Using different horns for artistic reasons

[johntarr]

While following this thread

viewtopic.php?t=26081

on medium bore horns, I noticed that a few members wrote that they used different horns on the same program. I’ve been toying with the idea of using a single valve bass and an alto for a solo program. It would be possible, even easier (for me) to do this on a single large bore horn but I like the sound of the bass in the lower pieces (not real bass register) and think the color change between the alto and bass could offer more variety for the listener. The possible drawback for me is that (at least right now) I find I get tired more quickly switching back and forth between the two horns.

Have any of you done this, and if so, how did you prepare for the switching back and forth?

Many thanks for any ideas and thoughts,

John

[ROCHUT]

For me the best way to get used to this is: once warmed up and ready to practice your instrument(s): set a timer and switch between horns every 10 minutes. No faffing around or buzzing or playing "warm-ups" of any kind when switching horns. Do this for an hour per day for a week and then assess how comfortable you are switching gears immediately.

[MStarke]

Good idea to isolate this the other threat.

I have relatively early on started doubling as I started on (German) baritone, added tenor trombone at around 12 and then got my first bass at around 17. There was a time when I struggled a lot with it and with my overall trombone playing, but in the last maybe 7-8 years I got quite good at it (on a semi-pro level).

I personally think that it's often the much better choice to use the most appropriate horn for a piece than to play all on the same. All within reason. I would not change between my Elkhart 88h and my modern Greenhoe Conn within one concert
In my case it has most times been quite obvious. E.g. I played first/alto in Haydn's creation, some brass ensemble music on tenor and a dedicated euphonium piece in one concert. However I have e.g. also played trombone ensemble concerts where it would not have been totally necessary to switch between large and small tenor, but it just sounded better.

In case of a solo program I think this could also make it much more interesting for the audience and you could do a little bit educational aspects around it!

Some key aspects that make it easier for me:
- Be sure you have a solid general technique, so that you don't always have to think about it too much. As soon as I had better understood how (my) embouchure works and had it integrated in my playing for a while, I could relatively easily apply it to more than one instrument
- Practice all of them frequently. I try to get at least 2, better 3 or 4 different mouthpieces (and instruments) on my face everyday. I must admit, I tend to ignore euphonium and alto... I don't do it frequently, but I have been recommended by two very very well-known guys who have to play multiple horns on their gigs, to even just play an instrument for 5 minutes just to get used to the switch.
- Touch all (relevant) aspects of playing on all horns. E.g. don't just practice low and loud on bass
- Long tones almost every day. At least for me they just give a good baselayer of stability and endurance/reliability that transports to all instruments
- Have a good sound concept! This is still the most tricky part for me. Strangely - being a professionally trained classical trombonist - I always struggle to have a nice large tenor sound in my head. For alto, small tenor, euphonium and bass that is not an issue. But for large tenor it's difficult for me.
- And of course equipment. There are obviously different strategies. What works for me: Mouthpieces and horns that "follow the same general logic". Mouthpieces with kind of similar rim feels (not sizes in my case!), my everyday horns are all Conn or "Conn-style" (apart from the euphonium).

Hope this helps!

[harrisonreed]

What you describe is basically my whole "schtick". I have mouthpieces with the exact same rim for bass tenor and alto, so switching is very easy. But you have to also approach each horn with the correct air and tongue setting. Alto will tire you out if you're trying to play it with your tongue down low.

I haven't found the need to extensively practice switching, or even practice each horn extensively each day -- you just need to know how to approach each horn with the correct mechanics. If I'm in shape on any one horn, I'm in shape on all of them.

[OneTon]

I brute forced changing from bass trombone to 0.481-0.490 tenor for 6 months or a year in back to back rehearsals. Now i am in Harrison’s court with it. The choice of horns for a solo performance would depend on where i am as an artist on each horn and the repertoire. The alto is enjoying a comeback. For a while the 88H was the only horn we required. The bass was mostly left to a designated bass player. We might have doubled on it depending on circumstances. Now everyone has an arsenal of professional level horns and steal jobs from roadies humping them into the gig.

