TromboneChat

Anyone in here coincidentally playing the tenorhorn (the German instrument) as a doubling? I think it is sometimes referred to as oval Euphonium in English speaking countries.

What are your experiences? What equipment do you use?

Recently I get asked to play tenorhorn parts in wind orchestras pretty regularly. So far I always use my Euphonium for that, but now I'm thinking about getting one. Maybe anyone has experiences with that over here?

I play an Amati Bb oval baritone. I use it for polka brass band. It has a nice clear, bright sound. The low register is not very good on these compared to an English euphonium. It can be borderline unusable for G and below, but that's not what you're using it for most of the time. A real German tenorhorn would have a smaller bore profile and bell diameter but could still be in Bb. But in England, the tenor horn is in Eb and has an upright bell. I don't know that oval baritone would be the right instrument for a tenor horn part in a wind orchestra. What key are the parts in?

EDIT: I missed that you are talking about a German band, so please disregard my last sentence.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:19 pm But in England, the tenor horn is in Eb and has an upright bell.

Those are usually called alto horns as used in british style brass bands. Not at all the same role as a german tenorhorn, a baritone or a euphonium.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:27 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:19 pm But in England, the tenor horn is in Eb and has an upright bell.

Those are usually called alto horns as used in british style brass bands. Not at all the same role as a german tenorhorn, a baritone or a euphonium.

Called alto horn in the US, but I'm pretty sure it's called tenor horn in a British brass band.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:38 pm

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:27 pm

Those are usually called alto horns as used in british style brass bands. Not at all the same role as a german tenorhorn, a baritone or a euphonium.

Called alto horn in the US, but I'm pretty sure it's called tenor horn in a British brass band.

Yes sorry. I wasn't clear. Nomination is more than confusing on those things

I would prefer an English style 3 valve compensated Bariton for an German tenor horn part. Intonation of 123 compensated is better than 24 uncompenated. Bore and bell size match close enough.

If you use an uncompensated 4 valve tenor horn, make sure you can manipulate slides to get the akward combinations in tune.

More important for the group sound us that you and everybody can and will play in tune, than the right sound of your own instrument.

EriKon wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 12:35 pmI think it is sometimes referred to as oval Euphonium in English speaking countries.

More often an "oval baritone" here in the USA - though we're terrible about the whole "baritone" vs. "euphonium" thing.

Looking at the Amati (Cerveny) and Mirafone websites, both make a clear distinction between their oval tenorhorns and their oval baritones. They're both 9' Bb instruments, but tenorhorns are significantly smaller than baritones.

Cerveny tenorhorns are .520"/13.2 mm bore with a 9.45"/240 mm bell; they seem to have two different sizes of baritone; .598"/15.2 mm bore with a 10.2"/260 mm bell and .638"/16.2 mm bore with an 11.8"/300 mm bell (I'm inclined to call the larger size a "Kaiser" baritone).

Miraphone oval tenorhorns are .547"/13.9 mm bore with a 10.63/270 mm bell, while their oval baritones have a .579"/14.7 mm bore with an 11.417"/290 mm bell. They also offer oval Kaiser baritones; .610"/15.5 mm bore with a 12.205'/.610" bell.

As for the nomenclature? It's a complete mess. It's different in the UK and Commonwealth countries than it is in most of the rest of the world. In the USA, tenor horns died out almost a century ago and most people (even musicians) use the terms "baritone" and "euphonium" interchangeably, even though the two are different instruments.

If a piece has both a tenorhorn part and a euphonium part, I would avoid using a euphonium for the tenorhorn part; IMHO, the whole point of have two different parts is to have two different sounds. An actual oval tenorhorn would be ideal. If that's not practical, the least inappropriate second choice would probably be a British-style baritone.

EDIT: Sorry if some of you find this to be an "angels dancing on the head of a pin" kind of post. Technical details are kinda what I do.

