TromboneChat

Bass bone players, tinkerers, and so on:

I'm a reluctant bass bone player, and I practice almost every day, but not bass bone. I get frustrated on bass because I can't do the things that I do on tenor. One of those things is lip slurs down. Lip slurs down on bass take a lot of air, which I find I have less of as I age. I can do one, maybe two lipslurs down (say G, D, C - open, 1st valve, both valves) before I totally run out of air.

I know a lot of bass bone players just dispense with slurs altogether and just hammer tongue everything. I don't want to play like that. I have 3 other tenor pros that I have to keep up with, and with this handicap, its hard.

How do you deal with lip slurs down?

And one other question. I'm ok on bass until I have to start playing fast with the 2nd valve. Tell me anything but "practice".

first of all, practice! You won't get better at it not playing it.

But, it does help to know some things. It sounds to me like you're probably too wide and unfocused at the chops on the bass- the horn gets REALLY unfun and inefficient if things are a little too open before the instrument. You probably lock your mouthpiece into a certain place on the face, make sure the bass mouthpiece is at least in the same groove on the bottom lip and you're not letting it wander around.

There's lots of other things I see and hear tenor players do, but it's a good starting point to just make sure the mouthpiece is correctly placed- things might line up quickly after that.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:43 pm first of all, practice! You won't get better at it not playing it.

Dang it.

... you're probably too wide and unfocused at the chops on the bass- the horn gets REALLY unfun and inefficient if things are a little too open before the instrument.

Out of high school I could play a pedal c on 88h w/5g.. And then 20 yrs later I took a decade off the horn. Now i struggle to get pedal f on bass w/1.25g... Seems counter intuitive to narrow down the chops to play low, but I'll give it a try.

I think it must be mostly practice because I play pretty much nothing but bass and find those slurs you mention to not be challenging at this point -- but I can remember when some of just those low pitches were highly challenging, never mind slurring to them.

I've worked up to my current abilities in this area with a lot of focused practice and with a lot of mouthpiece switching to make things easier at times -- going from a 1.14" rim to the 1.10" rim I use now and from a more open to a less open shank. Very likely the mouthpiece switching approach could have been replaced by instruction from a good teacher -- but that's the way I roll for several reasons.

I find these things to be quite sensitive to a combination of rim diameter, bowl depth/shape, and shank/bore. Change any of those and you change the feel and the result.

I do have one suggestion for you (which I understand you may not like): go to a smaller mouthpiece. After a couple of years of experimentation I've found that ones in the 1.25 range are just a bit big for me (though maybe not for you -- people's faces are different), and -- while that initially helped me extend my range -- it actually retarded my lower range capabilities in other ways, making the articulation and dynamics more difficult.

For the big band jazz stuff I'm pretty much playing exclusively now, I need to get in and out of that low range quickly, with good tone, at different dynamics, and clear articulation. I just recently (after some more testing with things like a Stork 1.5, different configurations of the DE setup, and some Wicks) have moved to a (standard) Wick 0AL. If anything, this is a narrower piece than 1.10" (I measure it as somewhere around 1.08"-1.10"), with a fairly deep bowl, and a backbore that just works great for me -- and gives me the sound I want for the jazz group. I compared it to the 0AL Heavy Top, and that just didn't work as well. So for now the standard Wick 0AL seems to work best for me throughout the range from above the staff down all the way to the pedal E on the valve. And this includes great articulation, slurring, and at a low dynamic level. A good target is to be able to play those problematic slurs cleanly at a low dynamic level and good tone quality.

So maybe think about going a bit smaller with your mouthpiece and maybe with a less open bore to get a a bit more resistance and better/easier response. Just a thought.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:05 am I do have one suggestion for you (which I understand you may not like): go to a smaller mouthpiece.

Yeah, I was starting to think that direction. My low range was lower on a smaller mouthpiece, so there must be something to it.