I felt like i spent a few years getting “proficient” on 0.481-0.490 horns. Now it is teaching me that it can do new (to me) things that it can do on regular basis. The Duo-Gravis still surprises me once in a while, too. The only right decision is the one you make for yourself. It sounds to me like you’re saying that you’re not quite there on switching horses midstream yet. If the date is set and looming, i might be tempted to produce the beat artistic experience for the listener that I could on one large bore horn. Committing to greater flexibility for the next recital might be a worthy goal. On the other hand, some folks thrive on throwing their heart over the fence and letting the horse leap after it. Whatever decisions we make, we learn from them and keep learning. Good luck.

[hyperbolica]

I've got a friend who uses the same horn for everything. I personally don't like that approach. He tends to get the same sound regardless of the style.

I try to use the smallest horn that gets the right sound. Splitting hairs too much starts to seem a little pretentious or obnoxious to those around you. So if there's a distinction between large and small bass, I just bring the big bass. But if it's a distinction between bass and tenor, I'll bring two horns. I probably wouldn't bring two tenors to a job either. Rehearsals are a different issue, but that's because we rehearse quartet at my house, and all my options are right there.

I see a large tenor as the ultimate compromise horn, because you can play anything on it except in tune low C and B. But to me, nothing actually sounds good on large bore tenor. Real tenor stuff is too tubby and bass stuff is too buzz-saw-ish. Large tenor to me means the parts are mostly on the staff, not under and not over.

Parts over the staff will depend on if I need an F attachment (79h) or not, and how direct I need the sound to be, if I'm lead or solo (48h/3508r) or if I have to blend (8h w/525).

The secret to switching horns is the rim, as others have suggested. I used to have a lot of trouble switching to smaller mouthpieces, even from the 5g to 6.5al. With DE stuff, I keep the same rim on all tenors (3g size), and have something slightly larger for bass (Schilke 59 size). I can switch in the middle of a tune if I need to.

[Finetales]

I think my record for most horns used on a single gig is 8 - Bb trumpet, C trumpet, flugelhorn, mellophonium, French horn, alto trombone, tenor trombone, bass trombone. I can beat that number if you include non-brass instruments.

Much more recently, I've done a couple of things with 4 or 5 horns. A session with mellophone/mellophonium/small tenor/bass, and a live gig with trumpet/mellophone/flugabone/small tenor with F/bass.

I don't share rim sizes between horns, each has their own. Though small tenor/flugabone/baritone horn are obviously similar, as are large tenor/euphonium.

Have any of you done this, and if so, how did you prepare for the switching back and forth?

As others have mentioned, the only way to get used to switching back and forth between instruments (even those of drastically different rim sizes) is to practice doing exactly that, QUICKLY. Start at reasonable intervals to switch - practice one horn, take a break, practice another. Then start doing it with less time in between switches. The goal is to get to the point where you can switch horns as fast as you can physically put one down and have the other on your face. Then switching from piece to piece will be easy.

[OneTon]

I use a Bach 1 1/2G for bass and Bach (MV) 11C on everything else. There isn’t much call for alto around here. I might like alto better with a more appropriate mouthpiece. Fintales is right about the smallest horn that works for the piece being played, ideally. Logistics is a factor. Sometimes i am lazy and use a 79H, or a LT42AG. But never for jazz. I am not in Steve Turre’s realm of existence.

[Burgerbob]

I can't speak much to using bunches of different horns on the same gig, though I have done a couple.

But I double a lot, and I have multiples of the same kind of instrument that I like to use for different purposes.

The better embouchure setup you have, and less you rely on a particular instrument or mouthpiece to make that work for you, the easier doubling gets. The tradeoff is that you will not have that ultra-comfortable feeling that I assume people that play 1 instrument all the time have... I've never had it myself!

[Bach5G]

I worry about ruining my chops switching between tenor, bass and alto trombones, even with several DE mpcs involved. In particular, I experience double buzzes, as well as occasionally my chops not speaking in mid-range. But playing that horn in this setting is part of the fun. Schlepping multiple horns is not.

[harrisonreed]

It shouldn't wreck your chops. Playing with bad mechanics might.

[Burgerbob]

It shouldn't wreck your chops. Playing with bad mechanics might.

[Bach5G]

It shouldn't wreck your chops. Playing with bad mechanics might.

