TromboneChat

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It is sad.

OneTon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 7:01 amIt is sad.

Retiring close to the top of your game after a 60+ year career at the very top of your profession is far from sad.

I think this is amazing. I was still at school when Jay started with the CSO. I'm still playing but never anywhere near his level of performance or with the level of pressure that comes with that sort of job. Much respect and many thanks for what he has given to music in general and trombone playing in particular.

Cheers

Stewbones43

About time.

Hopefully they'll actually select someone.

A remarkable career. I hope he is in good health.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:34 am Hopefully they'll actually select someone.

"ONLY HIGHLY QUALIFIED APPLICANTS SHOULD APPLY"

No doubt that phrase means something different than it did when a 23 year old Friedman won the job in 1962. His resume probably said "I went to college for composition and was in the Chicago Civic symphony and Florida orchestra. Thanks"

I imagine the selection is going to be unimaginably arduous. Or ... They already know who the would like to have.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:21 am

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:34 am Hopefully they'll actually select someone.

"ONLY HIGHLY QUALIFIED APPLICANTS SHOULD APPLY"

No doubt that phrase means something different than it did when a 23 year old Friedman won the job in 1962. His resume probably said "I went to college for composition and was in the Chicago Civic symphony and Florida orchestra. Thanks"

I imagine the selection is going to be unimaginably arduous. Or ... They already know who the would like to have.

Back then, you basically studied with the right teacher, and then they’d get you an audition with the conductor when asked for a recommendation. Friedman said he was brought in to cover Assistant principal by his teacher CSO principal Robert Lambert after Byron Peebles left for LA. After a few months, he formally auditioned for Reiner in front of the whole orchestra before a rehearsal playing bass trumpet excerpts. After Lambert left, Jean Martinon appointed him to principal based on his performance as acting principal. Conductors had a lot more individual power over hires and fires than they do now.

A great career for a gentleman and a fine musician.

Congratulations Jay!

chromebone wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:33 am
Back then, you basically studied with the right teacher, and then they’d get you an audition with the conductor when asked for a recommendation. Friedman said he was brought in to cover Assistant principal by his teacher CSO principal Robert Lambert after Byron Peebles left for LA. After a few months, he formally auditioned for Reiner in front of the whole orchestra before a rehearsal playing bass trumpet excerpts. After Lambert left, Jean Martinon appointed him to principal based on his performance as acting principal. Conductors had a lot more individual power over hires and fires than they do now.

Yeah that tracks. I guess it's not really that different then!

He's had an amazing career. I think the time has been right, now, for some years for him to pass that torch on, but this is happening while he's still in that good timing window.

Congrats and hopefully he can do something completely different from the trombone that he's been wanting to do, for many more years.

What a career and what a great musician. Listened to him play bordogni, the best I've ever heard. Always wanted to play in Chicago....but I think I'll skip the audition this time. I haven't received a phone call either?
Joking aside, surely they've figured out a successor? Or some few will be invited?
Anyway, congratulations to Jay Friedman. He will probably still play the trombone. Can't imagine something else.

Leif

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:22 amAbout time.

Geezis, that's harsh.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:04 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:22 amAbout time.

Geezis, that's harsh.

All I’ll say is, in 2020 just before the pandemic, I drove 8 hours to Chicago to take a lesson with him. He was gracious enough to carve out some time out of his busy schedule to fit me in on short notice. He played in the lesson and sounded fantastic. Afterwards, I drove to the hall and heard him play Tchaikovsky 6 in a matinee performance, where he sounded equally fantastic. It was the best single lesson I ever took with anyone, and it totally changed my playing for the better.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:04 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:22 amAbout time.

Geezis, that's harsh.

And I stand by it.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:34 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:04 pm Geezis, that's harsh.

And I stand by it.

That's a bit cryptic, Aidan.
But I don't think I want you to elaborate. I have too much respect for Jay.
Let's just give him the respect and applause that his long career deserves.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:34 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:04 pm

Geezis, that's harsh.

