TromboneChat

Tell us what your long tone routine is, if you have one. Is it part of your warmup for 2 minutes or less? Is it something you emphasize? Do you do them as substantive practice? And what do you do?

I do this, every day, as the beginning of my warmup.

As an adult beginner on trombone after having many years experience on saxophone long tones are an integral part of my practice. I start with a couple minutes of mouthpiece buzzing then play low notes on the trombone. Then a slow one octave F scale from low F. Then G one octave, then A, through to middle F. 60 bpm. If I have a flub note I start that scale again. The I practice lip slurs, two notes then three note slurs. I don’t do anything very complicated because I can’t do anything complicated, so there ya go.

Long tones with an air attack and a focused crescendo up to almost ff are sooo important to the trigger register for me. They are how I start my day, beginning with B-flat on top of the staff and doing root-fifth-root downward, repeating by half-steps a full octave down, ending on the double-trigger B-flat (repeating any that are unacceptable). The air attack seems to help ensure everything is lined up properly, and the crescendo up to almost ff with a vibrant sound (some edge but no spread) warms up / focuses / strengthens the foundational muscles. Keeping the pitch steady during the crescendo is good practice too, but my primary focus is on getting a vibrant color.

Only takes a few minutes, although I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to do more. Steady mf doesn't work for me though - the crescendo is key. I use a metronome when I can (and imagine one when I can't) so that the first note of every group speaks on time.

There’s a page of long tones from the Kleinhammer book that I do. I add some lower notes. I also borrow from Faulise and play some notes in alternate positions, including trigger positions, trying to match sound and intonation.

I recall someone discouraging long tones at the beginning of a warmup, the idea being the cold muscles are held under stress in static positions.

When my tone starts sounding bad, it reminds me that my chops are getting weak and I need to do long tones. Sometimes I listen for the timber and try to keep it constant. Sometimes I'll listen with a tuner, but I think these two things are measuring the same thing. If the timber waivers, the pitch is waivering too.

I did these a lot when I was making my comeback. I mainly just do ascending scales or arpeggios/intervals.

Here's a question for you, @tbdana, how have you made such a huge comeback in such a short amount of time? What percent of original did you make it back to? You were kind of toying with us for a while.

Long tones are not nearly the gift that teachers tend to make them out to be. Once I got schooled about the lip slurs routines from Brad Edwards, which combine sustained playing with constant changes of pitch and very little articulations, I basically abandoned long tones altogether. With Brad Edwards, you can get the same benefits to your tone as with long tones, but you also get repeated exposure to changing the pitch quickly with the air/embouchure/tongue shape, and maintaining it for a moment (as the exercise dictates), and then repeating it with a different pitch. It's also far less boring.

If you treat the slur exercises like they are long tones, even though the "tone" part changes throughout the "long", the benefit is equivalent in quality but greater in quantity.

There is a very good variation from Lindberg that is maybe a precursor to Edwards' routines, and the pattern is (in Bb) (hold. Repeat) (hold a little) (hold. Repeat back to previous repeat) (hold a little) (hold. Repeat back to previous repeat) (hold a little) (hold. Repeat back to previous repeat)

And then you move down to E, and so on.

There is another version called "warm-up from hell" that goes painstakingly through this same process, and then starts over again on a higher partial, and keeps going until you are going up to a Bb5. It's not really a warm up, it's actually a training regimen to make it so that F5 is played intuitively with the same "setting" as F3, but I think that that goal was more in spirit rather than actual execution (ie, you don't really play F5 like F3). In any case it certainly got Lindberg his 56 high Fs and 2 Gb's in Troorkh. It helped me get my few F5s that I need in any given day.

I'm just an amateur so I don't have time for long tones (; Same as for free and mouthpiece buzzing. I see them as a waste of my limited practise time. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I think you won't change my mind (:

When practising, usually I'm just playing some etudes or similar stuff (like eg. Rochut or Bach cello Suites, some other challenging piece or whatever I feel like at this day), I think with this many things are trained at the same time in a fun way. But things I practise as well at a regular basis but not daily are things like scales over full range, natural slurs, clarke, arban, or other stuff. If I feel some part of my playing is particularly lacking at a day I can put special focus on this eg. if my attack is not clean I neglect legatos and try to get every note clean, other way around, if my legato is lacking I try to get everything as a nice legato. Or I might work on low range -> Go down an octave, or I might work on tempo -> I practise with a click. For this of course I need to choose an appropriate etude for what I want to focus on.

I never had particular problems with sustaining long notes, I feel like this does not train me a lot. If I'm holding a note for lets say 10 s even on bad days I can use for example the first second to set up embouchure air etc. After that I feel the remaining 9s are just a matter of holding everything and waiting until the note is over. Of course for example when playing high or something it can get tiring as well, but I think I could have used this time better.

