TromboneChat

Looking at finally getting into the 21st Century (well, actually, my wife is, and I'm being dragged kicking and screaming...)

What are the suggestions for electronic music readers? iPad? What model?

Thanks in advance.

iPad either Pro or Air. Both now come in 12.9/13 inch screens. The Air with 13 inch screen is new and considerably cheaper. You don’t need much memory I just have 128GB. ForScore is great software and I recommend paying up and using it. Why pay $800+ for an iPad and cheap out on the software to make it fully functional. That’s my 2 cents!

I second the above. I recently bought a 12.9 inch iPad Pro, along with an Otter brand case.
I buy my Apple products from the refurbished shop online. I've never had any issues with any of the devices purchased. https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/ ... d-pro-12-9

ForScore is the best reader I'm aware of. PDF's can be loaded via AirDrop.
If you don't already use music apps on your phone, I'd suggest TonalEnergy as a tuner.
If you want to use it on gigs, you will likely want a Bluetooth foot pedal for page turns.

As far as longevity goes - I still have my first iPad from 2012. The software is obsolete and can't be updated, so most of today's apps won't load onto it, but it works! My 2013 iPhone still works and holds a charge too! I've used it as an alarm for eight years now.

I have a Samsung. Standard size, does the job.
Use mobile sheets. Can download pdf & direct input! Forescore isn't available, but I agree to purchase an app that suits your purposes.
Been managing without a pedal, by using 1/2 page turns. Again, it does the job.
Absolute game changer! Don't need to worry what folder to bring, or trying to balance a 170 odd chart folder on a stand. All on the tablet! Also no need for stand light!
Should have done it years ago

To try out whether I would like going electronic, I bought a refurbished Chromebook on eBay for $50. I wish the screen were bigger, but it works. It makes finding music much easier as Mobile Sheets lets me organize alphabetically and according to the group I'm playing with. The worst part is scanning the originals and copying over to the Chromebook. Time consuming. I will probably move to an iPad in the future.

Agreeing with the first three posts here, based on my experience over the last few years. In Forscore the ability to synch your charts with recordings is helpful as you can also adjust the tempo when practicing, or just playing along for fun.

ForScore is far and away the best software for this, and necessitates an iPad as previously said. The other options simply aren’t worth your consideration for serious use. I have played with some folks on smaller iPads, but the 13” size is what you want.

Accessories:

I find massive value in a stylus. You wouldn’t leave home without a pencil, would you? I use the Apple Pencil, but other options work fine here.

I received pedals as a gift and started using them at every rehearsal and gig about six months ago. I find less value in them, because ForScore’s copy/paste and Rearrange tools can compensate for bad page turns and DS/DC patterns in most cases. You may never need them if you learn the software to an adequate degree.

I’ve now tried four different tablet-specific music stands. I only use one when a full width desk might be awkward (pits and some churches, for ex.). They’re generally not worth it, in my view.

bitbckt wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:02 am ForScore is far and away the best software for this, and necessitates an iPad as previously said. The other options simply aren’t worth your consideration for serious use. I have played with some folks on smaller iPads, but the 13” size is what you want.

People who use ForScore love it. But if you don't love the iPad interface, the competitor (MobileSheets) is really just as good and works on Android and Microsoft devices.

I concur with 13 inch size, although I know people who do well on 10 and I've used it in a pinch.

I also tried the Chromebook route. It works, but it is thicker and heavier than a tablet and the keys get in the way. And they get pricey if you go for screen resolution and 3:2 display.

There is an elephant in this room, and I'm wondering when it will pass some gas. To use a tablet requires scanning or some other method of converting sheet music to PDF. That would seem to be a copyright violation - you are copying and reproducing. I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted, but then I play in community bands in nursing homes. Some of you are more visible/vulnerable. (I have one of the popular method books scanned with the permission of the author - and the promise not to share it. You would all know the one I mean. )

I’ll add my favored page turner - the Flic button, mounted on this from the Etsy shop;

https://www.etsy.com/shop/TEAIndustries ... 2625#items

If your horn isn’t listed, he will work with you on a custom mounting. (Flic button and mounting ordered separately from two different companies.)