I have a Ferguson V which is smaller than the DE 114K8 I'm using now. I might also start practicing low range on tenor again. It seems no matter what instrument I'm playing, small bore or bass, my upper and lower range is exactly the same. It doesn't sound as nice on the wrong horn, but the notes are the same.

I tried a Ferguson V some years ago and recall that I liked it quite a bit.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:24 am I tried a Ferguson V some years ago and recall that I liked it quite a bit.

"More efficient" was one of the blurbs in the marketing description about it. Kind of goes to Burgerbob's point too about efficiency. I'm on bass this afternoon, so I'll give the V a shot.

I used the V for quartet yesterday. I'm not sure why I didn't do this earlier, the V is one of my favorite mouthpieces, but I've been using it as a big tenor piece. The horn was suddenly a little better behaved, more of the trombone sound I've wanted. Low range still sucked, although I was able to play the pedal Gs that are in my parts. The high range sounded less like a euphonium. The V is even small as a 1.5g goes, but it's bigger than a 2G.

Maybe it's time to practice bass bone. If it's less miserable, I might play it more.

Lip slurs are controlled with the jaw and to an even greater extent, your tongue position and shape. Your tongue needs to come down to slur down. If you're a downstream player, this movement is in conjunction with the jaw moving slightly down and forward.

Whistle something high, then gliss down an octave. Same idea.

Practice.

Honestly most people who don't play bass much play very inefficiently with a very not clean technique and lose a lot of energy (at least partly meaning air) due to bad response and unstable embouchure.

And yes, better understanding of the embouchure certainly helps, but part of it is practicing. If you want to play low, you have to practice low. If you just want to play a few loud notes, that may not be too necessary, but if you want to play challenging stuff in a convincing way, there is no other option than practice.

Whenever I have something challenging come up on bass, I always come back to some (admittedly largely shortened and less extreme) adaption of the Phil Teele stuff.

Addition:
This is under the assumption that you are playing some normal equipment and that this is not the key issue.
Also for detailed analysis of e.g. embouchure function other people have much better ideas than I do plus obviously this would need some pictures or video.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:11 am Lip slurs are controlled...

Yeah, I've got tenor slurs. It's the low bass slurs that kick me like a horse.

Something that I find helps me with getting a consistent, focused sound is the do-re-do-mi-do-fa-etc scales, slowish (eighths at quarter=60), paying attention to the color of the lower note and making sure it has some zing. The focus is on color, not phrasing, so I breathe as needed. That zing is the sound of efficiency.

Also really good are the "flexivalve" (?) studies: do - re - lower sol - do - upper sol - lower sol - do (repeated once), starting on b-flat and going down an octave by half-steps (or at least to E-flat). Still want to focus on the color of the lower notes, but this may help build that "drop-in" speed you're looking for as you increase the tempo. And you'll get used to the second trigger in a pattern that is pretty common for bass parts. (this one takes less than 10 minutes if you do a full octave, closer to 5 if you stop at E-flat)

And I concur with all the mouthpiece stuff: bigger might make the trigger register easier, but usually makes everything else (including pedals) harder to focus.

MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:26 am Practice.

Honestly most people who don't play bass much play very inefficiently with a very not clean technique and lose a lot of energy (at least partly meaning air) due to bad response and unstable embouchure.

Alas, so true.

Also, chasing the low notes with larger equipment can also disrupt your embouchure so that you actually lose ground in that direction -- in part because you change your embouchure to dip into those low notes, especially on the larger equipment. I've done that to myself to some degree, and now that I'm more settled on what my goals and equipment are, I'm working on building back the better embouchure. It's just time and practice, but you do have to know what to take the time on, what to correct, and what/how to practice. Recording yourself can be a helpful, if somewhat humiliating, aid.

