Bass trombone long notes breath issue

[Pasha]

Hi colleagues,

I’m primarily a tenor trombone player, but I occasionally play bass trombone in big bands, and I enjoy it so much that I’ve decided to double. Now, I’ve been given a gig with a symphony orchestra, playing a nature film score that’s full of long, sustained low notes.

My question is: how do professional bass trombonists handle situations like holding a low C for 3 bars at 60 bpm, starting forte and crescendoing to fortissimo?

The entire score is packed with these impossibly long low notes and intense dynamics (mainly forte and fortissimo). I don’t see how circular breathing would work on a low C while maintaining volume.

Even with intense practice and breathing exercises, I might be able to squeeze out one extra quarter note, but not an entire bar or two more.

To add, I don’t experience this kind of difficulty when playing bass trombone in a big band setting—it’s just this crazy score that’s giving me trouble.

Is there a practical solution to this? What do bass trombonists (and tuba players) typically do in these situations?

[tbdana]

First, a three-bar long low C at 60 bpm crescendoing to fortissimo at the end is just crappy writing. Nothing you can do to polish that turd.

So, just sneak breaths where you have to, and try to do it in spots that are unobtrusive, like when some other instrument plays an accent note or flourish. No one will notice. People have to do that all the time. And back off the volume a little. This is a fundamental tone, you don't have to play it very loud to be heard.

Otherwise, maybe you just learn to suck air in from the bottom opening and exhale it out the top opening. Welcome to my Ted Talk.

[2bobone]

"First, a three-bar long low C at 60 bpm crescendoing to fortissimo at the end is just crappy writing. Nothing you can do to polish that turd."

Now that I've stopped laughing, I must say that it couldn't have been better put ! Someone with synthesizer chops must have written that ! Synthesizers don't need to breath, you know ?

[JohnL]

If we can't polish the turd, perhaps we can find a way to at least make it a bit less smelly?

Is the bass trombone alone on those notes?

[hyperbolica]

Bad writing or not, you can't hide behind that excuse. Try using that on the conductor and see what he/she has to say.

When I come across that situation, I fade out, get a big breath, and fade back in. Or in the unlikely situation that thete are more than one bass bone, stagger breathing.

[Pasha]

If we can't polish the turd, perhaps we can find a way to at least make it a bit less smelly?

Is the bass trombone alone on those notes?

Fortunately, most of the time these sections are tutti, unison with tuba and double basses.

[BGuttman]

Reminds me of the tuba part in Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet". In the Apotheosis section the tuba holds a B natural (second line on bass staff) for a full 30 seconds. Punctuated by tympani on each beat and the cellos periodically interrupting with a beautiful short melody. You couldn't be more exposed if you played in your underwear. Many tubists cultivate circular breathing for this type of situation. I found places where the note was behind the cellos and marked in breaths. Used a very soft rearticulation after my breath. I played it on an orchestra telethon and the next day all my tuba playing friends asked me "How did you play that note!". Shared my breath marks with the Merrimack Valley tuba player when that orchestra did the piece.

[tbdana]

Bad writing or not, you can't hide behind that excuse. Try using that on the conductor and see what he/she has to say.

When I come across that situation, I fade out, get a big breath, and fade back in. Or in the unlikely situation that thete are more than one bass bone, stagger breathing.

I’m not sure what you mean by “hide behind that excuse.” What do you mean? The fact is that it’s impossible to play. Any decent conductor would realize that and would understand that some sort of workaround has to be employed.

And your second paragraph, which sounds a lot like hiding behind that excuse as I understand your comment, is precisely what I recommended he do. So I’m not really seeing the disagreement here. Confused.

[Kbiggs]

Breathe where you need.
Do your best to make it musical, i.e., don’t breath on beat 1.
Work on the breath away from the instrument. Use various tools to help, not simply measure. Work on taking in larger volumes without additional stress/tension, and make more efficient use of air and embouchure when playing.

[JohnL]

Fortunately, most of the time these sections are tutti, unison with tuba and double basses.

I'm just a scrubby amateur, but my approach would be to bring the bass trombone sound more to the fore at the apexes of the crescendos and try to put my sound "inside" the double bass sound the rest of the time. That way, you need to breathe less frequently and it's less noticeable when you do. You might want to suggest the same approach to the tubist.