Scanning for personal use won't normally get you in trouble. Scanning and sharing or selling is a copyright violation if the parts are under copyright.

I use a 13 inch iPad, ForScore, and a bluetooth foot pedal page turner, and it works great. I love having ALL of my music in a small device. Scanning pages with my iPhone is quick and easy. I have a sleeve for carrying my iPad around but I don't like putting a case on it - it makes it too big and bulky.

10 inch iPads are too small for my eyes. I use an old first generation iPad Pro (purchased cheap used on craigslist for $200 a couple of years ago) and it works fine. 128GB is plenty.

A page turner is essential for big band charts -- there isn't always a rest section that allows time to take your hand off the slide and touch the iPad to turn the page. I haven't tried the Flic but foot pedals allow to go forward AND back.

My understanding is that scanning copyrighted material that you own for personal use is considered "fair use".

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:00 am My understanding is that scanning copyrighted material that you own for personal use is considered "fair use".

But is a public (maybe for-profit) concert considered "personal use"? I doubt it. The problem with relying on "fair use" is that it's complex, and you have to go to court to really find out if it applies.

As I said before, nobody is going to put cuffs on you for playing from a scanned copy of your music. Copyright is intended to preserve the ability of the copyright owner to make a profit from his work. If you are selling the scan or giving it to friends, you are reducing his profit potential. If you bought the music and scanned it for your own use, all is good.

I use a 3rd gen 12.9 ipad pro. No stylus or pedals... just never really need them. I bought mine refurbished.

I find the ipad to be a requirement because it makes sharing music with Airdrop so easy.

I do get a fair amount of use out of my ipad otherwise. It's not a laptop replacement, but it does a lot of other things for me that are handy.

iPads seem to be the "go to" for people who want to use it for music. I have a 6th Gen "regular" iPad, with a 9.7 inch screen, but I haven't really tried to use it for reading music. It probably would be fine, but a bit small. I think I'd definitely want an 11 inch screen for reading music.

Having a "power brick" is also a very useful thing, as it really expands battery capacity.

Now, I got my iPad from "Mac of All Trades", 4 years ago, and I saved a bunch and it still works perfectly. The secondary market is one way to really save some money.

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:00 am
My understanding is that scanning copyrighted material that you own for personal use is considered "fair use".

Definitely not true. Fair use is much more limited than people have grown accustomed to think.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:27 am

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:00 am
My understanding is that scanning copyrighted material that you own for personal use is considered "fair use".

Definitely not true. Fair use is much more limited than people have grown accustomed to think.

Timothy,

Please elaborate. Can you cite the relevant law, or court cases? What are the legal and customary limitations of "fair use?"

If "fair use" does not allow me to copy something I have purchased (either to have a backup paper copy or to put on a tablet so I can read it there) for my own private purposes, then I am a repeat-offender criminal (I don't feel like a crook) - and it's time to advocate for revising the laws that (allegedly) permit "fair" use!

As an aside, what laws apply to transcriptions of solos "lifted" from recorded (and thus copyrighted) music? Illegal?

What are the real-world consequences of these copyright "violations?" Should I be looking over my shoulder for the enforcers?

I'm pretty sure a lot of this is in a legal gray area, and often may be left to the discretion of the copyright holder. There is a ton of information online about this, much of it authored by IP lawyers, and a lot of their advice ends with "contact the IP holder". There may be no "definitive" answer, which is always a problem, considering how many people are switching to electronic music readers, which are in many ways much easier to deal with than physical music.

I have played in several community orchestras, and all the music we get is borrowed or rented, either from rental houses, libraries, or the owners. This is true for both music past copyright, and those which are still copyrighted. Some of these require that markings be removed prior to return, and it is often far easier to just have the parts copied, and then those are distributed and later destroyed. This way people can mark up their parts and not have to worry about erasing them.

There is also the issue with stringed instruments of bowings, which often may not be written in the parts already, because they were required to have the markings removed. It's a lot easier to bow one part, distribute copies, and then later destroy them than to have to bow EVERY part.