Regarding "pedal tones":

Generally the open horn pedals aren't the real problem. They''ll speak and resonate just fine once you find them. It's the double valve pitches like the C natural and B natural that need to speak for you immediately, with a good sound, at good tempo, in funky rhythms, and while you're mixing them in passages with 1st and 2nd valve (or open horn) notes down there as well. This is, again, a place where efficiency matters and where you don't want to be shifting your embouchure all over the place.

In terms of playing fast with the 2nd valve, practice makes a huge difference. I in fact find that I use the 2nd valve (alone) a LOT. There are just a lot of passages that are more naturally and quickly played on the Gb valve than the F. Take some time and pretend that your F valve is broken and just use the Gb valve. Make sure your trigger is set up well enough to make that easy and natural, or you'll always be trying to avoid it. But those Gb slide positions have to become as "automatic" as the F ones are for you now -- and similarly the double valve positions. It just requires time and practice. How much of this will be "required" for you is unclear and depends on the sort of music you're playing and expect to play. I find that playing the big band stuff is WAY more demanding in this regard than typical concert band or smaller ensemble music typically is.

For practice, one of the things I work on is both the exercises and real-worldish song examples in Joe Tarto's Basic Rhythm and the Art of Jazz Improvisation. The subtitle is "For Tuba, Baritone, Bass Trombone, String Bass, Bass Guitar." This book had become unobtanium, but in looking up a possible source for it, I just discovered that it's been released in a digital edition: https://charlescolin.com/product/basic- ... provising/. I just ordered the digital edition online (for use on my tablet), and downloaded it!!

When you practice bass trombone, don't neglect the high register. Building the strength to play up high on the larger equipment helps you in the low range (and your tenor chops too).
To warm up I play slurred/glissed scales in thirds (no tongue) in all ranges in all keys. The up/down action of the thirds intervals works like isometrics, tightening/relaxing the chops making for a good strength/endurance building workout. Start in the comfortable middle and work the range in both directions. Then try scales in 4ths, 5ths etc, widening the intervals.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:50 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:11 am Lip slurs are controlled...

Yeah, I've got tenor slurs. It's the low bass slurs that kick me like a horse.

I would try exaggerating the technique you know. Just trying to help. For me it's the same thing on any brass instrument.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:17 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:50 am
Yeah, I've got tenor slurs. It's the low bass slurs that kick me like a horse.

I would try exaggerating the technique you know. Just trying to help. For me it's the same thing on any brass instrument.

I agree it's the same general idea, but on bass down low they're so much wider apart and require so much more air. Totally kicking my donkey if I'm going to make a thing of this after 10 years of fighting it. Smaller mouthpiece with more focused chops is where I'm starting. Hopefully I can figure out a smaller backbore. I tend to think more resistance is the thing for me.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:31 am I tend to think more resistance is the thing for me.

Up to a point. Then you face trade-offs in terms of projection and tone quality. But I think this is a process you have to go through. You have to incrementally increase your skills/ability. And as you do, you'll discover that you can change your equipment around to effectively use what you weren't able to previously. It's a journey. A kind of "atheletic" model of skill and strength development is appropriate, and it won't be immediate (or even fast).

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:31 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:17 am

I would try exaggerating the technique you know. Just trying to help. For me it's the same thing on any brass instrument.

Smaller mouthpiece with more focused chops is where I'm starting. Hopefully I can figure out a smaller backbore. I tend to think more resistance is the thing for me.

It could just be the cup width. I have a 2G sized bass mouthpiece that I designed, identical to the one I play on now but with a heavier blank. It does have a deep cup and open throat though....

It's like everything people are after in the "big boy" bass mouthpieces but with a cup width identical to the other stuff I play, about 1.06". Very easy to move through partials because it's already what I play.

I'm thinking of putting it up for sale, since the lighter blank is snappier for me.