[hyperbolica]

I’m not sure what you mean by “hide behind that excuse.” What do you mean? The fact is that it’s impossible to play. Any decent conductor would realize that and would understand that some sort of workaround has to be employed.

And your second paragraph, which sounds a lot like hiding behind that excuse as I understand your comment, is precisely what I recommended he do. So I’m not really seeing the disagreement here. Confused.

I just meant that it's one of those things you can think but you can't say it out loud. That stuff shows up all the time. There are plenty of things arrangers write but they don't mean it literally, it's just part of the gig to know what to do when they come up.

[Doug Elliott]

With the part in multiple instruments (that can't really do that much of a crescendo either), I would attack the beginning (only if it needs an attack), stop and wait, then fade in and crescendo the last 3 or 4 beats. That gives the effect of a real crescendo without playing the middle of it at all.

And that's the way it should have been written in the first place if the composer had a brain.

Lots of times you have to create the intended effect without actually playing what's written.

[tbdana]

I love these kinds of threads. This is about playing the horn and playing the music. I love these discussions!

[ghmerrill]

The last gig we played included a vocal of "Beyond the Sea" that's "transcribed and adapted by Myles Collins." He adapted it to include a final four measures, notated as rallentando, where the bass trombone is supposed to play a sustained piano F at the bottom of the staff as a half note tied across three whole notes (so 14 beats). With a hold on the last measure, of course. I judged this not to possess redeeming artistic value, and took a breath for the last 8 beats.

[Pasha]

It’s about the score from Life on Our Planet by Lorne Balfe. The entire bass trombone part is written without any regard for human anatomy.

[Savio]

This writing happens often. We just have to take a sneak breath here and there. Crescendo from f to ff doesn't have much effect. I would start f and go back to mf, breathe when I have to and make a crescendo in the end. What else to do? It reminds me of an organ player I had to play together with. Always on the last note he holds it forever. And look proudly around on the organ pipes before he lifts away his hands and feet. Almost falling off the seat. He could almost have checked his facebook on the last note if he didn't have to use his hands on the organ. Not all understand we have to breathe.

Leif

[ghmerrill]

I don't know how these things (I.e., publishing of music sheet music) are done, but in any other similar publication context there would be one or more editors in charge of reviewing the product to ensure that there weren't any errors or oddities or flat-out howlers in it prior to publishing the final result. And surely any new composition or arrangement goes through some (even minimal) degree of "testing" prior to full release? So how do we end up with stuff like this appearing in widely used editions of pieces. (Not to mention some of the really lengthy "errata" addenda I've seen that are post-publication and often created by people other than the publisher.)

[BGuttman]

Music publishing errors have been around as long as there has been music publishing. Right after World War II, Kalmus got all the plates from Breitkopf and Hartel and just started printing. There were tons of errors that were pointed out over the ensuing decades.

Plus, many composers used arrangers to adapt their works to various ensembles. The abilities of these arrangers varied dramatically. Some were excellent and some absolutely horrible.

With the advent of electronic publishing, today's composers are using synthesized sounds to hear what the piece will sound like. Synthesizers don't know the details of how various instruments are actually constructed and place no limitations on what can go on paper. I've seen too many glissed (portamenti?) from D to G in trombone parts -- something that we have to "fake" to sound even marginally good. The synthesizer doesn't "realize" that the D and G are on different lip partials, and can't be found using any alternate positions (of course, this is easily done on a G Bass Trombone, but not too many of them in use).

[Pasha]

I play a lot in related genres such as film music, variety, and pop. Unfortunately, there’s an entire class of incompetent composers and arrangers in these fields who, it seems, achieved their positions through corruption and faking it long enough. There's no business like show business.
Meanwhile, academic musicians are expected to professionally accept their crappy writing with a poker face.

[ghmerrill]

Music publishing errors have been around as long as there has been music publishing. Right after World War II, Kalmus got all the plates from Breitkopf and Hartel and just started printing. There were tons of errors that were pointed out over the ensuing decades.
...

