TromboneChat

I’ve dug through the forum and love the help I see. After a few months of reading and struggling with a problem, I wish to seek advice here. Please share your thoughts! I know this is a lot to read, and I appreciate any help as I move along in this journey.

I’ve been on an a journey back to playing trombone after nearly 25 years off. At 54, as expected, things felt awkward at first but after a few weeks of playing daily, I was pleased with the comeback. However, I am struggling with repeated articulations in the middle and upper registers. The first note is usually clean, but followed by splats and fuzzy starts to the rest. This is especially the case on repeated notes. For example, the classic Remington repeated eighth notes followed by a half/whole note that used to feel easy now feels impossible. This is not the case from low E (i7th pos.) below the staff up to D in the staff. This low range feels good and sounds the way I expect, yet I can’t do the same in the middle and upper registers.

My first teachers urged “Tah” and “Toh” articulations for nearly all notes. Even on a legato passage, I articulated with a “t” and connected the notes with airstream and clean/quick slide technique. And this seemed to work fine when I was 25.

As I’ve explored this challenge, I’ve tried some things:
-See where your tongue touches on low notes, do the same for high, put it somewhere in between for the middle register.
-Use nah-nah-nah-nah-naaaaaaaah and ne/ni instead of tah/toh… for repeated tonguing.
-Avoid focusing on it and spend time on legato etudes.
-Experiment with various tongue positions/movements to find the clean start to notes.

Additionally, I’ve noticed some other commonalities:

-I can gliss through any musical passage with good tone and a clear sound in any register.
-Even with legato playing my sound immediately turns fuzzy and strained when I use my tongue to articulate on notes middle Bb and higher.
-I get some better results when I focus on bumping each note start with a bit more air which cleans the front of notes but adds a bump up in the volume on each pulse of air.
-For legato playing I can feel and hear good note starts (initial and repeated) when I consciously tongue “nah” toward the roof of my mouth, near the center.

I sought help from some experts and am currently using their collective advice to mix in the following strategies one at a time or combined in my practice sessions.

1. Confirm a good focused embouchure (thank you, Doug!)
2. Avoid using your tongue at all for note starts or use “nah/dah” or mix it up like “tah-dah-dah” or “tah-nah-nah”
3. Spend time starting all articulations with only air and buzz.
4. Try to imitate the good articulations from the low register by gradually moving into the middle via a scale or melody.
5. Spend some time on my smaller horn- alternating between .547 and .500 bores. Same MP rim (see equipment above)

Finally, I should note that this repeated tonguing issue seemed only subtle and quite fixable when I started playing every day. Everything needed work. But once other aspects of my playing got better, this repeated tonguing issue seemed to get worse. I even played on a couple of concerts with no concern or problems.

As I eased back into things, I did an equipment check and landed with the following:
Edwards T-350 (1993) w #1 lead pipe, yellow brass bass crook slide (lightweight!)
Olds Studio (1953)
Mouthpieces - DE XT F+/G8/MN103, DE XT C+/D2.5/MN103

Assuming I haven’t developed any physical dysfunction, I’m under the impression my improvement will continue. But, I would really love to hear advice from this group about how I introduce clear articulations in the middle and upper registers. I’m having trouble seeing a future moment in which my tongue suddenly starts doing what it should.

Having been in much the same situation for a long time, and figuring it out recently, I'd assume you're blowing the chops apart with articulations.

I like to think "dada" (most english speakers' first-ish word). Very conversational, simple, light.

If I did not work with you directly, be careful about that "good centered embouchure" idea.
There are a number of possibilities and I hesitate to make recommendatons without actually seeing the situation.
You're somehow "letting go" of the pitch after the initial articulation. It could also be that the 103 rim size is simply too big for you.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 9:49 am If I did not work with you directly, be careful about that "good centered embouchure" idea.
There are a number of possibilities and I hesitate to make recommendatons without actually seeing the situation.
You're somehow "letting go" of the pitch after the initial articulation. It could also be that the 103 rim size is simply too big for you.

You did. I think you said “the sweet spot”. That’s what I’m attempting to say with “good centered embouchure”. Also, you recommended the 103/104 based on what you saw. I do have a 101 and 102 that I used to play. I find the problem is consistent across each. Thanks for your help, Doug.

UrbanaDave wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 10:23 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 9:49 am If I did not work with you directly, be careful about that "good centered embouchure" idea.
There are a number of possibilities and I hesitate to make recommendatons without actually seeing the situation.
You're somehow "letting go" of the pitch after the initial articulation. It could also be that the 103 rim size is simply too big for you.

You did. I think you said “the sweet spot”. That’s what I’m attempting to say with “good centered embouchure”. Also, you recommended the 103/104 based on what you saw. I do have a 101 and 102 that I used to play. I find the problem is consistent across each. Thanks for your help, Doug.

