pic and post it. The “flippable” stop arms are a more modern addition/design idea.

Looking some of the images of 6D's online, it looks to me like just changing the stop arm wouldn't work; you'd need to reverse the direction of rotation of the valve. I know that's what had to be done when my wife had her 8D reconfigured to stand in Bb.

My two cents quite personal experience:

Do not do this.

You will be not good enough on either instrument.
Mixing trombone an French Horn is not possible, if you want any reasonable level of playing.
I have just had a five years intermission from playing the bass trombone, because I was called for the horn.
Took me more than two months of daily practice to get the bass trombone work again as I want it to.
The horn is a demanding and challenging instrument, and it's really jealous, does not want to share the player with any other instrument. Horn embouchure is a very delicate thing, if you take it seriously.
If you don't, don't make noise in public.

Take this FWIW....

Tooloud wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:28 pm Do not do this.
...
The horn is a demanding and challenging instrument, and it's really jealous, does not want to share the player with any other instrument. Horn embouchure is a very delicate thing, if you take it seriously.
If you don't, don't make noise in public.

Take this FWIW....

But how serious does one need to be to justify picking up an instrument? By this logic, band directors ought never to teach horn players unless they themselves exclusively play horn, in which case we will never have enough young horn players to fill a section.

I agree that the horn is possibly the most jealous of the standard brass instruments, but the idea that one should not play horn at all unless one plays it exclusively is only realistic in the conservatory-to-professional full-time ensemble pipeline. If we lived in a world without good-enough doublers of any instrument, we would live in a world with a lot less music being made.

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:25 am Looking some of the images of 6D's online, it looks to me like just changing the stop arm wouldn't work; you'd need to reverse the direction of rotation of the valve. I know that's what had to be done when my wife had her 8D reconfigured to stand in Bb.

I think you're right. The reversible kind have screw holes on both sides of the stop arm so you can move the lever over to the other side, which reverses the rotation. For the 6D, I don't think it would be too difficult to modify the lever and install ball and socket linkage instead of string. That would also reverse the direction of rotation.

Tooloud wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:28 pm
Mixing trombone an French Horn is not possible, if you want any reasonable level of playing.

I guess you haven't heard Finetales play.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:37 pm

Tooloud wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:28 pm
Mixing trombone an French Horn is not possible, if you want any reasonable level of playing.

I guess you haven't heard Finetales play.

We can learn to do lots of strange things. Just spend time and be smart and serious about it and you might reach your dreams. It isn't easy to double different brass but sure it is possible to learn. It takes a lot of time to be good at ONE instrument. If you want to learn another instrument equally well you probably need to work equally hard on that one. I double alto, tenor and bass trombone and have added a bit of trumpet, cornet, flugelhorn, french horn and tuba too. I can not play them equally well but it's what to expect. I've played trombone almost 50 years and have practiced daily for most of those years. On trumpet and the other instruments I have just started. If I invest in them I will learn, but I do not expect to be equally good. I haven't got that much time, but that doesn't stop me. Why would it?

/Tom

I have an Osmun french horn mouthpiece that I had Matt Frost make a rim for that is basically a clone of the trumpet rim that I use. On the Bb side, I can pick it up basically immediately and play it. I also admittedly can't ready F very well, but if you put something in C or Bb in front of me it's no problem. I'm not going to win any symphony auditions on it. Ever. But I have a pretty reasonable tone on it and with a week of practice would feel comfortable taking a gig if someone really wanted me to play it rather than trombone and also was able and willing to provide me with a Bb or C part. That scenario is also admittedly... let's say unlikely.

At some point I plan on making overdubs like Finetails does. Now that I'm mostly moved into my new house I have my practice room setup. I'm actually working on getting some arrangements ready to do just that. Probably won't come to fruition for awhile but one of these days...

My point is: You can not expect to equally good on both instruments simultaneously. During my five years contract on french horn I had to learn that, so I quickly gave up trombone, for it was impossble to reach the level that was expected, if I would not totally commit to playing the horn like the collegues had done from childhood on, while I was de facto amateur. I loved to play the horn in my leisure time, but I had studied trombone. To be called to play horn in my older years was as flattering as it was difficult.
The last concert I did on horn was Mendelsohns "Elias": every ten measures or so the key of the noted horn changed: so you read: Horn in E, ten measure after: Horn in D, then some notes Horn in F, after 5 measures of break: Horn in Eb and so on... If you do not practice such abilities on a daily basis you will be completly lost - and in the end ruin the performance, ruin the work of others, who are trying to give the audience what they have paid for.
But if you are content to play just to yourself or make some noise nobody cares for, you may do whatever you want.
And I do not know, who or what Finetales is. What have I missed?

Tooloud wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:34 am And I do not know, who or what Finetales is. What have I missed?

viewtopic.php?p=251934#p251934

Trumpet,trombone, and euph are my daily drivers, they all get used just about every Sunday. French horn maybe once a month, not doing anything too complex with it for the most part. Tuba hasn't been out for a couple of years, enjoy it, but the old Conn 20J weighs a ton and most of my playing is standing…and usually no NEED to play it. Few years back swapped places with a tuba guy for fun for a Christmas Brass Choir, I took my tuba and he took a trumpet. Let’s just say my chops held up better.

Currently signed up for a community Christmas band. Didn’t offer to play horn or tuba, I knew horns would be good and I didn’t have time to solidify my low note reading for tuba. Trumpet and trombones he had plenty, so I’m on euphonium. The only one that showed up for practice. Thats the horn I actually feel most comfortable playing with sheet music. My first time reading off of sheet music since Covid lockdowns.