As mentioned above, I'm just an amateur so probably I'm doing everything wrong (:

After a very short mouthpiece warm-up I typically do some long tones combined with slurs and relatively quickly get across appr. a 3 octave range on the horn, sometimes less sometimes more. Ideally (typically 4-5 times a week) I am ending my practice day with 15-25 minutes of classical long tones across the full range. Kind of Phil Teele-style, both low and high range. If I only have 20 minutes to practice that is often the only thing I do. It gives me a good degree of stability and efficiency. And it's sometimes a good option for brainless practice late at night

My warmup is pretty similar to what you have posted, tbdana.

I usually start on F in the staff and work my way outwards with lip slurs such as you have posted. Two comments:

1. I do a very brief warmup in the morning, then come back later in the day for a full practice session. I find this helps undo any chapping or tightness I woke up with. Some long tones and lip slurs, 8 bars of a tune that's buzzing around in my head, no more than 5 minutes or so. When I come back hours later for a practice session, it only takes a note or to be be really ready to practice. If my practice time is the first playing of the day, it takes maybe twenty minutes to get the chops feeling really flexible.


2. While we spend a lot time talking about warming up the embouchure, we play little attention to warming up the tongue. So my warmup includes a simple tongue wake-up: Starting on B-flat atop the staff, Half notes, quarters, eighths, etc, all the way to double and triple tongue. Down to A natural, repeat. Follow the pattern down to low F.

Hmmm.. It occurs to me that I could add some legato warmups as well.

All my teachers were from the Remington teaching tree so I definitely did “the” long tones. It was probably the first 15 years of my playing that always started with that middle Bb series.

When I stopped playing full time my practice time became much rarer and more valuable so the long tones faded from prominence.

I think they are a great developmental tool for younger players when playing 8 beats in one breath with a solid sound can be very hard. At a certain point playing a long note becomes meditation. (And meditation is awesome when the luxury of time presents itself.) I don’t have the most settled mind so I had to do all sorts of mental gymnastics and use of drones and metronomes to keep focus in the last years of long tone playing.

My practice today is to free buzz a wide range, mouthpiece buzz a wider range (for me, on the mouthpiece, I find the places where I get stuck between notes and am able to smooth them out before I get on the horn for the day) then play a no tongue scale from middle Bb to super Bb and back down to at least pedal Bb.

If it feels necessary I sometimes go through the free-mp-horn cycle a few times starting with a smaller register and gradually expanding over a few cycle. But when I’m in a practice groove I’m usually good to go, and the routine described above leaves me feeling every bit as ready to go as the 50 minute daily routine I was brought up on.

I wouldn’t mind doing long tones I suppose, but the starts only align for about 30 minutes of total practice most days, so I gotta get after it and push the edges of my abilities as much as possible as quickly as possible.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:53 pm Here's a question for you, @tbdana, how have you made such a huge comeback in such a short amount of time? What percent of original did you make it back to? You were kind of toying with us for a while.

This is a thread hijack, but I'm sure others go through this same comeback process, so I'll play.

Glib answer preserving the thread: Long tones!

More serious answer: I think "muscle memory" both for the chops and the brain make coming back a faster process than learning from scratch. And I think the muscle memory of the brain is the most important part of that. It's easier to relearn something when you already have a vision of having done it. That way the only learning to do is the actual physical exercise of getting in shape.

The hard truth: It comes back surprisingly quickly...to a point. After that point it becomes extremely difficult, and because of natural deterioration as a result of aging, I doubt I will ever get all the way back. In fact, I'm sure of it. I don't do anything as well as I did in my 20s and 30s. LOL!

As for percentage, that's hard to say. I'm gonna say 50% back, though that's a bit arbitrary. And honestly, deep down I feel like a terrible player who is pretending to play well and can do it well enough to fool people. To be candid, there's not a quarter note I feel I can play well. I'm dissatisfied with everything I play. It's all flawed, it all falls short. I feel kind of like this:

Hopefully this isn't going to devolve into a shouting match of "long tones bad" vs "long tones good"... For those capable of greater nuance, I will say that I think static long tones, especially at a medium dynamic, are not very beneficial except for undeveloped players. It's like bench pressing 0 pounds/kg - it would take a thousand reps to do much of anything. It's ok when you're feeling especially stiff (or getting back on the wagon), but the cost/benefit for developed/active players is quite low IMO.