My two cents:

I’m a doubler, and bass is my primary. Yes, bass takes more air because there’s less impedence. Larger mouthpiece, larger tube, additional tubing, etc. You will breath more often, and you will use more air playing a forte (or a piano) on the same note compared to someone playing tenor. Get used to sucking in more air and…

…using that air efficiently. That is, it’s critical to develop an efficient embouchure and efficient use of air . Many novice bass trombonists, as well as middle and high school bass trombonists, use either way too much or way too little air. Just as importantly, it takes time to develop an embouchure that produces maximum resonance with minimum effort.

The ideal is to play a clear, present pianissimo that is heard by everyone in the hall even when the rest of the band or orchestra are playing. That takes (a) a constant, steady stream of air of the appropriate size passing by (b) an embouchure that is (c) appropriately tensed around and below the corners and up to the mouthpiece, so that it is (d) enough to keep the lips in place to vibrate and (e) loose enough in the center to vibrate.

But remember that an embouchure is dynamic. It has to change with different pitches, volume, etc. The challenge is to have an embouchure that produces a consistent sound in an efficient manner. (I’ll leave the mechanics of an appropriate and well-functioning embouchure to Doug Elliott, Dave Wilken, and other experts.)

A couple of concepts that I’ve found helpful with lip slurs are:
1. Think of connecting the notes so that you’re playing a full chromatic scale between each note in 1/100th of a second.

2. Think of the next note in a slur as a “snap” from one note to the other, but a “snap” that is so gentle as to not be heard. There’s simply one note and another note in a constant sound.


Practice ideas that have helped me:
1. Play the slur as a glissando (fast and slow) that then “snaps” to the next partial. For example, going from to , play a glissando from down to fourth position and then at the last minute “snap” up to . Then, use the opposite approach. Play the then immediately “snap” up to the next partial and make a quick glissando down to .

2. Play a passage all glissando, in time and in tune. Make the glissandos all very quick but with a smooth slide motion—no herky jerky movements, just a smooth, efficient motion that stops at each note. Use that feeling and the sound of the glissando as a guide to steer you towards the direction of a beautiful slur.

I’ll shut up now…

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:37 pm Bass bone players, tinkerers, and so on:

I'm a reluctant bass bone player, and I practice almost every day, but not bass bone. I get frustrated on bass because I can't do the things that I do on tenor. One of those things is lip slurs down. Lip slurs down on bass take a lot of air, which I find I have less of as I age. I can do one, maybe two lipslurs down (say G, D, C - open, 1st valve, both valves) before I totally run out of air.

I know a lot of bass bone players just dispense with slurs altogether and just hammer tongue everything. I don't want to play like that. I have 3 other tenor pros that I have to keep up with, and with this handicap, its hard.

How do you deal with lip slurs down?

And one other question. I'm ok on bass until I have to start playing fast with the 2nd valve. Tell me anything but "practice".

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:37 pm Bass bone players, tinkerers, and so on:

I'm a reluctant bass bone player, and I practice almost every day, but not bass bone. I get frustrated on bass because I can't do the things that I do on tenor. One of those things is lip slurs down. Lip slurs down on bass take a lot of air, which I find I have less of as I age. I can do one, maybe two lipslurs down (say G, D, C - open, 1st valve, both valves) before I totally run out of air.

I know a lot of bass bone players just dispense with slurs altogether and just hammer tongue everything. I don't want to play like that. I have 3 other tenor pros that I have to keep up with, and with this handicap, its hard.

How do you deal with lip slurs down?

And one other question. I'm ok on bass until I have to start playing fast with the 2nd valve. Tell me anything but "practice".

I think you got some good answers already. I also have less air as I get older. Anyway, the bass trombone and tenor trombone isn't so different. We don't need a different approach but of course we have to practice both if we want to play both. Through the later years I have read and seen a lot about air and use of air. I'm in fact a little confused about air. But I think the solution is to have a good breath in, and not to use more than you have to. Breath naturally, Dont think about the stomach.
I teach a lot of young players, and slur downwards is the first lip slurs I ask them to do. Bb-F-Bb. Sometimes it can be good to do it slow and like a glizz without moving the slide. It has to be a smooth glizz and don't care about sound when doing it.