Yeah, I worry about this all the time. I try to do what DE told me to do. Maybe time for a refresh.

[harrisonreed]

To clarify, I wasnt trying to imply you had bad mechanics, either. Just that the fear might be irrational. If anything, I've found that improving on alto, for example, makes certain things on tenor or bass easier. Improving on bass makes other things easier on alto and tenor.

If I was teaching college kids I'd tell them they couldn't afford to not get time on small bore or bass, in addition to their main large bore.

[Burgerbob]

Totally agreed. I find a lot of tenor players (and bass players, to an extent) that have really relied on their single setup for their development, at the cost of everything else.

[Finetales]

If anything, I've found that improving on alto, for example, makes certain things on tenor or bass easier. Improving on bass makes other things easier on alto and tenor.

Everything helps everything in some way, it's one of the beautiful things about brass doubling. Tuba to trumpet, practicing any of them (in the right way) makes all the others better. There is a reason some pro trumpet players have trombone or tuba mouthpieces to warm up and warm down on.

[BrassSection]

Since I’m the only brass in our church band, one horn isn’t a “One size fits all” scenario. I base the horn on the style of the song, while trumpet and trombone do get the most play time, the euph comes out on a regular basis and the French horn occasionally gets pulled out. Generally switch is between songs, but occasionally a song will start slow and mellow and then really build and I’ll switch from euph to trumpet between a verse and chorus or bridge. All 3 usual horns are right in front of me, trumpet and trombone on stands and euph on the bell. I’ve done multiple horns so long no sweat going from low notes on euph to upper octave on the trumpet.

On another thing I’ve found is one evening after probably more than an hour on trombone, chops were starting to feel it. Trumpet time came and trumpet was easy to play and the trombone muscles recovered quickly.

Horns shown on the ready

B35FD26F-95FB-4B47-A369-313494553683.jpeg

[hyperbolica]

Everything helps everything in some way, it's one of the beautiful things about brass doubling. Tuba to trumpet, practicing any of them (in the right way) makes all the others better. There is a reason some pro trumpet players have trombone or tuba mouthpieces to warm up and warm down on.

I don't believe this is universal. There are obviously a lot of people for whom it is true, but I know tuba wrecked my tenor while making my bass better. It could be I just didn't have the patience, or didn't want to accept the compromises that come with that kind of doubling. I would say 80% of the brass players I know don't double "out of the octave".

[Finetales]

I don't believe this is universal. There are obviously a lot of people for whom it is true, but I know tuba wrecked my tenor while making my bass better.

Well of course, nothing in brass playing is universal except "air is important." But among those who do play different-sized brass instruments, it seems to be true more often than not.

I would say 80% of the brass players I know don't double "out of the octave".

It's probably a lot higher than 80% overall. Most brass players in the world play just their instrument, or standard doubles (trumpet and flugelhorn, small and large tenor trombones). Even doubling tenor and bass trombone is pretty uncommon outside of the studio hubs where it's expected for freelancers.

But I believe that a lot more brass players are capable of doubling "out of the octave" than you might think.

[johntarr]

This thread has generated some really interesting responses, thank you to all.

I will respond directly to some of the post below.

John

[johntarr]

What you describe is basically my whole "schtick". I have mouthpieces with the exact same rim for bass tenor and alto, so switching is very easy. But you have to also approach each horn with the correct air and tongue setting. Alto will tire you out if you're trying to play it with your tongue down low.

I haven't found the need to extensively practice switching, or even practice each horn extensively each day -- you just need to know how to approach each horn with the correct mechanics. If I'm in shape on any one horn, I'm in shape on all of them.

I too have DE mouthpieces with the same rim size for my horns, with the exception of the bass. For that I have a larger rim.

What you said about tongue position and the alto is something I’ve been wondering about regarding my high range. My upper teeth are very narrow (I should’ve had braces as a kid) so I can’t get my tongue close to the roof of my mouth. I have the same basic high range on all instruments, bass trombone to trumpet, about a high D. I can go higher on tenor and alto, but I have to be really focused and not too tired. In this way, I may not be able to play the alto with my tongue in the right position and that may also explain why I enjoy playing in the mid to low range.