And I stand by it.

Material for yet another "Why does XXX get such a bad rap here?"!

Soon we'll have one such thread for every slightly more recognized trombonist there is. Heck: It could maybe be a sign of a breakthrough to get one's own bad-rap thread here.

So the time seems to have come for the last of the old legends in the brass section of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra to retire. Maybe next year...

Gene Pokorny told in an interview that he heard the CSO for the first time in the 1970s. They played Mahler's 5th Symphony. The person who impressed him the most was exactly Jay Friedman! You can see his work ethic also at rehersals, always highly concentrated, forward on the chair and giving his best. He became more and more concerned with sound throughout his career, and it shows. The master of orchestral trombone sound!

Digidog wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:55 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:34 pm

And I stand by it.

Material for yet another "Why does XXX get such a bad rap here?"!

Soon we'll have one such thread for every slightly more recognized trombonist there is. Heck: It could maybe be a sign of a breakthrough to get one's own bad-rap thread here.

I was thinking more along the lines of a multi-trombonist Zoom call to show our respect and appreciation. Each to his own I suppose.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:31 pm I was thinking more along the lines of a multi-trombonist Zoom call to show our respect and appreciation.

Great idea.
I hope that his CSO mates give Jay a memorable retirement party!

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 3:31 pm

Digidog wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:55 pm

Material for yet another "Why does XXX get such a bad rap here?"!

Soon we'll have one such thread for every slightly more recognized trombonist there is. Heck: It could maybe be a sign of a breakthrough to get one's own bad-rap thread here.

I was thinking more along the lines of a multi-trombonist Zoom call to show our respect and appreciation. Each to his own I suppose.

That is a great idea! If it comes to fruitition I'm all in - if you in that obscure, overseas timezone don't call in the middle of the night, that is....

Now we have to plan for it to work! How do we do it?

I was mostly sarcastic about all the unnuanced critique and counter-critique gushing out in tiresome threads.

People of that generation just have something about them that makes them different. Both of my grandfathers worked basically up until they passed on. One was doing manual labor (farming) at 84 and the other was mayor of the town he was born in at 85. I get that it’s frustrating to young players wanting to earn a living but I also have to give respect to people who have that kind of drive to show up 20-30 years after they could stop working.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 1:34 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:04 pm

Geezis, that's harsh.

And I stand by it.

But why?

What an amazing player and (from what I've seen from him in videos online) an amazing human being as well.

Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn't Mr. Mulcahy take over as principal? He has a better understanding of the Chicago sound than any external applicant would, so he would be better suited to lead the section. It has often puzzled me why the assistant principal doesn't move up to principal when the 1st player steps down. I'm sure there's a reason for that, right?

llama wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:25 am What an amazing player and (from what I've seen from him in videos online) an amazing human being as well.

Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn't Mr. Mulcahy take over as principal? He has a better understanding of the Chicago sound than any external applicant would, so he would be better suited to lead the section. It has often puzzled me why the assistant principal doesn't move up to principal when the 1st player steps down. I'm sure there's a reason for that, right?

Mulcahy has been playing principal often, they never replaced assistant principal James Gilbertson after he retired.
They have a new music director coming in and they likely want to fill the position with a younger player of their choosing. Certainly he and Mr. Vernon will make sure whoever gets the job will be steeped in the Chicago tradition.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:22 amAbout time.

Okay, I'll bite. Why?

Is it, "My astrologer said bad things would happen if that spot didn't open up by the end of Leo"?
Is it, "Dude can't play anymore"?
Is it, "Need to open up the spot for someone younger cuz we got no gigs"?
Is it, "That's my gig, get out of my way"?
Is it, "He said something I didn't like so I wish him ill"?
Or is it something else?

