TromboneChat

On my Benge 165, I'm finding the slide starts to bind after about 20 minutes of playing. A little water helps for about 10 minutes. By the time I pick it up the next day, it seems ok again. I've tried Slide-o-Mix and Monster slide cream, and this issue happens with both. Is this an alignment issue, or do I just need to suck it up and clean my horn more often? My 2b and my bass don't do this.

Your slide needs attention from a good tech. You cannot clean and lubricate yourself out of this hole.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2024 8:22 am Your slide needs attention from a good tech. You cannot clean and lubricate yourself out of this hole.

That's what I was thinking. Just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

I like how they always say it's an alignment issue without any evidence.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:52 am I like how they always say it's an alignment issue without any evidence.

The symptoms described indicate that it needs some attention by somebody who understands how trombones work. If the slide is binding, there is probably something wrong with it and you should know that. Alignment is a catchall term for "take it to a tech".

Did you buff out the outer tubes and clean it?

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:52 am I like how they always say it's an alignment issue without any evidence.

That's fair. I guess the real question becomes, is there any steps I should take to try to resolve this before taking it to someone?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:41 am Did you buff out the outer tubes and clean it?

Rod and cheese cloth.

Yeah you might need to use a brass polish. I've used the Slide Dr. Compound as a follow-up as well.

A tech would be able to tell what's actually going on, but if you can't see any specific damage I would try that.

flyingcow wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:58 am

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:52 am I like how they always say it's an alignment issue without any evidence.

That's fair. I guess the real question becomes, is there any steps I should take to try to resolve this before taking it to someone?

I wasn't trying to pick on you. I've just heard a lot of people say they have an alignment issue when they really have no idea if that's the case. There could be an alignment issue, but it could also be a matter of corrosion inside the slide tubes. If you've already swabbed it out and are still having problems, I don't think there's much you can do by yourself.

flyingcow wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:58 am

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:52 am I like how they always say it's an alignment issue without any evidence.

That's fair. I guess the real question becomes, is there any steps I should take to try to resolve this before taking it to someone?

I have a legacy counterweight King 2B that i was to the point of taking to a tech. Rehearsals were turning into a two fisted fight with the slide, using Yamaha lubricant. I cleaned the inners and outers with Dawn and applied Trombotine. I had dissed Trombotine on this site before. The 2B slide shaped up. I only have to clean it once a week. That horn makes it out of the house more often than any other, now. I occasionally wipe the inners and re-apply the Trombotine and more often spray water on it. If “Dawn and Trombotine” don’t work, then I would take it to a shop. I prefer shops that use a granite machinists table to check tubes for being straight.

A surface plate is not a table.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:44 am

flyingcow wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:58 am

That's fair. I guess the real question becomes, is there any steps I should take to try to resolve this before taking it to someone?

I wasn't trying to pick on you. I've just heard a lot of people say they have an alignment issue when they really have no idea if that's the case. There could be an alignment issue, but it could also be a matter of corrosion inside the slide tubes. If you've already swabbed it out and are still having problems, I don't think there's much you can do by yourself.

I'll give it one more good cleaning, and if no change, time to set up an appointment. Thanks!

---and pick on me all you want!

The note that it starts to bind AFTER 20 minutes of playing makes it difficult (nothing is impossible) to believe that it is an alignment problem.

Either the lube is gumming up somehow, or perhaps there are remnants of cleaning rag down in the crook that eventually work themselves up into the stockings? It wouldn't take much 'chaff' to really jam up a slide.

My thought is that you have too much cream in there. Once the water drains down and out the water key, you care back to a gummy slide.

IME using lubes other than Slide-O-Mix on a slide that has previously been lubricated with Slide-O-Mix, without removing all traces of the Slide-O-Mix first, can result in exactly the type of issue you're describing.

Polishing the insides of the outer tubes, followed by Dawn and a snake brush (go easy on the Dawn, a drop or two goes a long way), finished with a denatured alcohol swabbing to remove any remaining residue (even 90% isopropyl works fine) may resolve your issue.

I second the recommendation of Trombone and water! Ditch the Slide-O-Mix on a slide of this vintage.

blap73 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:43 pm The note that it starts to bind AFTER 20 minutes of playing makes it difficult (nothing is impossible) to believe that it is an alignment problem.

Actually, I have worked on MANY slides that worked extremely well with slide cream for about 20-30 minutes and then they would start to bind. On quite a few of these it actually WAS the alignment. That’s why I do extensive play tests on all of the trombones that I work on.

About a month ago, I had a Benge 190 come through the shop. After giving it a chem clean, removing numerous dents and aligning the slide, I lubed the slide and took it for a test drive. The slide worked extremely well. I did some other things for a while, came back to the horn and played it some more……that’s when the slide stated to bind. Thinking it was just grit in the slide, I swabbed the slide and went through the process again. Same results……the slide was fantastic and then would start to drag after about 30-40 minutes of playing.