[johntarr]

I brute forced changing from bass trombone to 0.481-0.490 tenor for 6 months or a year in back to back rehearsals. Now i am in Harrison’s court with it. The choice of horns for a solo performance would depend on where i am as an artist on each horn and the repertoire. The alto is enjoying a comeback. For a while the 88H was the only horn we required. The bass was mostly left to a designated bass player. We might have doubled on it depending on circumstances. Now everyone has an arsenal of professional level horns and steal jobs from roadies humping them into the gig.

I felt like i spent a few years getting “proficient” on 0.481-0.490 horns. Now it is teaching me that it can do new (to me) things that it can do on regular basis. The Duo-Gravis still surprises me once in a while, too. The only right decision is the one you make for yourself. It sounds to me like you’re saying that you’re not quite there on switching horses midstream yet. If the date is set and looming, i might be tempted to produce the beat artistic experience for the listener that I could on one large bore horn. Committing to greater flexibility for the next recital might be a worthy goal. On the other hand, some folks thrive on throwing their heart over the fence and letting the horse leap after it. Whatever decisions we make, we learn from them and keep learning. Good luck.

For better and for worse, I don’t have any deadlines as of yet. My “gig” is teaching and a small part of my job is playing in a community orchestra. I have a project with a pianist and two dancers that I have used my large bore, but am considering using the bass and alto for the next concert, which is not yet planned. I played an unaccompanied recital many years ago and want to develop a new program. Unaccompanied trombone can be monotonous (pun intended) so I’m exploring ways to vary the sounds and colors.

Thanks for your encouragement,

John

[johntarr]

I've got a friend who uses the same horn for everything. I personally don't like that approach. He tends to get the same sound regardless of the style.

I try to use the smallest horn that gets the right sound. Splitting hairs too much starts to seem a little pretentious or obnoxious to those around you. So if there's a distinction between large and small bass, I just bring the big bass. But if it's a distinction between bass and tenor, I'll bring two horns. I probably wouldn't bring two tenors to a job either. Rehearsals are a different issue, but that's because we rehearse quartet at my house, and all my options are right there.

I see a large tenor as the ultimate compromise horn, because you can play anything on it except in tune low C and B. But to me, nothing actually sounds good on large bore tenor. Real tenor stuff is too tubby and bass stuff is too buzz-saw-ish. Large tenor to me means the parts are mostly on the staff, not under and not over.

Parts over the staff will depend on if I need an F attachment (79h) or not, and how direct I need the sound to be, if I'm lead or solo (48h/3508r) or if I have to blend (8h w/525).

The secret to switching horns is the rim, as others have suggested. I used to have a lot of trouble switching to smaller mouthpieces, even from the 5g to 6.5al. With DE stuff, I keep the same rim on all tenors (3g size), and have something slightly larger for bass (Schilke 59 size). I can switch in the middle of a tune if I need to.

Recently I attended the Blekinge International Brass Academy (in Sweden), which is 6 days of lectures, lessons, master classes and concerts. I was attending the pedagogical seminar. Ian Bousfield and James Markey were the trombone teachers so as you might guess, there was no shortage of fine young (university aged) tenor and bass trombone players. It seemed like every tenor player had a Shires or some sort of boutique horn and there were many very good performances. Except that, they all sounded pretty much the same. There was one young man who played an old 88H and it was really refreshing to hear a different kind of sound that was warmer and not so huge. Of course these students are hoping to get orchestra jobs so they must sound that way. That one player with the Conn and a different sound concept was the only one I remember. There was a trombone quartet that played very well but I kept wondering how it would sound if first was on alto, second on a small or medium bore, third on large bore and bass on a bass. I guess many of us boneheads love uniformity.

When James Markey played his portion of the concert, he played a piece on tenor and one on bass. His part was the most meaningful and enjoyable of all the artists there, with the exception of Sergio Carolino, who is a fantastic tuba player. Mr. Markey also played his pieces from memory, which was an added bonus.

Thanks for your suggestions on horn sizes, I think more variety would be very refreshing.

All the best,

John

[johntarr]

I think my record for most horns used on a single gig is 8 - Bb trumpet, C trumpet, flugelhorn, mellophonium, French horn, alto trombone, tenor trombone, bass trombone. I can beat that number if you include non-brass instruments.

