TromboneChat

I hope this is the right place to post this.

Used to play years ago and then life got in the way. I even belonged to another trombone forum, although I couldn't remember my nickname on there. Found this one when I tried to search for it.

Anyway.

I picked up a large bore tenor with an F attachment. Much different than what I used to play but I always wanted one and this came along.

I forgot how heavy these things can be. Any tips on dealing with the weight? I seem to remember there being things you could put in the horn to help.

I picked up a method book. I sound ok, not great but it's coming back. Any tips on coming to grips with the F attachment?

Sorry for the long post.

There are a few recent threads on this topic. Here is a good one:
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=240285

I find that, just starting out after a layoff, the weight of the horn determines practice length. But after a while, the hand and arm get stronger. With my main Bach 42B, I really don't need a gadget. But I'm auditioning a different Bach 42B, and because the valve linkage is different, my hand has to hold the horn in a different way! For that, I'm using a Caderpips grip, which makes it fairy easy.

The Polish thing in the above link does look pretty tempting...

Thanks for the link to the topic.

I think you are right that after a while the weight won't be such a big deal.

Balance is more important than weight. If the horn doesn't sit comfortably in your hand and you're feeling that you're constantly trying to hold the slide up, you might benefit from a counterweight.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:20 am Balance is more important than weight. If the horn doesn't sit comfortably in your hand and you're feeling that you're constantly trying to hold the slide up, you might benefit from a counterweight.

Hmm, now that is an interesting thought. I hadn't considered that.

I don't know your situation, but would it be worth considering starting with a smaller/lighter horn?

For the F attachment, it's much the same as practicing the range that doesn't use it, with a bit extra for coordinating the thumb. I'm sure there are more modern books, but the Ostrander book might help.

sf105 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:49 am I don't know your situation, but would it be worth considering starting with a smaller/lighter horn?

For the F attachment, it's much the same as practicing the range that doesn't use it, with a bit extra for coordinating the thumb. I'm sure there are more modern books, but the Ostrander book might help.

Thanks for the info. I will look into the Ostrander.

The Ostrander book is called "F-Attachment and Bass Trombone" and is what I learned on 60 years ago. There are newer books, but I've loaned my copy to several people who found it to be a good introduction.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:44 am The Ostrander book is called "F-Attachment and Bass Trombone" and is what I learned on 60 years ago. There are newer books, but I've loaned my copy to several people who found it to be a good introduction.

Thank you. I am going to see if I can chase down a copy.

sf105 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:49 am I don't know your situation, but would it be worth considering starting with a smaller/lighter horn?

For the F attachment, it's much the same as practicing the range that doesn't use it, with a bit extra for coordinating the thumb. I'm sure there are more modern books, but the Ostrander book might help.

I took your advice and picked up a Jupiter straight horn. I mean who doesn't need more trombones?

I can split my time between the two while I get in shape (and after).

Try practicing for several shorter sessions versus fewer long sessions, if schedule permits. Look into support tools like a strap or ax handle.

I have been trying to find a support but have not had much luck yet.

I play a straight horn. As a community band player, I haven't found anything that requires me to have an f attachment yet. It's nice and light.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:20 am Balance is more important than weight. If the horn doesn't sit comfortably in your hand and you're feeling that you're constantly trying to hold the slide up, you might benefit from a counterweight.

How does one go about buying and installing a counterweight?

That depends on whether you want a branded one made specifically for you horn (e.g., Conn, King, ...) or a "generic" one.

As usual, Google is your friend. Just search for "trombone counterweight" and you'll see the possibilities. Also search on this site for the same and you'll see several discussions about different kinds (including newer "boutique" counterweights) along with talk about installation (typically they basically "clamp" on to a tuning slide brace using supplied screws.

Take a quick look at Hickey's (https://www.hickeys.com/search.php?q=tr ... nterweight) and you'll see several examples.

I got a Hickey's generic one for my cheap Chinese trombone, and only use half of it (one side) for the the balance I need. It's elegantly attached to my tuning slide brace with a zip tie.

oldschooltromboneplayer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 7:30 pm

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:20 am Balance is more important than weight. If the horn doesn't sit comfortably in your hand and you're feeling that you're constantly trying to hold the slide up, you might benefit from a counterweight.

How does one go about buying and installing a counterweight?

Quick and dirty test: find a D battery and tape it to the tuning slide brace.

Counterweights come up for sale here every now and then. Hickeys (among others) sells counterweights. Installation uses 2 screws. Make sure the weight fits the tuning slide brace (braces can be different diameters).

For what's basically a lump of brass, they've become outrageously expensive over the last year or so. I spent $29 last year for a Hickey's generic one.

As Bruce says, diameter matters. What model trombone are we talking about?
Can you "borrow" the one on your Jupiter for a quick trial?

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:22 pm For what's basically a lump of brass, they've become outrageously expensive over the last year or so.

Sometimes I think it's cheaper to buy a junker off shopgoodwill.com just to harvest the counterweight.

For a test, get a couple of those neodynmium magnets and a couple of fender washers. The magnets straddle the tuning slide brace and the washers are outside of it.

That works fine for my cheap alto, I think I've shared a photo here.

There's forward and back torque, but also sideways torque you have to resist. Some counterweights are better than others for that.

Realistically ...

If you want a no-hassle approach to this, then you have to buy a counterweight that's specifically designed to fit whatever model your horn is (or a commercial after-market one that adjusts). Otherwise you're in the DIY arena, and many people can't or don't want to go there.

Even the "generic" counterweights like Hickey's offers put you in the DIY zone because they're ... err ... generic, and so may or may not fit exactly. Or they may not be precisely (or even close to) the optimal weight you need. If you don't want to go DIY, another alternative would be to take the horn to a tech and ask for him/her to do the job. This is all a trade-off of skill and money vs. hassle and quality of result.

If you are thinking of the DIY approach, then keep in mind that almost any genuine trombone counterweight can be made to "fit" almost any trombone. If the mounting grooves for the brace it needs to go on are too small to fit the brace, then some elbow grease with a round file or a dowel with sandpaper can fix that. If the brace has too small a diameter for the mounting grooves to tighten on, then this can be shimmed by using something like pieces of vinyl tubing -- or even just tape (that won't be visible once the weight is mounted). If the generic weight is too heavy, it can be lightened by drilling holes in it. But again, many people won't want to go in these directions. It's all about $+time+skill+effort vs. $$$$ in order to achieve an acceptable result. For most people (if they can afford it), going the $$$$ direction is probably the best choice.

Thanks everyone
I think I will look into the solution from Hickey's.