I had no expose to real European wind band parts, but, are tenorhorn parts really separated from so called bariton parts or euphonium parts?

I have an antique tenorhorn made by Bohland&Fuchs, and I think its tone is somewhere between euphonium and British baritone horn.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenorhorn
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritonho ... _Euphonium

A lot of good readings here. According to this, dominance of euphonium in wind band is result of influence of English-speaking countries, and maybe we're losing subtle diversity in brass culture.

Doldom wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:43 pm I had no expose to real European wind band parts, but, are tenorhorn parts really separated from so called bariton parts or euphonium parts?

Not sure how common it is (I don't see a lot of European publications), but I have seen a couple examples.

Here's one we played a couple years ago:
https://www.rundel.de/en/article/the_so ... e/MVSR3342

The euphonium and the tenorhorn parts diverge at around page six of the score (basically once the solo is over).

To be honest, the pieces I've seen with tenorhorn parts have all been from Germany; whether other European countries use the same instrumentation I cannot say.

I've noticed that wind band music published in Germany also tends to have a flugelhorn part.

I have a Miraphone 3V tenorhorn and play it regularly on the TH part in wind orchestras and a 7-piece group (2xFH, TRP, TH, BAR, TUBA, PERC).

It’s tricky to play in tune, lots of lip adjustment necessary. It isn’t uncommon for people to play the TH part on oval baritone, preferring the warmer sound and generally easier playability. There is also a bit of a convergence between TH and Baritone with some makers making pretty large TH that could almost pass for a baritone.

I like the sound of a TH, especially on the March/polka stuff which a lot of wind orchestras have in their entertainment programme (Südböhmische Polka, Auf der Vogelwiese, Böhmische Liebe, Dem Land Tirol, Kammbläser March, Böhmischer Traum usw). It has a lighter sound, in German people might also say ‘knackig’. I wouldn’t play TH for a concert programme of non-Böhmisch repertoire, I think the suggestion of a British baritone would be better for that. For the Böhmisch stuff the blend of oval TH and Baritone can be very nice.

I’m thinking of getting a tuning slide trigger fitted to my TH. It would certainly make things easier but actually I don’t find a lot of parts in the range it would really help for, and many of those are doubled on baritone/trombone (bass section solos) so you can back off, lip it down and not worry about whether you have the absolutely richest middle-of-slot sound. Either that or just temporarily pull out the 3rd tuning slide a bit and don’t forget to push it back in before playing any higher Gb.

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 2:15 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:38 pm
Called alto horn in the US, but I'm pretty sure it's called tenor horn in a British brass band.

Yes sorry. I wasn't clear. Nomination is more than confusing on those things

Yeah, the terminology is all over the place, depending on where you are geographically. I grew up in Brass Bands (in the US) and we always referred to the E flat horn as an Alto Horn. In Britain (and Canada) they usually called it a Tenor Horn.

Meanwhile, Hindemith's Sonata is designated for Alto Horn, and Mahler wrote the opening of the 7th Symphony for Tenor Horn in B flat. The last time we played that here, my colleague played that part on a British B flat Baritone.

When our brass band players used to play quartets with flexible instrumentation (Christmas Carols, for instance), E flat horns could be used either on the alto or tenor voice part. The B flat Baritone was better suited to the tenor line than the bass part. A Euphonium was a better choice for the bottom of a group, but if there were enough players, it was also a good choice to double the melody (soprano line) down an octave.

I guess all of the terminology choices for instruments is a bit strange - Alto flute isn't really in the alto voice range, and Bass trumpet isn't really a "Bass" instrument (and which one - E flat, C or B flat?). It's really just a way to designate that it's a lower instrument in that family.