I get that. And I get the difficulty/time/cost of correcting those things in the older technology. But I remain puzzled by the (not really frequent, but more frequent than you'd expect because in part it NEVER should have appeared) goofy things you see in big band parts. A preponderance of these were written/arranged/played in the early 20th century -- and yet you see these occur with surprising frequency. As you mention, impossible glisses are another example. And, again, these are things that shouldn't have made it any further than the first one or two pre-publication test playings of the arrangement. Maybe the players in that time and genre were just more forgiving about what was on the printed page. And I do wonder if the problem is more pronounced in trombone parts than others.

[ghmerrill]

... there’s an entire class of incompetent composers and arrangers in these fields who, it seems, achieved their positions through corruption and faking it long enough.

I'm curious as to which specific examples you have in mind and what the nature of the corruption was.

[TomInME]

This writing happens often. We just have to take a sneak breath here and there.

Most likely, the composer thought, "I would like to add some trombone color to the celli/double-basses" and then copy-pasted from the string parts.
It's up to us to create the auditory illusion for the audience rather than sound bad trying to play exactly what the composer wrote.

[ghmerrill]

Most likely, the composer thought, "I would like to add some trombone color to the celli/double-basses" and then copy-pasted from the string parts.

I'm not above doing that myself -- fabricating a bass trombone part out of piano and bass guitar parts -- instead of doubling the third.

[Doug Elliott]

It's up to us to create the auditory illusion for the audience rather than sound bad trying to play exactly what the composer wrote.

Exactly. Create the intended effect and make it sound good.
And get your section mates to do the same.

[imsevimse]

Hi colleagues,

I’m primarily a tenor trombone player, but I occasionally play bass trombone in big bands, and I enjoy it so much that I’ve decided to double. Now, I’ve been given a gig with a symphony orchestra, playing a nature film score that’s full of long, sustained low notes.

My question is: how do professional bass trombonists handle situations like holding a low C for 3 bars at 60 bpm, starting forte and crescendoing to fortissimo?

The entire score is packed with these impossibly long low notes and intense dynamics (mainly forte and fortissimo). I don’t see how circular breathing would work on a low C while maintaining volume.

Yes, circular breathing is the solution if you can do it. I've heard it mastered not only in the trigger register but on pedal F so if you spend time you will (might) learn. Personally I would sneak in air. I always include some curcular breathing when I practice.
/Tom

[Pasha]

... there’s an entire class of incompetent composers and arrangers in these fields who, it seems, achieved their positions through corruption and faking it long enough.

I'm curious as to which specific examples you have in mind and what the nature of the corruption was.

I work in the Netherlands, so local names probably won’t mean much to you. As for the nature of corruption, it’s more about personal connections and relationships between so-called composers and producers, conductors, directors, and others. Unfortunately, if you’re good friends with the right people, self-entitlement and ambition are enough to succeed, and you don’t need to be good at your actual job of writing a decent score.

[tbdana]

I'm curious as to which specific examples you have in mind and what the nature of the corruption was.

As for the nature of corruption, it’s more about personal connections and relationships between so-called composers and producers, conductors, directors, and others. Unfortunately, if you’re good friends with the right people, self-entitlement and ambition are enough to succeed, and you don’t need to be good at your actual job of writing a decent score.

My friend, the music business has ALWAYS been one of relationships. Talent is maybe 10% of it. It's not a meritocracy. I think it's wrong to call it corruption, though. It's just the nature of the beast, and it saturates the business. This is the way it is and has been from time immemorial.

[Pasha]

As for the nature of corruption, it’s more about personal connections and relationships between so-called composers and producers, conductors, directors, and others. Unfortunately, if you’re good friends with the right people, self-entitlement and ambition are enough to succeed, and you don’t need to be good at your actual job of writing a decent score.

My friend, the music business has ALWAYS been one of relationships. Talent is maybe 10% of it. It's not a meritocracy. I think it's wrong to call it corruption, though. It's just the nature of the beast, and it saturates the business. This is the way it is and has been from time immemorial.

Yes, sad but true, but in the end, we’re the ones who have to polish the turd.

[ghmerrill]

This is the way it is and has been from time immemorial.