I'd better keep my head down....I'm no Jay Friedman (who is ? This guy is, and has been, on another level from the rest of us) I've only got 40 years with my orchestra but I'm past retirement age. I still enjoy the work . Why on earth should I stop ?? The kids can wait....they won't want to leave when they get older.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:11 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:22 amAbout time.

Okay, I'll bite. Why?

Is it, "My astrologer said bad things would happen if that spot didn't open up by the end of Leo"?
Is it, "Dude can't play anymore"?
Is it, "Need to open up the spot for someone younger cuz we got no gigs"?
Is it, "That's my gig, get out of my way"?
Is it, "He said something I didn't like so I wish him ill"?
Or is it something else?

Yes, asking myself the same thing. Especially because nearly everyone highlights what a great human-being and player Friedman was and still is.

blast wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 11:09 am I'd better keep my head down....I'm no Jay Friedman (who is ? This guy is, and has been, on another level from the rest of us) I've only got 40 years with my orchestra but I'm past retirement age. I still enjoy the work . Why on earth should I stop ?? The kids can wait....they won't want to leave when they get older.

Ditto - about to start year 44, and there won't be too many more than that. My hat's off to Jay, who started playing in the CSO when I was 6 years old! He was part of an inspiring brass section when I was a student and has continued to inspire throughout my entire career. Some may have forgotten that he had to come back from a potential career-ending injury, when a horse that he was training or grooming was startled and moved its head quickly, breaking his jaw. He had a long recovery, and a long time away from the horn, and had to rebuild his playing. He could have retired then, but instead rebuilt his playing and came back stronger.

I have great respect for Jay Friedman, and his part in one of the most consequential and inspiring brass sections in the history of orchestras. I hope that he has a wonderful retirement and is remembered as a great performer and teacher of the trombone.

Jim Scott

My conjecture is that nobody lives forever and Jay probably decided that after a long career it's finally time to hang up the spikes. There comes a time for all of us where what used to be easy is starting to get harder and when you feel you can't contribute at the level you want it's time to move on.

I haven't heard Jay play in quite a few years and have no hard evidence of any degradation of his playing. I hope at some point the reason for Jay to retire is revealed to all of us.

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:45 pm I have great respect for Jay Friedman, and his part in one of the most consequential and inspiring brass sections in the history of orchestras. I hope that he has a wonderful retirement and is remembered as a great performer and teacher of the trombone.

Jim Scott

J Scott wrote:

Some may have forgotten that he had to come back from a potential career-ending injury, when a horse that he was training or grooming was startled and moved its head quickly, breaking his jaw. He had a long recovery, and a long time away from the horn, and had to rebuild his playing. He could have retired then, but instead rebuilt his playing.



I did not know that and would like to know more about it. I wonder sometimes where are all his students, but I suppose many have retired.

I think young players can be forgiven for wanting to put food on the table and being envious of someone whose career spans almost 70 years. That’s a long time to hold onto a job. Jay’s career itself is almost retirement age.

I would love to be a fly on the wall at that audition. I wonder if Vegas is taking bets on the winner.

'Nuff said.

Wonder if they’ll require the new guy/gal to play Rhenish on a Bach 45 for the audition!

OK - a few things to respond to previous posts.

I don't know that much about Jay's injury - it was a long time ago, but as someone else said, his career length alone adds up to an age that most people would retire at, so he probably could have done so then. As I remember, it was his own horse. He has or had a rural property with horses, and that has been a hobby for him. When that news was out there, all of us who were students/young professionals were brushing off the excerpts, but he defied the odds, and came back to work, but I think it was around a year later.

Staying on the job for a long time if you're not playing well can be a drag for the other players. Jay has kept a high standard, and in my opinion has even grown as a player over the years. He obviously still loves it, and seems to have the respect of his colleagues. He has every right to make his own determination as to when he chooses to retire. I think the only outside opinion for him to consider is that of his orchestra - is he still bringing a credible product? As long as that's the case, it's his job until he is ready to leave. Young players need to understand that this is one job - when they hire the new person, only one person will benefit from that, and most of the trombone world aren't really a viable choice for the job (including me at this point).