In all these cases the original parts are legal, and the copying of the parts is in no way intended to circumvent copyright law, so it would really help if the DMCA and other regulations were updated and/or clarified. This is especially important as a lot of music is now distributed from the publisher digitally, and hard copies are impossible to find.

Recently picked up a used 12.9” iPad Pro and use ForScore. Highly recommend. No page turner yet or dedicated stand. I’m looking at the K&M like $35 range stand from Amazon and Flic.

Been fantastic for setting playlists for summer park concerts.

Cheers,
Andy

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 2:30 pm

I have played in several community orchestras, and all the music we get is borrowed or rented, either from rental houses, libraries, or the owners. This is true for both music past copyright, and those which are still copyrighted. Some of these require that markings be removed prior to return, and it is often far easier to just have the parts copied, and then those are distributed and later destroyed. This way people can mark up their parts and not have to worry about erasing them.

This is commonly done. Or, even if the band owns the music, they copy the originals so they don't get lost or damaged, and hand out only the copies.

Of course this is against the letter of the law. But does it hurt anyone? Yes, absolutely. Music does wear out, music does get lost, and you have to buy new, and the copyright holder gets a cut. You have six trombone players, and only three pieces of sheet music - do you copy or buy more music?

Can we copy music to enlarge it for someone visually impaired? Seems fair, right? But no, technically not. I doubt you would be prosecuted but again technically against the law.

I had some good sources last time we had this argument. I'll see if they are still extant.

I've just started to experiment with Zubersoft's MobileSheets on my Chromepad, and it looks like a winner for me. I think that once I play around with it enough, I'll need to get a Chromepad with a slightly larger screen even though the one I have now is "useable".

As an initial reaction, I'm surprised at how much I like the interface and the (copious -- perhaps overly copious, 200 page) documentation. I'm a long time software engineer/designer/developer, the only knock I have on it is that (as is often the case) the documentation is from a developer perspective that dumps a huge amount of "functionality" on you rather than providing a user-oriented/task-oriented view and approach.

However, I'll also note that there are a number of Youtube videos on how to use MobileSheets. Some of these (surprise) are mindless and useless, but others (such as those from Zubersoft) appear to be task-oriented ("How do I ...?)" than simply explorations of "functions" ("What is it possible to do?"). So in terms of documentation and real-world examples of use, both appear to be available.

I am using a Google Pixel tablet partnered with MusicSheets.

I agree with others about getting a larger screen. Mine is passable, but that little bit of extra space would be better.

PhilTrombone wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 11:53 am I agree with others about getting a larger screen. Mine is passable, but that little bit of extra space would be better.

So what's your recommendation for screen size? I've just been looking at this (for another Chromebook, which are pretty much dirt cheap for some very good products), and I'm thinking that a 14" screen might be best. I have the feeling that anything larger would be overkill -- unless you want to display two pages simultaneously. But I'm not convinced that the two-page display offers that much advantage. I have a 13" display now and while it's useable, a slightly larger one would, I think, be a real improvement.

Thoughts?

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:20 pm So what's your recommendation for screen size?

Fortunately, we haven't abandoned paper just yet. Find some representative piece of music, and reduce it on a photocopier to make representatives of all your candidate screen sizes. Tablet advocates like to eliminate the margins, so take that into account.

Personally, I find that the publishers' slightly oversized pages are easier to read than when they are printed on US letter. Which leads me to think that 15" is a reasonable minimum. But I'm not really in the game yet.

Plus, a lot depends on the age of your eyes.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:43 pm Find some representative piece of music, and reduce it on a photocopier to make representatives of all your candidate screen sizes. Tablet advocates like to eliminate the margins, so take that into account.

While that seems to make sense geometrically, I don't think it's particularly accurate perceptually since reading a lighted screen is quite different from reading a piece of comparably sized paper with a light shining on it. I'm surprised that I find my current screen so easy to read. Reducing the display to that size on paper renders it noticeably more of a challenge.

Plus, a lot depends on the age of your eyes.