Hope you will enjoy the bass trombone!

Leif

Good stuff from KBiggs and Savio right there.

As an old guy still struggling mightily with my bass trombone low range after playing again for 5 years I have a question about this advice:

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:36 pm Breath naturally, Dont think about the stomach.

I read this in an old thread:

Almost no talk is made about what to do with the air you do have

Does the advice about not thinking about the stomach also apply to blowing? I finally had a lesson with a bass trombonist recently (after a few years of lessons with a small bore player) and one of the first observations he had was that I needed to engage my core much more when blowing in the low range.

I never find the invocation of "core" by instructors or physical therapists to be particularly clear or helpful -- although it often seems to mean that they want you to make use of abdominal muscles. Whether that's exactly needed or will be successful is an entirely different matter.

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:52 am As an old guy still struggling mightily with my bass trombone low range after playing again for 5 years I have a question about this advice:

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:36 pm Breath naturally, Dont think about the stomach.

I read this in an old thread:

Almost no talk is made about what to do with the air you do have

Does the advice about not thinking about the stomach also apply to blowing? I finally had a lesson with a bass trombonist recently (after a few years of lessons with a small bore player) and one of the first observations he had was that I needed to engage my core much more when blowing in the low range.

I don't know how to activate specific muscles. I do know how to breathe in and breathe out. Controlling the air coming out has to be somehow different from just exhaling, but I'm pretty sure no one could control a specific list of muscles to do that.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:21 am I don't know how to activate specific muscles.

Go to the gym or health club and find their collection of Keiser Resistance machines. Look for the one that says "Bass trombone valve and pedal range" (don't get confused by anything that actually has pedals). That machine will exercise the muscles you need activated.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:42 am ...collection of Keiser Resistance machines.

You misspelled "Keister"

You mean "kiester"? The machines I use are definitely Keiser.

It was a joke...

and it's ei, not ie

I figured it was a joke, but I wasn't getting it.

I've just been spending a lot of time on the Keiser machines lately because of my lumbar sciatic issues. After years of effort I finally realized it wasn't physical "therapy" I needed, but just consistent strength building.

I only dabble in bass trombone. One of my teachers (Ed Huttlin) was a fine bass trombonist and I was fascinated by the things he could do. He was also a terrific musical coach.

I enjoy reading what real bass trombonists say about how they approach playing. Good thread here.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 6:30 pm I figured it was a joke, but I wasn't getting it.

I've just been spending a lot of time on the Keiser machines lately because of my lumbar sciatic issues. After years of effort I finally realized it wasn't physical "therapy" I needed, but just consistent strength building.

I discovered that my sciatic issues were actually tight piriformis muscles, and a few specific stretches held long enough plus a couple of exercises relieved virtually all of the symptoms.

And now back to bass trombone subjects...

I've done a little research, and the only 1.5g-ish mouthpiece with a smaller throat seems to be the Bach or Faxx 1.5g. The Ferguson V is a nice piece that I already had, just wondering what else is available.

I'm trying to focus the low embouchure, and I'm sure its gonna take some time.

This might be helpful. viewtopic.php?t=35868

sf105 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 12:55 pm This might be helpful. viewtopic.php?t=35868

Uuuuuhhhhhh.... That looks a lot like practice. In fact I think he used the word "practice". Practice is something we do on tenor trombone. Good thing my wife is out of the house this week. She hates it when I "practice" bass bone. Especially glisses like that.

Although I have to say, he is very consistent between open and trigger notes. Way back starting out, repetition was the way to get familiar with how the horn worked, so I suppose it's the same with the bass bone. I've never studied it, barely practiced, and certainly haven't gone through all the stuff I went through on tenor. So this sort of thing should be helpful.