You mean like in the good old days when everyone had to scurry around looking for patronages from the nobility or the church (not necessarily exclusive of one another, of course)?

[psybersonic]

Music publishing errors have been around as long as there has been music publishing. Right after World War II, Kalmus got all the plates from Breitkopf and Hartel and just started printing. There were tons of errors that were pointed out over the ensuing decades.

Plus, many composers used arrangers to adapt their works to various ensembles. The abilities of these arrangers varied dramatically. Some were excellent and some absolutely horrible.

With the advent of electronic publishing, today's composers are using synthesized sounds to hear what the piece will sound like. Synthesizers don't know the details of how various instruments are actually constructed and place no limitations on what can go on paper. I've seen too many glissed (portamenti?) from D to G in trombone parts -- something that we have to "fake" to sound even marginally good. The synthesizer doesn't "realize" that the D and G are on different lip partials, and can't be found using any alternate positions (of course, this is easily done on a G Bass Trombone, but not too many of them in use).

Worth making sure the bone has a G crook as well as Gb then .

[Kbiggs]

It's up to us to create the auditory illusion for the audience rather than sound bad trying to play exactly what the composer wrote.

Exactly. Create the intended effect and make it sound good.
And get your section mates to do the same.

Exactly. It’s kind of like a string-player’s run up to a high note. It might be a quintuplet, a septuplet, a dectuplet, whatever. It’s the sound and effect, not the literal note on the page. At least, that’s how I’ve always played things like this. I breathe when I need to.

I think the one time I got called on it was when I breathed at a point where the conductor wanted the sound to continue. So I marked the part, didn’t breathe there, and the rehearsal continued.

[2bobone]

The tuba player in the NSO [David Bragunier] had an interesting way to deal with the endless sustained note in Tschaikovsky's "Romeo & Juliet". He devised a "packet" of various materials that would fit in the throat of the mouthpiece of his Alexander tuba that provided enough resistance for him to credibly play the entire passage in one breath. I clearly remember his joy upon finding a "shoeshine cloth" that had the perfect combination of resistance and yet allowed just enough air passage to function properly.
When a student at ESM I remember Roger Bobo using circular breathing in such a virtuoso manner as to defy imagination ! Either method worked very well but perhaps better education of the composers who write such ridiculous passages would be in order ?

[BGuttman]

The effect of that 30 second note is very impressive. I remember one time I was playing bass trombone next to our tuba player and we worked out for me to sneak in with the B to allow him to grab a quick breath, then I snuck back out. I can't believe nobody else figured this out. Need to be able to match pitch, though.

[Pasha]

I’m considering learning circular breathing, but I haven’t seen anyone use it at dynamics like forte on low notes

[ghmerrill]

I’m considering learning circular breathing, but I haven’t seen anyone use it at dynamics like forte on low notes

You'll understand why when you try it. It has pretty significant limitations, even for the highly skilled. Particularly on bass trombone, or trombone more generally.

Here's what I think is a good account of the techniques and difficulties and decisions to be faced -- from the perspective of a trombonist:

https://www.musicforbrass.com/articles/ ... ur%20lungs.

[Pasha]

I’m considering learning circular breathing, but I haven’t seen anyone use it at dynamics like forte on low notes

You'll understand why when you try it. It has pretty significant limitations, even for the highly skilled. Particularly on bass trombone, or trombone more generally.

I assume that on low notes, the embouchure is already in a fairly open position, and if I want to play louder while maintaining sound quality, puffing out my cheeks is the last thing I want to do. I don’t see how it’s possible to sustain a good-quality low C played at forte using air from my cheeks alone, even for a fraction of time—it takes too much air.

[Doug Elliott]

Circular breathing is a useful technique, whether it works in some particular extreme situation or not. And it takes a while to learn, just like mezzo-soprano clef for reaing horn parts. It may have limited use, but when you do need it, there it is. Stop making excuses and work on it.

[Pasha]

I’ve tried practicing circular breathing, and it works, but only for notes no lower than Bb at the bottom of the bass staff and not louder than mezzo piano. I can’t play low valve notes with puffed cheeks; for a good quality sound, they require a very focused embouchure.