My eyes are old, but parts of them are young and artificial. I got IOL implants several years ago (including rather significant astigmatism correction), and my vision hasn't been this good since I was about 12.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:40 am

However, I'll also note that there are a number of Youtube videos on how to use MobileSheets. Some of these (surprise) are mindless and useless, but others (such as those from Zubersoft) appear to be task-oriented ("How do I ...?)" than simply explorations of "functions" ("What is it possible to do?"). So in terms of documentation and real-world examples of use, both appear to be available.

You'll find a useful forum, and the developer himself answers questions very quickly. Also I've been using it a couple years or so, and probably got stuck the same place you would.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:20 pm

PhilTrombone wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 11:53 am I agree with others about getting a larger screen. Mine is passable, but that little bit of extra space would be better.

So what's your recommendation for screen size? I've just been looking at this (for another Chromebook, which are pretty much dirt cheap for some very good products), and I'm thinking that a 14" screen might be best. I have the feeling that anything larger would be overkill -- unless you want to display two pages simultaneously. But I'm not convinced that the two-page display offers that much advantage. I have a 13" display now and while it's useable, a slightly larger one would, I think, be a real improvement.

Thoughts?

Bigger isn't always better. You run into number of pixels. I find the 13 inch the sweet spot for reading music. But if you use a tablet for anything else, maybe facebook or email, or especially plane travel, the 10 inch is much handier. You can read an ebook in your recliner or on the beach, but that quickly becomes awkward with 13 or larger.

Thanks. I don't think I can live with a 10" screen. I don't find the 13" size to be too cumbersome, and so I don't think the 14" would be either. And I generally stay off the beach unless I have a rod in my hands. After years of lugging somewhat larger machines (from the 1990s onwards) around the world, I'm not deterred by any of these contemporary tablet systems in terms of size.

I do take your point about pixels, but there is a trade-off in size vs. clarity, and some additional technology to help us out there. It's something to think about. However, I'm typing this while looking at my 27" FHD 1080p monitor, and everything -- including sheet music somewhat magnified -- looks real good. So I'd expect to be able to get something looking as good on a Chromebook. But the screen technology can matter.

Be sure you have glasses that focus at the right distance. It will make a big difference. I use a 12.9 inch iPad with glasses that focus at the right place. I’m 67 and it works for me.

sacfxdx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:06 pm Be sure you have glasses that focus at the right distance. It will make a big difference. I use a 12.9 inch iPad with glasses that focus at the right place. I’m 67 and it works for me.

I use only the very best cheap reading glasses from Amazon. Currently 1.5 diopter for computer/music reading and 1.75 for reading reading. I'm 77 and it works for me.

I've just realized that a big issue here is the aspect ratio of the screen and what's being displayed on it. This makes it difficult to compare "notebooks" or "readers" -- especially Apple to others -- since the aspect ratios are different. I believe that this was part of the basic design considerations for these products and has given iPads something of an edge as "readers". Basically, I think that non-iPad users need to be prepared to get laptops/notebooks with larger screens in order to achieve an ease of reading level (at least for music and, more generally, non-flowed text or other content) that the iPads provide with their different aspect ratios. But I won't dive into that here.

iPads are I think all 4:3 aspect ratio, or 1.333 to 1, while a lot of laptops and non-apple tablets have a 16:9 aspect ratio, or 1.778 to 1. Some even have 21:9 aspect ratios.

Standard letter paper is 11 by 8.5 inches, or a 1.294 to 1 aspect ratio. A4 paper, used in most areas that are not the united states, is 1.414 to 1. So in most cases, an iPad is going to match up better with a single sheet of music.

I use a 12.9 inch iPad Pro and Forscore. I also have a bluetooth foot pedal which I really like. I have an ipad stand but I prefer to put my ipad on a regular music stand.

If you have an android phone, use the genius scan app to scan your music in. Then, either email it to yourself or use Signal to send it over to your ipad. I think the paid version lets you sync to google drive but I did not feel the need.

If you have an iphone, I think you can put the forscore app on your phone and air drop your music to your ipad.

As you add to your library, its important to stay organized. I like to use the genre metadata field to put what ensemble each piece of music is comes from.