Yes, bass trombone definitely need more air, more support and more stamina. Is the difference between tenor and bass that big? Honestly, at least not as big as you think when you just pick up the bass trombone for the first time. Breathe more, deeper is necessary, but more importantly, your breathe control, the way of how you us the air. For example, Americans generally has a larger lung capacity than asians, does it means that Asians can't master on a bass trombone or a tuba? It's not the case, right? In my opinion, practice long tones (8 beats in 52 bpm per note) in forte (or fortissimo if you can) and make everything consistent (tone, intonation, dynamics). Try not to force the air and use support. Soon you will know how to control your breathe (hope so) and you can distribute your air evenly to every single note and a smooth slur can be obtained.
One more advice: When you are struggling on something (technique/intonation/tone), leave it aside and practice something you seldomly touch on (or something that's not your practice focus). Take me as an example, the previous week I was practicing low register on my tenor and never touched on any note higher than Bb3. I thought I can't play my high register anymore in fact I just went up to those F6, Bb6 (easier than b4)

Hyperbolica, I missed the second part of your post about developing facility with the second valve. Exercises that have helped me are scales scales played with just the second valve in and below the staff. Arpeggios, too.

About 25-30 years ago, after a few years of playing bass, I wasn’t happy with my second valve facility or my facility with both valves, so I went back to basics. I played through a couple of books using only the second valve:

Ostrander: Method for Bass or F-Attachment and Bass Trombone (I don’t remember which)
Lew Gillis 70 Progressive Studies
Marstellar and Roberts Let’s Play Bass Trombone

All three are progressive, adding one note at a time from the F side of the horn until you’re able to play all the positions. Personally, I found the Gillis to be most helpful. There are several etudes he recycles in different keys, which helps with ear training and slide patterns. I went so far as to write a couple of them down and transposed them to 12 different keys.

Re: slurs and air, I’ve attached a copy of the Bill Hill slurs I re-wrote so that they’re legible and aren’t skewed on the page. For added value, play the Bill Hill slurs down one octave. That’s get your lungs working!

If the idea is to play bass and not practice much think "dependent", even if I your setup is "independent". And use the smallest possible bass piece you can. If you need to use both valves, stay with both pressed for as long as you can, and vice versa.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:26 am If the idea is to play bass and not practice much think "dependent", even if I your setup is "independent". And use the smallest possible bass piece you can. If you need to use both valves, stay with both pressed for as long as you can, and vice versa.

The idea is to get better on bass without 1) practicing bass or 2) affecting my tenor chops.

I think I'm giving up on 1, but still holding on to 2.

I've tried a number of smaller mouthpieces. There is some indication I was on a rim that was too big. There does seem to be a limit as to how small I can go on the bass rim. 110 feels good. I was on 112 and 114. I'm starting to think the front of the mouthpiece needs to be smaller while the back needs to be a little bigger.

I've been testing Stork 1.5S against Faxx 1.5, Ferguson V and a couple of DE combinations. Stork and DE are neck in neck, but I can tweak the DE, so I have a feeling that's where this is going. Plus, I really love DE lexan rims.

Not sure I get how the dependent/independent idea applies. I use 2nd valve a lot in sharp keys or stuff with 4 or more flats. If I can get an articulation going across the valve instead of using a tongued articulation, I'll do it.

You're pretty much in the same position I am -- except I'm full time on bass and no tenor. Most recently I have found the DE combo I'm using to be superior to both the Stork BT 1.5 and the Wick 0AL. That's with a DE 110 Lexan rim, LB K bowl, and K8 shank. That's for jazz band. Might go with a K9 shank for concert band.

Sorry, I took it as going between one and two valves and using them independently is difficult. For me it definitely is. Not something I care about or want to practice, so I just play like it's dependent and I avoid going back and forth, ie 1 to 1 + 2 to open, etc.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 7:43 pm Sorry, I took it as going between one and two valves and using them independently is difficult. For me it definitely is. Not something I care about or want to practice, so I just play like it's dependent and I avoid going back and forth, 1 to 1 + 2.