I started my slide alignment diagnostic process again and discovered that there was a slight bend (probably only 3 or 4 thousandths of an inch) at the stocking of one of the inner slides. After making that straight, the slide was incredible and could go for hours without any deterioration in the action.

So, as Brad has already stated, you should not assume that a problem like this is a slide alignment issue……and……you should not assume that it is NOT an alignment issue.

So I dug in a bit more to it. Down by one of the stockings, I noticed a very faint, but kinda big section that was a little dull. It was very hard to see, but it came off with a little rubbing. So another round of Dawn and tepid water with a little extra attention to that spot, and now I have a happy slide again. Sometimes guck is sneaky!

I have seen the early Yamaha lubricant do that on two different horns. It can be frustrating. And it took more than Dawn to get it off. Glad it is working.

I have the same issue coming up after 20 min of playing when I oiled the valves with valve oil inside. The valve oil is running down the lower inner slide tube (out of the valve tubes) and interfering with the slide cream. That‘s causing slide stickiness after a certain period of playing. Since I use a very light valve oil for inside valve tube oiling the problem disappears.

SLIDE FUNCTION ,

My older Conn Director ( longer slide ), than my KING TROMBONE , it was out of alignment a bit , put it on a board with outer part of slide a couple inches down , board almost vertical , just some angle to be safe . TORCH ed the inner tubes a very little bit close to where the mouth piece goes , and the other end attaches to the BELL . ...... and presto , much better now .

I am selling this Trombone , no room for 2 , and my Trumpet .

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 5:35 pm

blap73 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:43 pm The note that it starts to bind AFTER 20 minutes of playing makes it difficult (nothing is impossible) to believe that it is an alignment problem.

Actually, I have worked on MANY slides that worked extremely well with slide cream for about 20-30 minutes and then they would start to bind. On quite a few of these it actually WAS the alignment. That’s why I do extensive play tests on all of the trombones that I work on.

About a month ago, I had a Benge 190 come through the shop. After giving it a chem clean, removing numerous dents and aligning the slide, I lubed the slide and took it for a test drive. The slide worked extremely well. I did some other things for a while, came back to the horn and played it some more……that’s when the slide stated to bind. Thinking it was just grit in the slide, I swabbed the slide and went through the process again. Same results……the slide was fantastic and then would start to drag after about 30-40 minutes of playing.

I started my slide alignment diagnostic process again and discovered that there was a slight bend (probably only 3 or 4 thousandths of an inch) at the stocking of one of the inner slides. After making that straight, the slide was incredible and could go for hours without any deterioration in the action.

I'm enlightened! So, any theory on why the binding get worse after some use? Lube getting wiped off, or breaking down, or getting overheated in the area of the bend?

I've had that experience with an otherwise perfect slide.
It sounds to me like surplus valve oil running down the inner slide tube (as mentioned before).
I now oil the valve after playing, not before and let it stand with a bit of rolled paper towel stuffed the slide receiver to soak up the draining oil.
If you've overdone the oiling, change paper towel a couple of times.
Also make sure that any oil that may have found its way into the F attachment has been drained by opening the valve and holding it open for a minute or so while holding the bell section in a way that will facilitate drainage.
I've had no problems since doing it this way.

blap73 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2024 4:13 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 5:35 pm

Actually, I have worked on MANY slides that worked extremely well with slide cream for about 20-30 minutes and then they would start to bind. On quite a few of these it actually WAS the alignment. That’s why I do extensive play tests on all of the trombones that I work on.

About a month ago, I had a Benge 190 come through the shop. After giving it a chem clean, removing numerous dents and aligning the slide, I lubed the slide and took it for a test drive. The slide worked extremely well. I did some other things for a while, came back to the horn and played it some more……that’s when the slide stated to bind. Thinking it was just grit in the slide, I swabbed the slide and went through the process again. Same results……the slide was fantastic and then would start to drag after about 30-40 minutes of playing.

I started my slide alignment diagnostic process again and discovered that there was a slight bend (probably only 3 or 4 thousandths of an inch) at the stocking of one of the inner slides. After making that straight, the slide was incredible and could go for hours without any deterioration in the action.

I'm enlightened! So, any theory on why the binding get worse after some use? Lube getting wiped off, or breaking down, or getting overheated in the area of the bend?

The techs who taught me believed that a slide should work perfectly with no lubrication. Indeed, the best slides I have ever played worked perfectly while completely dry. My theory is that “good slides” will work well with any type of lube because the lube will cover up any imperfections. However, the masking of the problems is only temporary. Those alignment issues will eventually come back to haunt you.

Truly “fantastic slides” will work well wet or dry and they will stay that way for a LONG time between swabbing and reapplying lubrication. I have a few slides that I can put Trombotine on and I never need to do anything with them for months. Not even use my water atomizer. However, I don’t want to go that long without swabbing because I don’t want mineral deposits to start accumulating in the slide.