Much more recently, I've done a couple of things with 4 or 5 horns. A session with mellophone/mellophonium/small tenor/bass, and a live gig with trumpet/mellophone/flugabone/small tenor with F/bass.

I don't share rim sizes between horns, each has their own. Though small tenor/flugabone/baritone horn are obviously similar, as are large tenor/euphonium.

Have any of you done this, and if so, how did you prepare for the switching back and forth?

As others have mentioned, the only way to get used to switching back and forth between instruments (even those of drastically different rim sizes) is to practice doing exactly that, QUICKLY. Start at reasonable intervals to switch - practice one horn, take a break, practice another. Then start doing it with less time in between switches. The goal is to get to the point where you can switch horns as fast as you can physically put one down and have the other on your face. Then switching from piece to piece will be easy.

I enjoyed a video you put out a while ago. Your ability play on so many different brass instruments is impressive. I have been practicing in the way you suggest so hopefully I will be able to expand my horizons a bit.

Looking forward to another video,

John

[johntarr]

Totally agreed. I find a lot of tenor players (and bass players, to an extent) that have really relied on their single setup for their development, at the cost of everything else.

In what way? What do you mean by, “for their development, at the cost of everything else.”? What improves when you don’t rely on a single set up (in addition to being able to play more instruments)?

[SamBTbrn]

Hey John,

A good question that I think can be split up into two or three different categories, large ensemble playing, small ensemble playing and solo playing.

For solo playing there are a few musicians that do solo programs regularly switching between instruments in the concert. Some of the more famous ones are Brandt Attema, Charles Vernon, Wim becu amd Martin Schippers are people who do it in concert on various different instruments and it has a very nice effect showing off the many different trombones and how different they are.

In small ensemble's, more so in historical performance than in the modern repatoir but not exclusively, it is very common to switch different instruments during one performance. I have a concert coming up at a Bach festival where I will be playing Bass sackbut in D and F for some Bach and Gabrielle as well as then switching over to a Romantic German trombone to play Bruckner then to a classical period bass for some Mozart.

In larger ensembles, mostly it's doubling in pit orchestras for musicals where I have to switch, it is for artistic reasons but not one that was made by the musicians. Then it's tenor, Basstrombone and tuba. For the orchestra it's not uncommon for the 1st trombonist to change to a small trombone if balero pops up in a concert and then switch back for another piece etc.

To prepare for these different scenarios this is what I do. (as was taught to me by Brandt when I studied with him.)

I will do my regular practice routine but after every completed excersise I will switch to the other instrument and play the excersise again on the new Instrument. Keep switching back and forward, repeating each excersise. Maximaal 5 min on each trombone before switching back. So an example.

Let's say I have to play a concert where I am required to play modern bass trombone, contrabass trombone and a period french G Basstrombone in 3 different works (What an interesting concert that would be) I would start with the Remington long tones on my Modern Basstrombone from middle Bb to middle E. I will stop and then pick up my French G bass and play the Remington on the equivalent harmonic (middle G to C). Stop and then switch to the contra and play the Remington starting on the equivalent harmonic (middle F to B). I then do that for the rest of the Remington pattern switching between every new harmonic then take a break.

The next excersise would be lip slurs. 2 note lip slurs switching instruments every harmonic. Then 3 note slures, then 4 note slures etc. Then Break. That articulation excersise or scales or what ever is next in your routine.

Once I'm through all the technical excesises I would pick an etude and play the first phrase on one instrument. Then randomly pick one of the other instruments to play the next phrase. Can be in a different octave if needed. And do that for your etude or studies.

Switching requires a certain type of stamina that can only come from practicing the act of switching itself.

Best
Sam

[Burgerbob]

Totally agreed. I find a lot of tenor players (and bass players, to an extent) that have really relied on their single setup for their development, at the cost of everything else.

In what way? What do you mean by, “for their development, at the cost of everything else.”? What improves when you don’t rely on a single set up (in addition to being able to play more instruments)?

I see (and I was one, as well, at different times) players on one setup for a long time.

