What's your experience on having bass crook on a (wide) tenor slide? Some of you may for example have compared S.E. Shires TB47 with the TW47. What difference does it make to you. I suppose you will feel some slightly more open feel and broader sound. And maybe less clear. And maybe less responsive to articulation?
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:09 am
by elmsandr
You have a Bach 42. That’s what a Bach 42 slide is.
Cheers,
Andy
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:20 am
by Tomnormann
elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:09 am
You have a Bach 42. That’s what a Bach 42 slide is.
Cheers,
Andy
Really? I did'nt belive the modern Bach 42 slides had a bass bore crook, only a wide tenor bore crook? Anyway, I still don't know how those two crooks differ, everything else equal.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:04 am
by NordicTrombone
This video let's you hear the difference between Shires' bass and tenor crooks:
elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:09 am
You have a Bach 42. That’s what a Bach 42 slide is.
Cheers,
Andy
Really? I did'nt belive the modern Bach 42 slides had a bass bore crook, only a wide tenor bore crook? Anyway, I still don't know how those to crooks differ, everything else equal.
Nope. All 42s have the same crook as the 50. That’s, uh, why the option exists from the boutique makers.
Cheers,
Andy
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 8:19 am
by harrisonreed
The horn is the sum of its parts -- there might be some designs where the bass crook was a good idea even on a tenor (perhaps because of an undersized rotor, like on the 42).
The one time I got to try a bass crook next to a tenor crook was with an Edwards T-350, with everything else being equal. The tenor crook was more responsive and had a clearer sound. But again, it's the sum of the parts.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 8:49 am
by Tomnormann
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 8:19 am
The horn is the sum of its parts -- there might be some designs where the bass crook was a good idea even on a tenor (perhaps because of an undersized rotor, like on the 42).
The one time I got to try a bass crook next to a tenor crook was with an Edwards T-350, with everything else being equal. The tenor crook was more responsive and had a clearer sound. But again, it's the sum of the parts.
Thank you for your considerations. They certainly make sense.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 9:42 am
by Matt K
Depends on the leadpipe, valve, and bell IMO. Played some great 42T style horns. Putting a bass crook on my Conn style at the time bell was not nearly as satisfying. In general, it makes it more "open". If you have too many "open" components, it can actually feel "stuffy."
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:06 am
by Burgerbob
Your O'Malley probably comes with a bass crook standard.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:35 pm
by Tomnormann
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:06 am
Your O'Malley probably comes with a bass crook standard.
I don't know what is standard, but I know I specified bass crook myself (obviously don't know what I'm playing, but at least know what I ordered ). The choice is partly because I thought it would match well with for example the MtV leadpipe, partly because I want my horn to be in line with the original MtV ones.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:54 pm
by harrisonreed
Yes but the O'Malley horn surely won't have the undersized 42B rotor
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:34 pm
by Burgerbob
Those same bass crooks work great on all the 42B variants, not just the OG ones.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:47 pm
by Tomnormann
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:34 pm
Those same bass crooks work great on all the 42B variants, not just the OG ones.
Yes, obviously, because I've had absolutely no reason to complain when it comes to my current set up.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:24 pm
by Tbarh
A Bach 42B standard with a tenor crook ,more open valve and a more open neckpipe would probably be a much better Horn than the one with the standard specs.. BTW!; i see that some boutique makers insist on using nickel slide crooks on Bach style Horns.. That is not a good idea in my opinion.. FWIW !
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:36 pm
by Tomnormann
Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:24 pm
A Bach 42B standard with a tenor crook ,more open valve and a more open neckpipe would probably be a much better Horn than the one with the standard specs.. BTW!; i see that some boutique makers insist on using nickel slide crooks on Bach style Horns.. That is not a good idea in my opinion.. FWIW !
Now we are a bit on the side of what this thread was supposed to be about.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:42 pm
by harrisonreed
Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:24 pm
A Bach 42B standard with a tenor crook ,more open valve and a more open neckpipe would probably be a much better Horn than the one with the standard specs.. BTW!; i see that some boutique makers insist on using nickel slide crooks on Bach style Horns.. That is not a good idea in my opinion.. FWIW !
This is what I was getting at. At least regarding the crook.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:44 pm
by harrisonreed
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:34 pm
Those same bass crooks work great on all the 42B variants, not just the OG ones.
Only if you like Bach 42s. In my case, hard disagree! And also in my case, it doesn't work well on the OG variant either.
Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:24 pm
A Bach 42B standard with a tenor crook ,more open valve and a more open neckpipe would probably be a much better Horn than the one with the standard specs.. BTW!; i see that some boutique makers insist on using nickel slide crooks on Bach style Horns.. That is not a good idea in my opinion.. FWIW !
This is what I was getting at. At least regarding the crook.
Only if you like Bach 42s. In my case, hard disagree! And also in my case, it doesn't work well on the OG variant either.
Only the 42T was any good.
Your horn has a bass crook!
The 396A? Nope. It's a wide crook, but it's tenor specs. I used to think it was a bass crook, too.
But TBF, it's not trying to be a Bach either. Especially past the slide.
Sorry OP. You had said it was "getting on the side of what it was supposed to be about" regarding someone else's point that was only about Bachs. I thought you meant it was going in the right direction.
The 396A? Nope. It's a wide crook, but it's tenor specs. I used to think it was a bass crook, too.
But TBF, it's not trying to be a Bach either. Especially past the slide.
Sorry OP. You had said it was "getting on the side of what it was supposed to be about" regarding someone else's point that was only about Bachs. I thought you meant it was going in the right direction.
I have it from someone associated with the company, take it for what you will.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 4:05 pm
by Danitrb
Tomnormann wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 3:59 am
What's your experience on having bass crook on a (wide) tenor slide? Some of you may for example have compared S.E. Shires TB47 with the TW47. What difference does it make to you. I suppose you will feel some slightly more open feel and broader sound. And maybe less clear. And maybe less responsive to articulation?
Definitely it makes difference! Tenor crook helps for sure high register and makes the sound more focused and bright. Bass crook gives you body and width to the sound, and makes high register bit heavier. This is how it works in general, but effects really depend on your horn setup. It's always about balance.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2024 8:14 pm
by Blabberbucket
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:06 am
Your O'Malley probably comes with a bass crook standard.
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:54 pm
Yes but the O'Malley horn surely won't have the undersized 42B rotor
Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:24 pm
A Bach 42B standard with a tenor crook ,more open valve and a more open neckpipe would probably be a much better Horn than the one with the standard specs.. BTW!; i see that some boutique makers insist on using nickel slide crooks on Bach style Horns.. That is not a good idea in my opinion.. FWIW !
Now we are a bit on the side of what this thread was supposed to be about.
On the contrary ; The introduction of the 42 B (or first,the 45B) was the first time a bass crook were used on a tenor slide . Vincent Bach was a very frugal man and used to adjust his hearing aid when players suggested changes that would increase costs.. The 45B was at the time labeled as a bass and when Bach decided he needed to compete with the 88H he simply combined a 45 slide with a 36 B bell section.. So ; there is really no sonic reason to introduce a bass crook on a tenor slide.. Combined with a bigger width slide the 42 gives a certain bass blow which someone likes.
The narrow neckpipe of the 36 /42 sort of balance out the open crook (for some players). However , with the opportunity to pick and choose parts like You can do with the new makers the need for such a big crook decreases. If You should choose a dual bore 547/562 or use a bass slide (50B) This imbalance would not be present in the same way , but then You would probably choose a mouthpiece or parts to make the sound brighter/smaller/lighter.. If You want to sound like a tenor,it will be much easier to choose tenor equipment .
Trond
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:15 am
by Tbarh
To be more «threadspecific»; I find bass crooks on tenor slide to be a bit diffuse and remove clarity..I do think it add some darkness but This can be obtained by manipulate other parts in the chain..Another thing i notice is that the fortissimo «red sone» comes very abrupt and gives the sound a «dirty complexion» while an 88H keeps on giving (allthough with a snare)..
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:30 am
by Tomnormann
While others don't care for the more open neckpipes, since it's a crucial part on the trombone and affects pitch and slotting more than feel and blow. We cannot say much about the interaction between crook and neckpipe without testing the combinations on the same model.
