Bass trumpet: lemon, mouthpiece problem, or me?

[AtomicClock]

I have a Josef Lidl LTR 591 that I bought used in '10. (Right before my 10-year hiatus. Ha!) I've never been able to get it in tune. That's despite Hornguys describing the model as

Bb rotary valve bass trumpet, lacquer with nickel trim, includes custom Glenn Cronkhite leather gig bag and questionable 12E mouthpiece. Nice traditional small bore bass trumpet sound, good pitch, very fun to play.

The instrument, with everything pushed in, is basically in B natural (though still slightly flat). With the main tuning slide out all the way, it is halfway down to Bb. So *maybe* useful if I retrain my brain. The other problem is 2nd partial, which is 50 cents lower than the rest of the horn.

The mouthpiece that I'm using is clearly wrong, though I've tried several in my collection, and nothing really helps much. I've been using a DE LT 102/C/C2, which sticks out 5/8 inch too far. All tenor shanks stick out too far. I tried my very small alto experiments, Yamaha 46B and 45A, without much difference. I also have a Stork T2 that was shaved down to a trumpet shank. I built the shaft back up with some plumber's teflon tape to get a good depth in the Lidl, but it still wasn't happy.

I'm tempted to ask Doug Elliott for a shank/cup that will fit better. But I'm not convinced it'll really help the intonation.

The other thing I'd like to try is pop out the valve cores so I can run a snake through the whole thing. It doesn't feel stuffy at all, but maybe something is stuck in there. It really is quite fun to play. I just wish I could do it with other people!

https://web.archive.org/web/20100106100 ... strompete/
https://web.archive.org/web/20081102071 ... _Trumpets_

[AtomicClock]

To put it in context, I'm an amateur, with amateur opportunities. I'll never play the Ring. But I play in brass quintets from time to time. This may be a fun addition.

[mbarbier]

I used to have one of those. It was a total lemon pitch wise. Lovely sound, but just literally every note was out of tune in a different way. Friend has one from Horn Guys. Only slightly better. Mine had the same shank issue yours does, theirs didn't. Found a really small mouthpiece helps (20C), but only a bit. Turned down the shank to sit properly, which helped but not a ton. Enjoyable to play, but never could really use it out the house. Upgraded last year to a better one.

Their Piston ones seem a lot better- peolple seem to like those one.

[Finetales]

Interesting. I used to own that kind of Lidl rotary Bb, but an older one before it had a model number. It certainly had its share of intonation issues and stuffiness, but nothing like a partial 50 cents out of whack or the whole horn being a half step too sharp. It sounds like yours is in high pitch, but I have no idea why Lidl would make one in high pitch. Mine tuned to 440 like any other horn, and was fine with a range of bass trumpet-appropriate mouthpieces. It required alternate fingerings like most bass trumpets, but it was manageable enough.

I tried one of the piston models while I owned my rotary, and to me they played and sounded pretty much the same. The piston one was better because of the ergonomics, but in terms of actual playing characteristics it wasn't a big difference.

[AtomicClock]

but nothing like a partial 50 cents out of whack or the whole horn being a half step too sharp. It sounds like yours is in high pitch, but I have no idea why Lidl would make one in high pitch.

I guess part of the story I left off (the "me" part) is that it doesn't always behave the way I described. Sometimes, It sits in Bb at the end of the tuning slide (3rd partial on up). I'll play middle Bb long tones into a tuner and get consistent results; then try the same pitch several minutes later, and the tuner reports something very different. I think I struggle to really find the center of the slot. Or the slot has multiple centers. I dunno. I chalk it up to weak air, weak embouchure, a bad ear, or inexperience at this bore size.

[AtomicClock]

sticks out 5/8 inch too far. All tenor shanks stick out too far.

There's a wobble, too. It seems to be gripping the base of the shank, but the part that protrudes can rock back and forth. This is true for tenor trombone shanks and also trumpet shanks (which go in too far, but still wobble a bit). I don't think it's using our Morse taper.

[elmsandr]

Find a trumpet player that likes their horns… you know the one…. Try every cornet and flugel mouthpiece they have until you figure out what the shank is. That will be the beginning of the journey.

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

Mine also had a bit of a weird receiver. But it played fine with normal small shank mouthpieces. The tuning slide was out very far to get to Bb.

[Finetales]

I do think it's an alto trumpet shank, in between trumpet and trombone. My Bach 9AT alto trumpet mouthpiece fit perfectly in mine, while my small shank trombone mouthpieces stuck out pretty far and trumpet mouthpieces were too small to fit tightly. Most trumpet players won't own an alto trumpet mouthpiece (or an alto trumpet).

[AtomicClock]

I do think it's an alto trumpet shank, in between trumpet and trombone.

Receiver opening is 0.45 inches. Compare to trumpet (0.43) and trombone (0.48).
reference: https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/shanks/index.asp