Imagine a college student that has played the same 88H with a 5G for 5 or 6 years, the most important 5 or 6 years of their playing so far. They use this horn for all playing, no matter the style or part. All of their habits are built around this instrument and combination. They can practice fundamentals, and they will be useful- but they are ultimately only working on their connection with that one instrument. If the 88H has a bit of resistance to the high register, they have no idea and build their playing around that. If their 88H is uneven and the 3rd partial is a really different blow, they have no idea because it's the baseline.

I see many of these kinds of students trying out instruments and saying "Oh wow, this Thayer is stuffy!" because their blow is SO dialed in to one instrument they use that the unfamiliarity comes across as "stuffy."

This isn't all bad, I think there are some lucky few players that can get away with literally playing the same combo for all time and I'm honestly jealous of them- that would certainly make my life easier!

But for the rest of us that need to double (even on two tenor trombones), we NEED to be more adaptable, have more room for change in our embouchure and approach- which ultimately leads to better all-around chops and playing ability.

[harrisonreed]

I too have DE mouthpieces with the same rim size for my horns, with the exception of the bass. For that I have a larger rim.

What you said about tongue position and the alto is something I’ve been wondering about regarding my high range. My upper teeth are very narrow (I should’ve had braces as a kid) so I can’t get my tongue close to the roof of my mouth. I have the same basic high range on all instruments, bass trombone to trumpet, about a high D. I can go higher on tenor and alto, but I have to be really focused and not too tired. In this way, I may not be able to play the alto with my tongue in the right position and that may also explain why I enjoy playing in the mid to low range.

I don't see what you mean. The distance from one side of upper teeth to the other is too narrow?

When I talk about a high tongue position, I mean one where the back and middle of your tongue is essentially flush against the back and middle of your palette, away behind your teeth. There will be a small channel that the air travels through, along the middle of your tongue. So many trombonists play with the tongue as low and open as they can get, but you want the opposite for most tenor and especially alto playing.

From this basic position, you can bring the tongue even higher, towards the upper front teeth, or "lower" by drawing it back. But I've noticed that the back of my tongue is always high up, except on the lowest pedal notes. This really helps control the air.

[harrisonreed]

Take this with a huge grain of salt, because I am not an MRI machine, but this is what I perceive my tongue position is doing.

[Bach5G]

The fMRI scans are on YouTube.

[johntarr]

Hey John,

A good question that I think can be split up into two or three different categories, large ensemble playing, small ensemble playing and solo playing.

I will do my regular practice routine but after every completed excersise I will switch to the other instrument and play the excersise again on the new Instrument. Keep switching back and forward, repeating each excersise. Maximaal 5 min on each trombone before switching back. So an example.

Let's say I have to play a concert where I am required to play modern bass trombone, contrabass trombone and a period french G Basstrombone in 3 different works (What an interesting concert that would be) I would start with the Remington long tones on my Modern Basstrombone from middle Bb to middle E. I will stop and then pick up my French G bass and play the Remington on the equivalent harmonic (middle G to C). Stop and then switch to the contra and play the Remington starting on the equivalent harmonic (middle F to B). I then do that for the rest of the Remington pattern switching between every new harmonic then take a break.

The next excersise would be lip slurs. 2 note lip slurs switching instruments every harmonic. Then 3 note slures, then 4 note slures etc. Then Break. That articulation excersise or scales or what ever is next in your routine.

Once I'm through all the technical excesises I would pick an etude and play the first phrase on one instrument. Then randomly pick one of the other instruments to play the next phrase. Can be in a different octave if needed. And do that for your etude or studies.

Switching requires a certain type of stamina that can only come from practicing the act of switching itself.

Best
Sam

Thanks for the detailed information! From your and others’ posts I’m inspired to expand my practicing further than I currently have. I will admit that most of my studying years (in the last century) were focused on just one instrument. I am one of those who Aiden mentioned.

John

[johntarr]

This isn't all bad, I think there are some lucky few players that can get away with literally playing the same combo for all time and I'm honestly jealous of them- that would certainly make my life easier!

But for the rest of us that need to double (even on two tenor trombones), we NEED to be more adaptable, have more room for change in our embouchure and approach- which ultimately leads to better all-around chops and playing ability.

I am one of those who stayed on one instrument for too long. One of my interests is studying skill acquisition in other fields. Interestingly enough, there is growing research that variety is more beneficial for robust and sustainable learning than specialization. That’s a gross over simplification but it points to your observations.