I'm betting that there will be more than one audition before they find who they want - the Principal Trumpet and Horn jobs went through several attempts. They are looking for a star player, and that orchestra deserves the best they can find. Chicago generally does not screen auditions, so they will be listening to large amounts of players. One of my trumpet-playing friends went to a section audition some time ago, and there were over 200 applicants actually auditioning. The auditions were over multiple days spread out over a few weeks. I would expect the same thing this time.

As far as students, I'll let them speak for themselves, but I don't think Jay maintained a big studio. I do think that he's had some really good players go through his studio, either with him as their primary teacher, or as someone who gave them an occasional lesson. He's also been good about putting out ideas in writing online or in print.

The Rhenish on his 45B (plus the 50 slide!). It used to be standard to play that excerpt on tenor - nobody played alto, especially when travelling (and having to get 2 horns there). It's becoming standard to request certain excerpts on alto/tenor. The audition when Mulcahy won 2nd had the Rhenish (on tenor) and 3rd on Alpine Symphony (also on tenor) specified. I would expect to see alto actually required, since things have changed.

Not CSO related, but my teacher (Ed Herman - former NYP Principal) told me that his audition for NYP Assistant Principal came down to him and another prominent player playing the Rhenish (on tenors) repeatedly. The conductor would have one player come into the room and play it, and then send him out and have the other come in and do the same. As he told the story, "I guess I had one more E flat than the other guy that day."

Jim Scott

I'm fairly sure that Friedman is a staunch advocate of playing the Rhenish on alto, and has been for years, even if he played it on basically a bass in the past.

Is that really what the high level orchestral positions come down to? Playing the Rhenish on tenor to see who cracks first? That's ... interesting...

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 9:06 pm I'm fairly sure that Friedman is a staunch advocate of playing the Rhenish on alto, and has been for years, even if he played it on basically a bass in the past.

Is that really what the high level orchestral positions come down to? Playing the Rhenish on tenor to see who cracks first? That's ... interesting...

That story is from 70 years ago - I wouldn't call it current practice. Back then, there were no audition committees - just the conductor. Also, no audition lists, and sometimes no music - just a conductor calling out tunes to a candidate who was expected to play standard excerpts from memory.

A lot of conductors have very little knowledge of brass instruments, except for remembering passages that they've heard not go well at some point. The modern practices of audition committees, and specific lists, etc. have improved the process, although it can still take a while to get to the player you want with large groups of players to hear. By the way, Jay may not have anything to do with the audition for his replacement - many contracts don't allow for that. I don't know what the CSO agreement says.

JS

I studied with the prominent player who lost the NY Phil job to Ed Herman. He talked about it once in a lesson. It didn’t seem to particularly bother him, there was so much other work in those days; he actually seemed to have preferred the very varied playing and teaching career that he had. I don’t think he would have been happy in the NY Phil, playing the same stuff over and over. It was a different world, and there were so many other options for a good player to forge a meaningful career back then.

All of that is very true - I left out the name because I respect that player too, and didn't want to put out anything that could be interpreted as being a put down of a great trombonist who had a wonderful career - there's already been too much of that sort of thing on this site, including in this thread.

It's really, if anything, an indictment of the conductor at that time. Not really the best way to settle what was basically (in that conductor's mind) a tie between two fine players.

JS

Jay has had a career all but a handful of trombonists only just dream about. I have been very fortunate to have worked with him in lessons, Civic section coachings, brass ensembles, and the CSO. Each time, I came away having learned something and was a better player and musician for it.

He's in his 80s and in good health so I would suggest anyone who is serious about trombone make your way to Chicago for a lesson and be prepared for a couple hours of enlightenment. He's probably forgotten more about trombone and music than most of us will ever know.