Pushing the dynamic toward both extremes, particularly the loud end, with good color/pitch/control, is where I find long tones to be more helpful, especially in the trigger register. It requires effort to control a pp or ff note with good color and pitch. A steady, even crescendo from pp to ff requires even more effort/control. It also builds my mental connection to the sound, and that's a muscle that always needs work - starting my day with this is as much about the mental warmup as the physical.
I also think it balances my low chops between the "too broad" sound (losing core/focus and/or getting ragged when loud, usually from playing too much FF stuff) vs "too tight" (dead-sounding / losing vibrancy and limited max volume, usually from playing too much mp/mf stuff).

TomInME wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:24 am I think static long tones, especially at a medium dynamic, are not very beneficial except for undeveloped players. It's like bench pressing 0 pounds/kg - it would take a thousand reps to do much of anything. It's ok when you're feeling especially stiff (or getting back on the wagon), but the cost/benefit for developed/active players is quite low IMO. ... Pushing the dynamic toward both extremes, particularly the loud end, with good color/pitch/control, is where I find long tones to be more helpful

Well, I have to disagree. I think static long tones are extremely beneficial.

I also disagree about the "loud end" usefulness. I find playing long tones very softly is highly beneficial. As Ralph Sauer said, "when you have to play soft that's when you find out who can really play." And as Bill Watrous said a little less elegantly, "any asshole can play loud." Doing long tones as soft as you can is a phenomenal exercise in air stream, embouchure, and control.

You didn't think we'd all agree with you, did you? Some of us are just contrary!

I'd have to agree with Tom. I'd say they're like bench pressing 50 pounds with the worst form imaginable- you're doing something, but nothing good. Before I got some semblance of efficiency and what I would call a "real" embouchure, long tones were just an exercise in futility. I certainly didn't get to a good setup by sitting and playing long tones, I got there with the help of Doug and playing lots of slurs.

Now, with what is inching ever closer to a real, stable setup, long tones are pretty helpful in many ways. But I personally did not find that to be the case before a certain point.

That learning curve is great. Having given up tuba and euph at this point, I'm (recently) at "Oh here we go!" with bass trombone. But I think I may end up taking a shortcut to "I can't believe I thought I knew what I was doing." Possibly if I were a quarter century younger, it would be different. But it's still fun.

I have "sort of" a long tone exercise that I call "Exploring pppppppp" where you start soft with air, no tongue, diminuendo from p, fading until it's just air, and then fade back in to p.

When it comes to working on the loud end of things with crescendo and diminuendo, I like to combine that in an exercise that also includes slurring and tonguing.

No time wasted - work on multiple things at the same time. The mechanics of moving plus response.

In the last years of my degree I started with a loooong long tone routine, if you do it properly it takes an hour.
It's split into two 30min blocks or 4, 15min block (depending on how you split up your sessions for practice).

It is as follows:
start a drone on (Bb) playing at p or pp you play 4 beats then slurr to a

4 beats to breath then
4 beats to breath then
4 beats to breath then
4 beats to breath then
4 beats to breath then
4 beats to breath then

Stop and move the drone a semi- tone Lower to A and repeat with the A major scale.

Move the drone a semi- tone higher to B natural and repeat the scale.

Keep moving the drone and pattern up and down in semi tones untill your you get to the halfway point staring on and then you take a break.


After the break start where you left off. Untill you have played Bb scale to high Bb and Bb starting on Pedal Bb.

It's important you do it with the drone.
The drone so you can work on tuning.
For example C as a major 2nd is in a different slide position than C if it's the 4th of the chord. So this way you play every note in every chord position against the root of every chord.
And it keeps you from moving the pitch while playing so soft.

All slurs should be lip slurs where possible, use the valve and alternative positions.

This excesise comes from Shannon Pittaway, former Basstrombone of the Singapore Symphony and now Basstrombone with the New Zealand Symphony.

I alternated this every 2nd day with a routine that comes from Eric Klay, former Basstrombone of the Melbourne Symphony.

Starting on start the Bb with no tongue, and with the smallest amount of air possible until the note just bearly vibrates on the lips. pppp. Hold the note as long as you can (20 - 40 seconds) take a short break (12 beats or so) and then play an then then flat then and do that until you can't go any lower or higer.


These excersise take forever but had a big impact on my playing ability at the time.

I will do one of them now once a week, I don't have the luxury of time like I used to.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:21 am I also disagree about the "loud end" usefulness. I find playing long tones very softly is highly beneficial. As Ralph Sauer said, "when you have to play soft that's when you find out who can really play." And as Bill Watrous said a little less elegantly, "any asshole can play loud." Doing long tones as soft as you can is a phenomenal exercise in air stream, embouchure, and control.

You didn't think we'd all agree with you, did you? Some of us are just contrary!