I too would like to have just one instrument because I want less stuff in my life. However, I am discovering the joys of playing different colors and sounds on different instruments.

Best,

John

[johntarr]

The fMRI scans are on YouTube.

I’ve seen those and that is one of the reasons I got thinking about the shape of my upper jaw.

[johntarr]

Take this with a huge grain of salt, because I am not an MRI machine, but this is what I perceive my tongue position is doing.

I don't see what you mean. The distance from one side of upper teeth to the other is too narrow?

When I talk about a high tongue position, I mean one where the back and middle of your tongue is essentially flush against the back and middle of your palette, away behind your teeth. There will be a small channel that the air travels through, along the middle of your tongue. So many trombonists play with the tongue as low and open as they can get, but you want the opposite for most tenor and especially alto playing.

From this basic position, you can bring the tongue even higher, towards the upper front teeth, or "lower" by drawing it back. But I've noticed that the back of my tongue is always high up, except on the lowest pedal notes. This really helps control the air.

Using your hand drawn fMRI images for reference, I can’t get my tongue into the high Bb position. The only part of my tongue that can touch my palette is tip and a bit more. I can’t get the back of my tongue close to my palette unless I draw the tongue way back and press with considerable force.

[Doug Elliott]

Don't you have to get it there to swallow?

[johntarr]

Don't you have to get it there to swallow?

I hadn’t tried that. Yes, when I swallow, my tongue relaxes and kind of folds up to the roof of my mouth. At that point, it seems that the sides of my tongue are still wider than my teeth so that if I were to close my mouth fully, I would bite my tongue. My upper jaw is narrower than my lower jaw.

Using your question, I will experiment with thinking of the swallowing to relax my tongue and see if that can make some changes.

Thanks Doug!

[Doug Elliott]

I don't think "relax" is the right word... the tongue is a complex set of muscles that acts powerfully when swallowing. The various things the tongue needs to do in playing are totally related to other things it does in speaking and eating. You just need to relate them instead of thinking there's something you can't do.

[hyperbolica]

I am one of those who stayed on one instrument for too long....

Even though I advocate playing a range of instruments, I don't believe learning all on a single axe is a bad thing. I may be misreading what BB said, but I don't think he was condemning it either. It gives you in-depth knowledge of how a certain horn plays, which is definitely a good thing. In fact, I think it's important to be intimately familiar with how the (or A(n)) instrument plays, and what it's supposed to do as this will help you start branching out. I think BB started out playing multiple instruments, which has advantages of its own.

I played an 88h exclusively from 1975-2014? I think. It's a very comfortable reference point for me to go back to, but my tastes have expanded somewhat, and although I still love that 88h, I also am strongly attracted to other things.

[Doug Elliott]

I totally agree with all of that.
***"in-depth knowledge of how a certain horn plays"***
You won't get that if you're constantly switching.
After that, it's good to spend time on others, or maybe to a different primary horn. Eventually you get quicker at gaining "in-depth knowledge" of how other horns play.

Learning how to play correctly for your own body is a huge part of that.

[tbdana]

Once again I find myself out of step with the hive mind here.

I would love to have a large stable of trombones, but I don't have the money for that. Besides, I tend to develop intimate relationships with just a couple horns -- I'm talking tenor trombones, one large bore and one small bore -- and I rely on those two axes no matter what music I'll be playing.

The differences come in how I play and how I approach the music. I don't rely on the horn for that. If the horn gives me a good sound and I can play the horn well, I figure the rest is up to me.

[johntarr]

Take this with a huge grain of salt, because I am not an MRI machine, but this is what I perceive my tongue position is doing.

This is a highly accurate drawing of my upper jaw and tongue. The molars curve inward on both sides. I remember my dentist telling me that I should have this corrected but it wasn’t serious. My parents felt that it would been a bit too much so we left. I don’t really know if this affects my high range but after seeing those fMRI images of the horn players, and talking to my trumpet colleague, it seemed to me that not being able to get the back of my tongue closer to the roof of my mouth may be making the higher notes a little harder than they should be. Just to be sure, I’m not saying that this is true but I am wondering about it.