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:44 pm ….

I'm betting that there will be more than one audition before they find who they want - the Principal Trumpet and Horn jobs went through several attempts. They are looking for a star player, and that orchestra deserves the best they can find. Chicago generally does not screen auditions, so they will be listening to large amounts of players. One of my trumpet-playing friends went to a section audition some time ago, and there were over 200 applicants actually auditioning. The auditions were over multiple days spread out over a few weeks. I would expect the same thing this time.
…

AND it looks like they need to find another Principal Trumpet as well. Is there something wrong in the water there?

I do wonder about the audition process and hope that it is quite blind. Blind auditions are bad, but the only thing worse is every other method that has been tried.

Cheers,
Andy

If the hiring manager is watching this thread, all I have do say is that I would consider leaving my engineering job if they can't find anyone

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 3:00 pm AND it looks like they need to find another Principal Trumpet as well. Is there something wrong in the water there?

I do wonder about the audition process and hope that it is quite blind. Blind auditions are bad, but the only thing worse is every other method that has been tried.

Yeah, I saw that too. I'm not plugged into the classical scene here in Chicago at all, but someone I know very well is plugged into the trumpet scene, and they mentioned that there's a lot of drama over at the CSO. I don't know what that means, but maybe we'll find out.

My other good friend golfs with Jay Friedman regularly, so maybe I'll hear through the grapevine at some point.

After 5 years in Chicago, CSO Principal Trumpet Esteban Batallán heads to Philly!

https://slippedisc.com/2024/08/just-in- ... l-trumpet/
"Yannick Nézet-Séguin issued a yelp of triumph: ‘From the first moment I heard Esteban play, I knew he was the perfect match for The Philadelphia Orchestra. This is a historic appointment that will have a generational impact on the sound of the Orchestra. We look forward to welcoming Esteban to our Orchestra family and to experiencing his contributions to our work.’

This is a power play, plain and simple. "

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/08/ ... e-vacancy/

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2024 3:00 pm AND it looks like they need to find another Principal Trumpet as well. Is there something wrong in the water there?

I do wonder about the audition process and hope that it is quite blind. Blind auditions are bad, but the only thing worse is every other method that has been tried.

Cheers,
Andy

I can't speak to the day-to-day of the orchestra, but it is my understanding that the previous principal horn, David Cooper, was essentially pushed out of the orchestra before receiving tenure despite endorsements from many of the long-standing brass players. With Jay and Esteban both stepping away shortly after, it does make one wonder...

Not to belittle Jay Friedman's unfortunate accident while "horsing around", but a similar embouchure destroying accident happened to my former teacher at ESM, Donald Knaub. As he described it to me : He was working construction as a Summer job when a scaffolding collapsed. As he turned around instinctively, the end of a 2" X 12" scaffold plank caught him square in the mouth, breaking off most of his front teeth and shredding his lips. He showed me the huge amount of scar tissue behind his lips. It is amazing that he could ever play again, but with determination and hard work he became the beautiful player that I remember. I re-mastered a CD for Don of his former vinyl solo work which I think is still available called "RETREAD". In the liner notes he give a special thanks to his dentist who reconstructed his dental work so that he could accomplish the remarkable comeback. GRIT !!

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:04 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:22 amAbout time.

Geezis, that's harsh.

Some people just cannot help themselves. He's one of them. It takes more self control for some to acknowledge greatness than poke fun of someone's age or longevity. Usually comes from someone who could never sustain a job at that level both physically and mentally. Hence the nasty "X-like" social media quip. We should all be so lucky to earn and keep a job for that long.

I mean, there are literally countries where it's illegal to work for that long, including the Netherlands, South Korea, and Israel. I'm not a propoent of that viewpoint but it isn't exactly a novel opinion. We recently had a thread about Ben van Dikj having a forced retirement, as he is located in the Netherlands.