TromboneChat

(Not sure if this falls under "teaching and learning" or "tangents" please move if I placed this in the wrong spot.)

Alright, so I had the chance to perform at Carnegie Hall and tour NYC for a week this past summer. While visiting the Juilliard bookstore, I picked up "The Art of Practicing: A Guide to Making Music from the Heart" by Madeline Bruser (1997). I've read it a few times at this point and am working on implementing the techniques into my daily practice and routines.

She advocates for fully stretching every day to keep the body limber and thus have less natural tension for when we get to play. This is something I fully agree with. She also states "Health professionals often advise instrumentalists to avoid lifting heavy weights to strengthen their arms, because using the hands to grip heavy objects is antithetical to the delicate muscular control a musician needs." (pg 43 par. 2). Upon initial read this struck me as odd and perhaps personally offensive, given how much I love lifting. Over the past months I've thought about it a lot and experimented in my own practice, and I can't seem to come to a definite conclusion. I may be sore or tight, but if I am regularly lifting/working out and stretching, making sure there is nothing tight in my body, I do not feel any negative effects of lifting.

I wanted to start a conversation on this and see what others have experienced regarding this.

There was one point in my life where working out made me worse, but only because I was spending more time doing that than practicing.

Otherwise, when I am in better shape, everything is better. I stretch every night, and work out 5 days a week when possible. There are plenty of times that I have to draw on that bank, and I'm glad for the work I've put in.

Isn't that the same as playing a contrabass trombone?

Cheers

Stewbones43

I could see how having pumped forearms may affect the flexibility in the fingers that may be detrimental for a pianist or string player. But it's never been an issue for my piano playing.
I find being fit helps trombone playing. Indeed before I got back into training I may have had sore shoulders, back, tendonitis in both forearms. Now I am back to strength, no pain. And I can throw a cricket ball again.
Plenty of health professionals advise regular resistance training for health, longevity and quality of life as we get older. Everyone should be doing it.
I also run and practice yoga.

The only issue I have is trying to play soon after benching. Holding the instrument up is hard!

But nah. Exercise is good. Do some. It pretty much doesn't matter what kind, as long as you keep doing it.

A lot of us are way past the age where any significant hypertrophy is likely to occur.

Injury is still a potential problem, but that applies to trombone playing as well.

HornboneandVocals wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 12:27 pm She also states "Health professionals often advise instrumentalists to avoid lifting heavy weights to strengthen their arms, because using the hands to grip heavy objects is antithetical to the delicate muscular control a musician needs." (pg 43 par. 2).

Anybody can say anything. This may be an example. Exactly what "health professionals" have said this? What research do they cite to support this claim? Does that research look remotely competent? On the face of it, this seems like speculative nonsense -- though I suppose I might be convinced by the right evidence.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:36 am

HornboneandVocals wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 12:27 pm She also states "Health professionals often advise instrumentalists to avoid lifting heavy weights to strengthen their arms, because using the hands to grip heavy objects is antithetical to the delicate muscular control a musician needs." (pg 43 par. 2).

Anybody can say anything. This may be an example. Exactly what "health professionals" have said this? What research do they cite to support this claim? Does that research look remotely competent? On the face of it, this seems like speculative nonsense -- though I suppose I might be convinced by the right evidence.

I thought similar, or perhaps the evidence is outdated, it’s a 1990’s book and a lot has changed as far as health sciences.

HornboneandVocals wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:20 am ... it’s a 1990’s book and a lot has changed as far as health sciences.

True, in particular in the physical therapy area. I've been doing some PT and training lately for a couple of reasons and have heard more than once "Yeah, we used to think that; but more recent study has shown otherwise." They've moved in a much more scientific direction for a bunch of things they used to take a more casual and "common sense" approach to. Also the medical science itself has also progressed substantially.

Any exercise designed with safety in mind done properly is beneficial. Weight lifting builds a strong foundation upon which lesser muscles can rely, reducing their need to provide support and enabling both endurance and development of fine motor skills, such as speed and precision. The focus on coordinating breathing with movement helps us use our lungs more efficiently as well.