…although on trying my old 101 just now, I feel a bit more “help?” and more focus to the sound. Maybe we can jump back onto another video session soon?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 8:34 am Having been in much the same situation for a long time, and figuring it out recently, I'd assume you're blowing the chops apart with articulations.

I like to think "dada" (most english speakers' first-ish word). Very conversational, simple, light.

Yes, I think I am trying to start with my articulation. I catch myself sticking my tongue in between my teeth from time to time and that usually leads to a breakdown for the subsequent articulations. I’m trying to start the buzz/air/tongue (da, nah, etc.) simultaneously. But my tongue keeps leading the way.

Thanks for your thought, BurgerBob. I would love to hear more.

On my journey coming back after 15 years off I have found articulations are hard. As I have developed more strength they have slowly gotten better.

When I first came back to the horn, doing scale patterns would start off ok but gradually get fuzzier the more I played. Fatigue set in really fast.

It is better now but it still crops up if I play long enough.

Don't be dependent on articlation to start notes. The tongue should only clean it up, so make it smooth and clean with no tongue, then only use a minimum amount of light articulation to clean it up.

That obviously applies to legato playing, but less obvious is that it also applies to everything else too.

Think "remove tounge" rather than to "put it in a certain place to be removed later". The attack should be very gentle and fast, therefore you think; "remove, remove, remove" as you strike. As suggested you could practice without the tounge at first.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 4:26 pm Think "remove tounge" rather than to "put it in a certain place to be removed later". The attack should be very gentle and fast, therefore you think "remove". "Remove, remove, remove". As suggested you could practice without the tounge at first.

/Tom

Also very good advice

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 4:26 pm Think "remove tounge" rather than to "put it in a certain place to be removed later". The attack should be very gentle and fast, therefore you think; "remove, remove, remove" as you strike. As suggested you could practice without the tounge at first.

/Tom

Thank you! I love this and am finding it quite helpful.

Thanks for the help, everyone. I’m putting this advice to work. Will report back when I’ve given it due diligence.

-UPDATE-

I'm spending some time playing with no tongued articulations. From time to time I experiment with "gah" and "dah". "gah" works well but doesn't seem like a fix as much as a step along the way. "dah" gives me a good sound but contributes to my buzz and sound breaking down as described above.

With Doug's help (thanks for reaching out, Doug!!) I explored "gah", doodle, and other ways of moving my tongue. He and one other excellent teacher has suggested that I just stick to glissing everything for a couple of weeks. "not even using the back of my tongue to articulate?" "NO Tongue." Thus pinning the tip down behind my lower teeth, out of the way of the buzz. I'm comfortable with this and feel my sound getting stronger and better, but I still don't understand how this will all come back together. Perhaps a gradual reintroduction of very light tongued articulations? "gah", "nah", etc.

Also, I'm exploring the possibility that my lower lip is just not participating in my buzz like it should. I've observed it curling back in, and Doug suggested that I might even be disrupting my lower lip position with my tongue.
I'm aware of another strand on the forum about this. Will link here with an edit soon.

Finally, I'm trying to allow my buzz aperture a bit wider which seems to keep my lower jaw and chin from moving as much as it used to. I've noticed how tiny my aperture seems sometimes and with a bit of thought, I can open up and get a much bigger/better sound. I also gain much better flexibility from low to high.

I would love to hear if others have gone through this and how they handled it.

After listening to a couple of interviews with bass trombonist Dave Taylor, I wondered whether he spent as much time on articulation as Phil Teele spent on long tones.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2024 11:27 am Don't be dependent on articlation to start notes. The tongue should only clean it up, so make it smooth and clean with no tongue, then only use a minimum amount of light articulation to clean it up.

That obviously applies to legato playing, but less obvious is that it also applies to everything else too.

Thats my experience!

When we get older somethings doesn't work like when we was younger. We change a little bit. We loose something but we also gain something. When we have played some years we dont feel the needs of of warm up or basic. What I noticed with me is I should still do the basic things I was told to do as a young player.

My believe is that the air is starting the sound, the tongue just shape the beginning of the sound.
(My experience is also not to use too much air)

Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 3:33 pm ...
My believe is that the air is starting the sound, the tongue just shape the beginning of the sound.
(My experience is also not to use too much air)

Leif

Yes! Good post. The tongue shall not be heard so the air is acctually what should start the sound, always if you do not acctually want the tounge heard for an effect. To not use too much air is a good advice. "Too much" do indicate this anyway, but I understand what you mean. To effectively use the air is what's important.
In the high register the need of air is less compared to the low register. As a bass trombone player I run out of air all the time , but as a tenor trombone player it is more rare it happens. It has never happened on alto. You need an efficient emboushure to be able to save air so you do not waste it.

/Tom