Oh, that, yeah. That would sort itself out if I thought I had any natural bass bone embouchure. Tenor has been so easy, but bass is just a struggle. That's a practice thing, for sure. The bass bone solo in Putting On The Ritz has a lot of awkward fiddling with the valves. It can be avoided with some alternate positions, but yeah the second valve complicates things especially when things speed up.

Some more thoughts (I think somewhere in this thread I basically stated that it needs practice).

If you "stabilize" your bass embouchure by practice and potentially better understanding of the mechanics and maybe also adjusting equipment, I wouldn't expect this to negatively impact your tenor chops (too much). Just don't build a bass embouchure that can only play low, but practice across more or less the same upper range as on tenor as well.

Also regarding facility in the low/double valve register: While I do feel I have a pretty strong low range on bass and didn't really come across low range stuff that I couldn't play, I did realize 1-2 years ago that may facility in that range could still be substantially improved. Playing more jazz, bigband and ensemble stuff demands more in that area. The obvious answer is again to practice. I like playing scales and patterns across that range and have gained quite a bit of flexibility down there.

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:19 am Just don't build a bass embouchure that can only play low, but practice across more or less the same upper range as on tenor as well.
...
Playing more jazz, bigband and ensemble stuff demands more in that area. The obvious answer is again to practice.

These go hand in hand. Playing bass in big band requires that you adeptly cover the whole range from the octave above the staff through the octave below the staff -- sometimes in the same measure. Sometimes you're a tenor trombone. Sometimes you're a slide tuba (well, sort of). And it's the big jumps in and out of the double valve and pedal range that can be really challenging -- at least for me.

I like playing scales and patterns across that range and have gained quite a bit of flexibility down there.

Practice by playing tuba music -- and not just the exercises and etudes.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:29 am Practice by playing tuba music -- and not just the exercises and etudes.

The last time I played tuba parts on bass bone for a quintet gig, my whole face was sloppy wet. Very unpleasant.

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:19 am
...
Playing more jazz, bigband and ensemble stuff demands more in that area. The obvious answer is again to practice.

Bigband isn't so much a problem. It can mostly be done on single plug, I just use the big horn to make sure I get real low C's. The real bass bone challenge is quartet. We play some Four Of A Kind arrangements, Elkjer, Ingo Luis and some other really nice arrangements that have a surprising amount of moving around and solos under the staff.

The smaller mouthpiece is getting the sound more into the trombone area, but the low range is still a struggle after pedal G. I find after playing about half an hour, the pedal F comes easier, and now and then I can get to Eb. If I can get to pedal D, that's all I'll ask for, I think. If I can get there, then something has been fixed.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:00 am The last time I played tuba parts on bass bone for a quintet gig, my whole face was sloppy wet. Very unpleasant.

That's a problem I haven't had.

I just use the big horn to make sure I get real low C's.

Not to mention the B's (which are more frequent than I would have expected). Also (since I have come, in my own way, from tuba to bass trombone), I suspect that I use the valves differently (and much more) than many bass trombonists do (e.g. for the D and Db, and heavy use of the Gb valve alone). I think I wouldn't feel as comfortable or as "in control" on a dependent horn.

I agree with just about everything above. Being a bass bone player who doubles on tenor, I find working on extreme lows on tenor makes them even easier on bass, and extreme highs on bass making them easier on tenor. Anecdotal? Yes. Take everything I say with a grain of salt

PS
Working on my bass extreme high range (correctly) makes my double trigger pedals more snappy and responsive. Every bit of this seems counterintuitive and it is.

Basically the same idea as swinging a weighted bat before you step up to the plate.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:29 am Practice by playing tuba music -- and not just the exercises and etudes.

There are some nice tuba concertos to try out!