TromboneChat

Which modern horns, in your view, play most like: i) Conn 48H and ii) Conn 6H?
Thanks

I don't think it plays like a 48 or 6h, but if you're an old Conn kind of person, you might enjoy a Getzen 3508. I've got the 3508 and 48h. 48h is heavy and 3508 is light. 48h is straight 500 bore 3508 is dual 500/508. 48h has a nickel plated bell, my 3508 has red brass bell (also available in yellow). The 48h is a bit darker sound. 3508 feels freer and more open.

I've considered myself a 48h fan for some time, but now I actually prefer the 3508. I've had mine for about a year.

Rath actually has a lot of Conn influence. The R1, R2 and R10 are beautiful horns, and you can get nickel-silver bells. Also the Greenhoe GC2 can have a nickel-silver bell.

I'm not an expert on 48H's, but I've played a 6H for some years.

Obviously, there is no perfect copy. I'd say a Yamaha 354 student model can at least feel and sound similar. It's not the same, but it also wouldn't be a huge adjustment for a 6H player. Of course, it all depends on your 6H.

For instance, the one I played is rather bright. The Yamaha is slightly darker and beefier in comparison - but the same can be said about other 6H's I tried.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:39 am You might also look into various incarnations of small bore Rath - R1, R2, R10. You can get a nickel bell with those, and Rath was heavily influenced by Conn.

I once played a few notes on a friend's R100, which is the cheaper, non-custom Rath. I think it was a smaller bell,
but also yellow brass.
While it didn't exactly feel like playing a 6H, the sound difference wasn't huge.

It might behoove us to look at how we got to where we are today from a humanities perspective of the popularities of the Conn 6H and 48H trombones. After WWII, consumer demand was high. Factories were transitioning from products of war to consumer goods. Some women returned to the home and some chose to remain in the workforce. There was probably no problem finding work for those who wanted it, at least until the leaner times of the middle 1950’s. Art reflected the culture around it. Big bands transitioned to the fatter sound of Las Vegas, LA, the West Coast, and NY. And despite demand, the increasing costs of touring with large entourages of big band players encouraged the emergence of smaller groups playing jazz. King felt the pulse, and came out with the King 3B. Conn had the legacy 6H.

Within this context of opulent economy and fatter sounds, it would be some time before the increase in discretionary income found its way to the music industry. It was common for players to have one horn. If they taught or had an orchestra gig, they might have a large bore tenor. If they concentrated on jazz, the King 2B, King 3B, and Conn 6H were extremely popular. There was a plethora of other horns, of course. A few players might have a large bore and a small bore horn. Herb Rankin, 1st chair in the KC Philharmonic, complained about playing the circus on his 88H, every year. It was a ritual. Like most paradigms, the mentality was slow to change. Even if someone were a performance major in music at university, if they didn’t have an orchestra gig after graduation, when gas was $0.16 per gallon ($0.11 per gallon during price wars), selling that extra horn would pay for gas in a car that only got 16 miles per gallon, at best, for a year or two, or more, at least. You do the math.

Meanwhile, Bebop was born. People hung onto their King 2B because Bebop was hard, high and fast, at least until JJ Johnson taught us how. As they pushed more air through their King 2B, the King 2B sound migrated away from a traditional Tommy Dorsey sound to a sound that was more complex. Conn 6H trombones had a sound that defined smokey, especially on ballads, as taught by Frank Rosolino. The Conn 6H sound could rival a King 2B getting a little push. In an era of The Rat Pack, Pall Malls, Marilyn Monroe, and Brigette Bardot, of sizzling hard living, unfiltered cigarettes, and smoking hot women, the Conn 6H found its niche. It was great on ballads, and very good in big bands. The 48H may have been arguably better than a 6H for big band section work and solos, but the 48H typically did not lend itself to that 6H smokey sound at slower tempos and softer dynamics. Hence, the King 2B remained and remains to be popular, the 6H is grieved for, and both somewhat eclipse the Conn 48H, if for no great reason.

So what has this all got to do with the OP’s original question? I know of no current production horn that emulates well the Conn 6H. There could be one. Perhaps the closest is the Bach 12. There are a lot of good horns like the Schilke manufactured Greenhoe, the Shires Custom, and perhaps the Bart van Lier trombones. They all better replace the 48H than they do the 6H. If I did not own a good 6H, and I needed “that sound,” before taking up a crusade to find the Holy Grail, I would take my King 2B. Even the 0.480-0.488 bore Bart van Lier trombone, which really does sing, even if it has a different voice, would work. If I were to attempt to fill the demand of 6H and 48H trombones, and could not live with a Bach 12, I would probably use my King 2B and Shires Custom 0.500 inch bore, respectively. Before your sword clears your scabbard, please take a listen to Andrew Williams and Bret Steed playing Conn 4H and King 2B trombones on YouTube.

Peas.

I'd love to play the 2 Greenhoe horns to see how they compare. 6H and 48H are both extremely tough to beat.

My M&W model 210-2Y-GN outplays my late 60's 6H in every way.

I would probably look towards M&W, Greenhoe and Rath, maybe Kühnl & Hoyer. And I have heard the Shires MG could be close.

But if you want a "better" (mechanically?) 6h or 48h that's as close as possible to the original, look for a better 6h or 48h or maybe have yours restored, e.g. inner slide replacement.

I am totally convinced that the makers above make instruments that are great and may even be generally speaking better. But somehow the character is probably most present with the original.