In any case, I think we can conclude that most people find that a bass bore crook gives a wider sound and a more open feel, while it probably does not affect responsiveness to an noteicable extent (which is also S.E. Shire's experience with the TB47). I am surprised that the difference in sound is as great as we can hear in the clip for Schmidt Music. I think we can ignore the claim that a bass bore crook would cause the sound to break earlier or come more abrupt
When we talk about free-blowing feeling. We do not create sound by actually blowing air through the instrument, but by making the air column in the instrument vibrate by buzzing the lips. We all know that, but it's easy to forget. And the lips cannot buzz without resistance. And if there is no resistance in the instrument, we have to create it with the body, often by narrowing the aperture or tightening the embouchure, which will subsequently ruin the sound. Of course, we can easily regulate and adapt this by changing the mouthpiece and leadpipe, which are probably the actual bottlenecks, independent of the crook and neckpipe.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:11 am
by Tbarh
Tomnormann wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:30 am
While others don't care for the more open neckpipes, since it's a crucial part on the trombone and affects pitch and slotting more than feel and blow. We cannot say much about the interaction between crook and neckpipe without testing the combinations on the same model.
In any case, I think we can conclude that most people find that a bass bore crook gives a wider sound and a more open feel, while it probably does not affect responsiveness to an noteicable extent (which is also S.E. Shire's experience with the TB47). I am surprised that the difference in sound is as great as we can hear in the clip for Schmidt Music. I think we can ignore the claim that a bass bore crook would cause the sound to break earlier or come more abrupt
When we talk about free-blowing feeling. We do not create sound by actually blowing air through the instrument, but by making the air column in the instrument vibrate by buzzing the lips. We all know that, but it's easy to forget. And the lips cannot buzz without resistance. And if there is no resistance in the instrument, we have to create it with the body, often by narrowing the aperture or tightening the embouchure, which will subsequently ruin the sound. Of course, we can easily regulate and adapt this by changing the mouthpiece and mouthpiece, which are probably the actual bottlenecks, independent of the crook and neckpipe.
You wrote ; «I think we can ignore», « I think we can conclude» ..I would suggest that You modify these statements by adding that This is in Your own opinion.. I for one dont think that a bass crook on a tenor slide gives a «wider sound and a more open feel».. For me its more diffuse and uncentered and with less resonance.. I am not alone in This feeling as i know a lot of players opt for either the wide /tenor crook or the narrow Conn style slide when choosing components from Edwards or Shires. As for the neckpipe of the Bach 42 , its the same as on the 36.. Narrow! ..A lot of players using 42 have ordered and use an aftermarket Open neckpipe..
I have spent countless hours testing different trombones and components.. Every change in component makes a difference.. You just have to find the balance that work for You. The process of matching and mixing parts for my «Frankenhorn» have so far been very successful ..This Horn would be useless for anyone using a different mouthpiece than me.. You state that « the mouthpiece and mouthpipe are the actual bottlenecks independant of the crook and neckpipe».. That is in my opinion a too wide definition.. Every part in a Horn is a « bottleneck» .. You just have to find the right combination that gives the right sound!…… For You !!
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2024 2:15 am
by Tomnormann
The modification "I think we can" is subjective enough. I can't be more subjective, as I have no strong personal opinions on bass vs tenor crook. It is, as I write, an attempt to summarize the input we received here. The majority seems to be in line with what S.E. Shires replied when I asked them:
"Basically the big difference playing wise is that it feels like there’s a bit more space and openness to the horn, and the sound has a bit more breadth to it. [...] generally the consensus seems to be that there isn’t a huge loss of ease or articulation with the bass crook, just more space to blow through!"
Sorry that your experiences are not in line with this summary.
You are still right that all the components play a role and that the choice of components depends on how they affect each other. And everyone chooses the parts and the whole that suits their area of use and their personal preferences, which is a matter of taste.
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2024 7:40 am
by Tbarh
When i visited the Shires factory in 1998 Steve Shires blindfolded me Before i started testing.. I ended up with something very different than What i expected looking at specs Before i went over.. Very important to not get hung up in specs and preconceived ideas.. After that experience(and a lot of similar experiences) i have found out a few things that always work and a few things that almost never work.. I have found out that nickel crooks does not work very well in combo with soldered rim Bach style bells,but work very well with unsoldered rim Conn style bells. I have also found that bass crook on tenor slides is not for me.. I do not like very tight leadpipes .. Apart from these things i am Totally clueless as to What kind of sound a Horn with a given set of specs gives me until i have gotten it confirmed by actuall trying it.. One persons dark can be another persons bright..
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:35 am
by hornbuilder
"for me"
Re: Bass crook on tenor slide?
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:57 am
by Tbarh
hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:35 am
"for me"
). The choice is partly because I thought it would match well with for example the MtV leadpipe, partly because I want my horn to be in line with the original MtV ones.