Any asshole can play loud badly - in fact, most do. Few assholes can play loud with a good, controlled sound - because it takes work, and it's easier to just blatt and not do the work. If you're usually amplified like some players are, you don't need it, but playing acoustic, trying to balance big band lead trumpets who have real power and/or an orchestral section that really puts it out there, requires a lot of work on a quality loud sound, especially for the trigger register.

Soft long tones do have value, but I think Doug's method would have more value than just sitting on a soft note. I use a crescendo to cover both ends.

I don't think we're really disagreeing that much - I did mention medium dynamics as being part of the problem. Mezzo long tones are what I think are mostly useless for players who already have that foundation - they're not detrimental, but I don't think they are challenging enough to provide enough benefit to justify the time spent.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:38 am I have "sort of" a long tone exercise that I call "Exploring pppppppp" where you start soft with air, no tongue, diminuendo from p, fading until it's just air, and then fade back in to p.

This exercise really helped me a lot!

I just picked up an edition of Cichowicz Fundamentals (arranged from the Trumpet version). While not exactly long tones, Vince called them moving long tones or something like that. They are mid to low range scale/arpeggio exercises in legato with some short legato tunes and finally capped off with some detached tunes. They are certainly in the "spirit" of long tones, and I've been enjoying playing some of these at the end of my routine. They just make my chops feel good, and really get me thinking about sound. Some prominent trombonists who have an association with Chicago area brass studies contribute some thoughts on the exercises and the approach.

Jim Scott

I don't know any great players who don't incorporate long tones into their daily routine. You can get by for awhile without them but as you age and your body changes good luck.

I have always done long notes. Remington warm up, scales. Chords, lip slurs, difficult passages. I like it and grow up with long notes. I think it should be done with a purpouse. Maybe for practise straight notes to different kinds of vibrato, different dynamic, articulation. Sometimes just to feel you can form the notes like you want. Sometimes just for intonation, or just to start notes when you want. In short be in control. I can see long notes can harm us if we just do it because somebody told its good to do so.

When you do long notes you have time to listen your sound.


Leif

Slurs seem way more important, and tongued slurs even more. When those work, everything seems to work.

Even if nothing else were true, you still have to be able to maintain a pitch without sounding like you're chewing a bad steak. A steady tone is hard to achieve if you're not listening for it. If you're listening to someone else who can't hold a steady tone, the first thing you notice is that intonation wanders all over the place on a single pitch.

Slurs are important too, but I've heard people do slurs in such a way that the intonation wobbles before and after the slur. It's like you can hear them preparing for it, but ignoring the effect the preparation is having on the intonation and chops in general. Long tones really help you focus.

When Ralph Sauer visited our Bones Southwest trombone choir rehearsal some years ago, he said he had recently participated in some kind of experiment where he did a tremendous amount of long tone playing.

He said that, after the extensive long tone playing, he never felt worse.

I have to admit I’ve never experienced the benefits that many claim for long tones.

I mostly use long tones for warmup rather than as a practice exercise. I typically find that I feel sufficiently warm after doing remingtons from low b flat to the f above the bass staff

I am extremely new at this and long tones seem to be one thing I can do with some consistency. Based on numerous recommendations I've seen on this board I just received a copy of the Remington Exercises, and will be delving into that at my next lesson later this week. I'm finding this challenging, in a good way.

Another great 'long tone' exercise: the James Stamp routine (just transcribe the trumpet book for using with trombone....or, look at the first exercise in Bob McChesney's Technique book; it's the same Stamp exercise with a slight variation at the beginning) Good enough for Doc Severinson, Wayne Bergeron, Malcom McNab in order to keep them at the top of their game!

The exercise is basically an arpeggio going down an octave, with a slight deviation in it. The original Stamp routine has you starting on middle Bb, but why not start where you feel it's best to start for your embouchure or how stiff you may feel from a previous hard day of playing.

When I do the routine, I like to start a little higher on this exercise for my embouchure type as diagnosed by Doug Elliott. Then, I can focus on mouthpiece pivot, breath/instrument air column, and good sound.

A couple of useful things we can work on during long tone playing are: 1) intonation checks, and 2) dynamic variance (getting louder and/or softer). And of course the two together, to ensure our pitch remains steady as volume changes.

I haven't really done traditional "long tones" in a while, but I think mainly because I prefer to be more mentally focused on achieving a task for an exercise than "play a note with good sound for x seconds". I'm working on playing with a good sound with good time all the time anyway. So, what would I be adding that is unique to doing a long tone exercise beyond that? If it's dynamics, that's practicing dynamics, not static long tones. If it's rhythmic accuracy for starting and ending a note, there are better ways to organize that.

Even if for some reason I end up doing something that resembles a "long tone" that's usually not how I would describe to someone else what I'm trying to accomplish.