My 6H had the inners replaced. It is the best one i have had. If it weren’t for Trombone Chat, I would have never known of M&W, or much less, today, that M&W make a small bore trombone. A big thank you to Trombone Chat and the administrators.

jawbone62 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 2:05 am Which modern horns, in your view, play most like: i) Conn 48H and ii) Conn 6H?
Thanks

I think it's a Getzen .500 bore.

Thanks for all the responses. I certainly like the look of the Greenhoe (the two models on their site seem to pay hommage to both the 6H and the 48H) and M&W models, but has anyone here actually played them?

Keith Hilson has a YouTube video on them for Schmitt Music.

jawbone62 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 4:43 am Thanks for all the responses. I certainly like the look of the Greenhoe (the two models on their site seem to pay hommage to both the 6H and the 48H) and M&W models, but has anyone here actually played them?

I've played the Greenhoe Y at a conference. Really smooth horn. Open and easy. I'd say it's way better than your average 6h.

Many thanks. Those Keith Hilson videos are really helpful. Very tempting

I owned and played a nickel silver bell greenhoe it was awesome loved the gold brass outers and quick response , was a suped up modern 48h type vibe

The Greenhoe horns are awesome. I played one for about a year. It’s more like a 6H or 48H with some 2B and Urbie Green DNA. The slide crook is def King style. Ultimately I wanted a bigger blow, a fatter sound (especially down low), and needed a screw bell for constant travel so moved to a Yamaha 891ZD. At the time Schilke wasn’t making screw bells but I think they are now.

Can't be done

Why not just get a 48H and play it? There’s no shortage of them out there. You could probably buy 2 or 3 of them for the price you’ll pay for a new horn. If that’s what you like to play, and you sound good on it, that’s all that matters.

To be kinda crass about it, if the 48H or 6H was providing the sound everybody wanted, Conn would still be making them.

Conn effectively replaced the 6H with the 100H, although the Minick version seems to be more popular.

chromebone wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 6:41 am Why not just get a 48H and play it? There’s no shortage of them out there. You could probably buy 2 or 3 of them for the price you’ll pay for a new horn. If that’s what you like to play, and you sound good on it, that’s all that matters.

Your heart is in the right place. I just searched reverb. There were no 48h trombones listed. The last listing was 4 years old. Unless it was damaged or seriously overpriced, it may have gotten snatched up pretty quickly. A college student might graduate before they acquired one. I have a 79H with a slide that i would put up against a new Shires or Schilke. It is doubtful if it came from the factory like that. If player gets into a repair, whether to correct damage history or Conn wear, they may be well on the way to the price of a new or newer trombone. And at least some of the newer examples may be lighter, if a repetitive use injury is presenting itself. Yes. A Conn 48H is still a good choice. A new or newer one may be justifiable.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:15 am To be kinda crass about it, if the 48H or 6H was providing the sound everybody wanted, Conn would still be making them.

Conn effectively replaced the 6H with the 100H, although the Minick version seems to be more popular.

I really don't believe that. Those models effectively died in the move to Abilene, and their replacements were less popular. Dropping those models among others was the start of a real decline for Conn. The only 500 bore bones that sold in 6h quantities have been student models. The 100h can't compare to 6h or 48h, and the Minick horn was not made in sufficient quantities to compare.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:51 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:15 am To be kinda crass about it, if the 48H or 6H was providing the sound everybody wanted, Conn would still be making them.

I really don't believe that. Those models effectively died in the move to Abilene, and their replacements were less popular. Dropping those models among others was the start of a real decline for Conn.

You both could be right. Conn had not updated the 6H since 1937. Sales of the King 2B and 3B were robust. If 6H tooling was shared with the Bach 12, and King 2B+, and/or the move to Abilene exceeded the original budget, the 6H would end up on the chopping block, especially if Conn under valued the popularity of the 6H. It is a little hard to easily determine if Conn Selmer is wholly owned or publicly traded at this point. The bread and butter revenue has always been dominated by student instrument sales.

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:45 am. The bread and butter revenue has always been dominated by student instrument sales.

Well, kinda, Conn didn't have a student line until the 60s.

I'm sure the move to Abilene was a corporate decision to save money and maximize profits, but it backfired.

Then Chinese imports effectively destroyed the market for American made student instruments... and lots of other things. It's all about profit, not quality.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:42 pm Well, kinda, Conn didn't have a student line until the 60s.

Pan-American was a Conn subsidiary from the mid-to-late 19-teens to 1930 (it was absorbed back into Conn around 1930) and Conn continued production and sale of Pan-American models for another 20 years after that. I don't know that Pan-American was definitively targeted as a "student" line instrument, but it was certainly Conn's lower price point instruments.

The Conn Loyalist has an 18H Director (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn18H1958image.html) with a production year of 1958 and advertising quotes from 1956. So the "Director" line of student instruments definitely predates 1960. (Incidentally, the Director trombone had 0.484 inch slide bores rather than 0.500 back then.)

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:34 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:42 pm Well, kinda, Conn didn't have a student line until the 60s.

Pan-American was a Conn subsidiary from the mid-to-late 19-teens to 1930 (it was absorbed back into Conn around 1930) and Conn continued production and sale of Pan-American models for another 20 years after that. I don't know that Pan-American was definitively targeted as a "student" line instrument, but it was certainly Conn's lower price point instruments.

Several of the big companies used "cadet" brands to separate their lower-priced offerings from their professional lines in the consumer's mind. It's a balancing act; you want people to identify your cadet brand with your company, but you also want them to think that paying the extra money for the main brand is worth it if they can afford it.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:42 pm

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:45 am. The bread and butter revenue has always been dominated by student instrument sales.

Well, kinda, Conn didn't have a student line until the 60s.

You are absolutely correct.