Physical therapists vs surgeons…Total knee replacement, out patient. 10 days later 12” of snow fell, I shoveled it off my sidewalk, home therapist was horrified that I shoveled the walk. 8 weeks later other knee replaced, 2 days later 4” of snow. Again I shoveled it. (Hey, I was supposed to be doing laps around the kitchen table hourly, I just happened to have a snow shovel in my hand when I was walking) Therapist asked if I shoveled the walk. Said yes. He said “Don’t tell your surgeon!!” 6 week post surgery visit to surgeon he asked how I was doing. Told him about the snow shoveling, his reply: “That’s great! I have guys that won’t even do that 2 years later!”

During my recovery I used, but not abused my knees. I guess let your body be your guide.

Perhaps surprising to some, but the coordination between what surgeons view as "best practice" and what PTs view as "best practice" suffers from periods of being out of sync. And this can go both ways. If you find one contradicting the other, the best approach is to ask specific questions. Letting your body be your guide can go a long way, but you want to take care in those situations where people with decades of clinical experience know that something that seems good to you may result in disaster, and it's wiser to take it more slowly. I've been in situations where my body was saying "Don't do that!" when in fact I needed to do exactly that in order to progress (knee replacement and shoulder rehab were a couple of examples). But I've also been in situations where I pushed things too quickly because it felt like I could/should, and the results were not good.

It seems like there has been a lot of discussion here in the way past about this topic. Here's a post in favor of lifting:

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 415#p17415

Here's a video that recommends specific exercises for trombonists:

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 985#p21985

Actually my surgeries sort of relate to my playing. Our band always stands, with a few exceptions for pregnancy or injuries. My leg muscles impressed the surgeon, but the condition of my knees before surgery was so painful I had taken to semi sitting on a stool. Usually at least an hour and a half of standing time between practice and the service. Within 8 weeks after second surgery standing with ease again. (Side note on snow removal. My lane is a tenth of a mile long. Sent grandson out to use big snow blower on the front of on of our tractors to clear the lane. I knew my limitations.)

Previously had rotator damage on right shoulder. Two ligaments damaged, one completely separated. After surgery, I was to be in a sling for 6 weeks, figured that would be a good time to send horn out for some dent removal and a fresh lacquer job. 10 days after surgery nurse took the staples out, then surgeon came in. Held his right hand out and I shook it. He told me to do that again, so I did. He told me I could lose the sling. Therapy that afternoon showed up without sling. Therapist asked where it was, told his surgeon said I didn’t need it. He didn’t believe me and called the surgeon. I got an apology. Always pushed some at therapy, supposed to do ten whatever, I’d do 15. 10 minutes assigned on upper cycle I’d do 20. I was driving my manual transmission truck and feeding livestock 2 weeks after surgery. Had to borrow a trombone, playing again after 2 months. I’m used to lifting 40 and 50 pound items, so my arms are in good condition. Little exercise never hurt my playing any instrument. Big fingers my only problem, but valve or slide instruments and drums are no problem. (I know, drums are not an instrument) Lack of dexterity rules keyboards and guitars out. Bottom line for me, stay in shape and I’ll be good for years to come. Runs in the family, my grandfather replaces a shingle roof on his own in his 80s. In his 90s he did slow down, he traded his ten speed bike in on a small Honda motorcycle.

Body building, done right, is beneficial for pretty much everyone, even if the goal is just to be healthier and not to bulk up. For detrimental effects, I can see the possibility that if someone lifts weights badly in ways that are not natural and/or lead to injuries - yeah, that would be detrimental to all sorts of things including playing an instrument.

Knowing what I know now (that I did not know earlier in life) I think that picking the right exercises and really focusing on full range of motion with muscles properly under loads is BETTER than traditional stretching for improving flexibility.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 6:14 pm Knowing what I know now (that I did not know earlier in life) ...

Welcome to the club.

Have you seen this: Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training by Mark Rippetoe (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006X ... UTF8&psc=1)?

My son put me onto this guy, and it looks like a reasoned approach, based on both science and experience. I haven't done much specifically with it yet, and don't plan to go full out into it. For one thing, the damage I've done my body over more than seven decades, and my current age and condition, has to be factored into any approach; and the book is, primarily, "aimed at young athletes." I just need to modify and restrict the approach to my own needs/abilities/risks. Also, for a couple of reasons, I'm more inclined to use various machines than free weights, but I find the book helpful in guiding that as well, even though the author is generally anti-machine. I am taken with his arguments against the approach of "isolating" muscle groups for development, and insistence on exercises that (in a fairly straightforward sense) require the exercise of muscle groups in natural coordinated ways.