I like having a set list for concerts so I can tap through to the next piece and don't have to shuffle through a big folder of music.

I also use a curriculum when I practice. I put each etude into a set list and tap through them instead of switching between books and flipping through pages.

I'm going to take back part of what I said about the advantageous aspect ratio of the iPads. That may be "old time thinking". It is an advantage if you want the entirety of each page displayed on your screen and then you scroll left to right (mimicking paper page turning).

But you don't need to do that. What's most important is for the width to be sufficient to get full horizontal display of the music. Then, you can scroll vertically rather than horizontally -- and basically have an effect much like scrolling flowed text. You don't have to display the entire page in order to play a number of fully displayed lines in sequence, and just scroll down quickly or during rests. And the display software often will support dynamic incremental scrolling as well. This would also seem to work well with A4 or other sizes of paper (with other aspect ratios) from which a PDF is made.

So I'm now thinking that a somewhat larger screen (on the Chromebook) would be beneficial to me because it would provide more horizontal space and increased staff size, while allowing effective vertical scrolling. But I've got to try this out in days to come.

sacfxdx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:06 pm Be sure you have glasses that focus at the right distance. It will make a big difference. I use a 12.9 inch iPad with glasses that focus at the right place. I’m 67 and it works for me.

Yes, this is one of the big advantages for me. Once I have the glasses focus and the stand distance matched, I don't have to compromise to read page two, or five. It's much easier to get one page in focus, even if with a small tablet you end up with the stand close.

Last year, we played a piece with many pages, including multi-page jumps for D.S. and coda. One of the trumpet players used a tablet (I have no idea which app), and had trouble with those. Can you program that sort of thing, or do you have to write out the repeats, or memorize some number of clicks forward and back?

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:55 pm Last year, we played a piece with many pages, including multi-page jumps for D.S. and coda. One of the trumpet players used a tablet (I have no idea which app), and had trouble with those. Can you program that sort of thing, or do you have to write out the repeats, or memorize some number of clicks forward and back?

Using forScore, it’s easily doable. Most of what I play are jazz charts, at most 5-6 pages with repeats and codas. I use the forScore rearrange function to move/copy pages such that I never have to go backwards in a score, and am always turning just one page at a time. I can see how it might be more complicated, but still workable, if you’re playing a 3 hour show in the pit.

Bill

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:55 pm Last year, we played a piece with many pages, including multi-page jumps for D.S. and coda. One of the trumpet players used a tablet (I have no idea which app), and had trouble with those. Can you program that sort of thing, or do you have to write out the repeats, or memorize some number of clicks forward and back?

For Android or Windows, Mobile Sheets allows you to "link" pages so you can jump between D.C./D.S. al coda/fine without unnecessary and time consuming turning. They'll appear as highlighter-colored dots.

I'm not one for copying and rearranging pages, though I'm sure it can be done.

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 6:33 pm For Android or Windows, Mobile Sheets allows you to "link" pages so you can jump between D.C./D.S. al coda/fine without unnecessary and time consuming turning. They'll appear as highlighter-colored dots.

Thanks for this. Now I don't have to look up how to do it on MobileSheets. I'm really progressing with MobileSheets quite nicely in just a couple of days. My only knock on it is that typical developer approach of "Here's ALL the stuff this can do. Good luck finding what you want," as opposed to "Here's a task-oriented approach to using MobileSheets from your user perspective." But since I was, after all, and among other things, a developer for about 25 years, I can just tough that out.

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 6:33 pm

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:55 pm Last year, we played a piece with many pages, including multi-page jumps for D.S. and coda. One of the trumpet players used a tablet (I have no idea which app), and had trouble with those. Can you program that sort of thing, or do you have to write out the repeats, or memorize some number of clicks forward and back?

For Android or Windows, Mobile Sheets allows you to "link" pages so you can jump between D.C./D.S. al coda/fine without unnecessary and time consuming turning. They'll appear as highlighter-colored dots.

I'm not one for copying and rearranging pages, though I'm sure it can be done.

I didn't know that. I've been setting the file to play page 1 then 2 then 1 then 2, and always clicking forward. That was simple. Now I have to try the link method.