Jim Scott

I'm pretty home to german wind bands, so I think I can tell you something about the use of the german/oval tenorhorns in Bb flat. They are indeed pretty standard in every typical wind band in Germany and most of the (traditional) literature features indeed separate parts for tenorhorn and baritone/euphonium (as well as separate parts for flugelhorns and trumpets by the way). Both of these parts are usually written in treble clef in Bb-flat and many players can't even read the bass clef. The tenorhorn parts are probably most of the time rather high than low and some players play them with pretty small mouthpieces (sometimes to small in my opinion). The baritone parts can be thought of as the second tenorhorn voice (sometimes the baritone parts features just some stupid rhythm stuff but then nobody plays these parts usually). The baritone parts can be played with a tenorhorn but often are played by baritones which are just a little bigger tenorhorns. Some players also bring euphoniums for the job (tenorhorn parts as well as baritone parts). Some more symphonic/international literature which only features euphonium parts unites all the instruments on those parts.

Now for the instruments itself, the tenorhorn can have 3 or 4 valves but nowadays they often have for valves, the baritones have almost always four valves. A very useful feature which is getting quite popular recently (at least for the better players who care) is a main tuning slide intonation trigger. This allows perfect intonation even with three valves. Both tenorhorns and baritones are not great for the low end of the register and can get very stuffy there, but it's possible to make it work. As written above, some players bring also euphoniums for the job but this is more common for symphonic wind bands/literature.

Instruments not in common use today are the straight tenorhorn or some kind of tenorhorn which is very very tiny. Recently we tidied up our storage room at the local wind band and found some of these instruments. We use them for decoration now.

I also double on tenorhorn and I play a heavily modified alexander mainz tenorhorn with added main tuning slide trigger. It does not look great but plays great and I got it modified and used for good money. The most common "high end" brands which people around here buy nowadays though are Miraphone, Melton, B&S.

If you want to see some great modern tenorhorn playing I suggest you search on youtube for alexander wurz, which is a great player.

Here are some examples:

flugelhorn and tenorhorn duet

tenorhorn quartet

a modern march with a very strong tenorhorn/baritone section

here is another great piece (highly recommend you check out this channel - great rombone stuff as well)

I have a miraphone 47 tenorhorn and a miraphone 56L kaiserbaritone. The Kaiserbaritone is probably a closer match to british euphonium, although it has a wider range of tone colors available to it. The tenorhorn is smaller, not as small as a british baritone, but close to the classic king/conn american baritone/euphonium size. I'm in the US so I don't get too much of an opportunity to play these, but once in a while a german band gig comes around and I enjoy having the most appropriate equipment.

I have also tried the B&S, Alexander, and kuhnl and hoyer. The Alexander was my favorite, but the miraphone ended up being much easier to find used and was almost as good so I went with that.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:46 am I have a miraphone 47 tenorhorn and a miraphone 56L kaiserbaritone. The Kaiserbaritone is probably a closer match to british euphonium, although it has a wider range of tone colors available to it. The tenorhorn is smaller, not as small as a british baritone, but close to the classic king/conn american baritone/euphonium size.

British baritones keep growing. Current production Besson Prestige and Sovereign baritones are .543".

Miraphone 47WL oval tenorhorn = .547" bore, 10.6" bell
Miraphone 54L oval baritone = .579" bore, 11.4" bell
Miraphone 56L oval Kaiser baritone = .610" bore, 12.2" bell
Alexander 151 "baritone tuba"/"Spanish baritone"/tenor tuba = .610" bore, 12.2" bell

Wessex BR140 baritone = .510" bore, 9.5" bell
Besson Prestige 2056 baritone = .543" bore, 9.25" bell

Yamaha YEP-321 euphonium = .571" bore, 11" bell
Besson Prestige 2051/2052 euphonium = .590" bore, 11" or 12" bell
Miraphone M5050 euphonium = .610" bore, 12.2" bell

Conn 2F American (Bb) tenor horn = .531" bore, small bell
Conn 25I American baritone/euphonium = .562" bore, 11.75" bell

Courtois Legend 366 bass saxhorn = .590" bore, 11" bell

In summary, from smallest to largest:

- Traditional British baritone horn
- Oval tenorhorn ≈ modern British baritone horn ≈ early 20th century American tenor horn
- American baritone/euphonium
- Oval baritone ≈ smaller-bore euphonium (a la YEP-321/621, early Boosey/Higham compensators)
- Typical modern compensating euphonium ≈ modern bass saxhorn
- Oval Kaiser baritone = rotary tenor tuba ≈ extra-large compensating euphonium (a la Miraphone M5050)

I've spent some time on a B&S oval tenorhorn that had the sweetest colorful sound. More body to the sound than a British baritone, but still svelte and focused compared to a euphonium or Kaiser baritone. I tend to prefer the sound and feel of piston instruments to rotaries, but I really loved that tenorhorn. I'd love to own a good one.

Speaking of Eb tenor horn (=alto horn) vs. Bb tenorhorn, I have a Cerveny oval Eb althorn on the way. We'll see if I like it more than the British Eb tenor horns I've played in brass bands.

JohnL wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:34 am British baritones keep growing. Current production Besson Prestige and Sovereign baritones are .543".

Yeah, but it's not all about the bore. Look at the difference in the throat of the bell on a besson sovereign versus an oval tenorhorn, it's dramatic. And the first branch size, too. I'd say even the newer prestiges and sovereigns don't play significantly differently than the 1980s and 1990s sovereigns despite the bore change. Whether they compensated for that feel with the leadpipe or if bore just isn't that important on these instruments, I'm not sure. My gut feeling is that they increased the size of the bore for the prestige (and the 956 before that) to deal with the extended low register and then just increased the sovereign to match for ease of manufacturing.

Doldom wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:43 pm I had no expose to real European wind band parts, but, are tenorhorn parts really separated from so called bariton parts or euphonium parts?

Years back I played in a European wind ensemble in the Richmond VA area. (still do, but it has shrunk drastically)

At that time we carried two euphoniums and two tenor horns. Also four trumpets and four fluegelhorns, and three trombones. The parts were different when written properly.

But there were also some composers who seemed only to want the chord covered and did not attend to timbre, and in those cases there might be off beats, for example, doubled in trumpet, tenorhorn, horn, etc.

The German tenorhorn, like the German baritonehorn, except Germany and Austria, is widespread in all Eastern European countries and countries of the former USSR: Czech Republic, Slovakia, former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc. d.
It must be said that the tenorhorn corresponds to the baritonehorn approximately as a small bore trombone to a large bore trombone.
On the German tenorhorn they usually use a small shank trombone mouthpiece, and on the baritonehorn a large shank on new ones or medium shank on old baritonehorns.
In the USSR, future trombonists usually began to learn the German tenorhorn or baritonehorn from about 10 years old, and from the age of 13-14 they transferred to the trombone. The embouchure was already formed; it was only necessary to learn the positions of the trombone.
Later, professional trombonists did not like to play the baritone horn, as it was believed that it would spoil the trombone embouchure.
The tenorhorn in the Soviet brass band had 3 parts.
1 tenorhorn played a melodic part or counterpoint with a baritonehorn, performing the role of a cello in a symphony orchestra. The 2nd and 3rd tenorhorns were peck instruments, as were the althorns and horns.
The German tenorhorn sounds best in the middle and high registers.
Вот так это звучало:

And here is a German tenorhorn maestro:

I play a Lignatone tenorhorn (made by Amati).
Mine takes a standard tenor shank mouthpiece, although pretty far in the receiver, and i usually use a stork T1.
I have played on some tenorhorns that take a European shank.
I have used mine for balkan bands and various jazz/avant settings including with Anthony Braxton and John Hollenbeck.
you can hear my little fanfare for 6 tenor horns here, from my album Ye Olde:



With Slavic Soul Party I went to the Balkans twice and studied with bands and players, mostly in Serbia.
I wrote a little thing on tenorhorns in the Balkans for an old web page that's not up any longer:

"In the Balkans, these instruments are usually called “tenor truba” and “bariton truba” (flugelhorn is called “truba” and helicon is called “bass truba”) but sometimes they are called “bariton truba” and “bass truba” with the helicon called “grandbass truba” or something like that. And even worse, sometimes they just call them “tenor” or “bariton” based on which player is playing a higher part, regardless of what kind of instrument they are playing.
A typical Serbian brass band (trubaci) has two to four tenorhorns. They play in a section, playing 2 to 4 part harmony.
Tenorhorns usually play upbeats, in contrast to the downbeats of the helicon or tuba. Together with the percussion section, they make up the "rhythm section", as their role is primarily rhythmic. Occasionally, tenorhorns carry the melody for a brief section, usually in an interlude, to give the melody players a chance to rest their chops. In addition the player playing the top tenorhorn part may improvise countermelodies from time to time, especially in a kolo (2/4 dance). In some Eastern European traditions, such as the Moldavian brass bands from Romania, a tenorhorn is almost constantly playing a countermelody in addition to 2 or 3 tenorhorns playing upbeats.
I know of no recordings of Serbian brass bands where a tenorhorn has a featured solo. However, in Serbia several tenorhorn players played improvised solos for us, when in the course of teaching us songs they indicated where a flugelhorn solo was supposed to begin. The style of the improvising was identical to the style that flugelhorn players typically play. When we asked them why they never played solos with the band, they replied something like, "He's the leader (the flugelhorn player), he takes the solos."
Oval tenorhorns were created by the esteemed Czech brass firm Cerveny in the late 19th century. Their chief buyers were military bands, who needed an instrument suitable for marching, with a bell that wouldn't be in the way of the players sightlines. Many craftsmen apprenticed at the Cerveny factory and went on to create their own brass instrument companies throughout Europe, using Cerveny's designs. As a result, nearly all brass instrument firms in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland produce oval tenorhorns, as well as the Russian St. Petersburg company and the Czech Cerveny. All other brass firms tend to produce piston valve tenor brass instruments, if they make them at all. Recently and most oddly, Chinese firms have started to produce inexpensive oval tenorhorns in large numbers, presumably because rotary valve production is simpler than that of piston valves. Many players in the Balkans have these instruments, which are imported through Germany. However, the huge numbers of these things appearing on the market suggest that the Chinese know something we don't, and have in mind some untapped market of Balkan-style brass bands popping up all over the US! "

Trombo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:40 am -videos-

Those Red Army videos are fantastic, thank you for sharing!!

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:47 amRecently and most oddly, Chinese firms have started to produce inexpensive oval tenorhorns in large numbers, presumably because rotary valve production is simpler than that of piston valves. Many players in the Balkans have these instruments, which are imported through Germany. However, the huge numbers of these things appearing on the market suggest that the Chinese know something we don't, and have in mind some untapped market of Balkan-style brass bands popping up all over the US! "

Those companies make quite a few head-scratching decisions on what to make/copy. Pocket rotary cornets, Eb and F piston alto valve trombones, the Holton MH-101 Dr. Suess marching French horn, Db trumpets, a Dizzy bell herald C trumpet, and so on. Someone has to be buying them for the companies to keep making them for years...but who??

At least tenorhorns have real use!

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:35 am Those companies make quite a few head-scratching decisions on what to make/copy. Pocket rotary cornets, Eb and F piston alto valve trombones, the Holton MH-101 Dr. Suess marching French horn, Db trumpets, a Dizzy bell herald C trumpet, and so on. Someone has to be buying them for the companies to keep making them for years...but who??

They're just so doggone cheap, people buy them out of curiosity, as a gimmick, or as a gift (OOH! Thanks, honey!
I've wanted a shiny metal turd since I missed out on buying a bronzed buffalo chip that time we went to Catalina Island.).

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:35 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:35 am Those companies make quite a few head-scratching decisions on what to make/copy. Pocket rotary cornets, Eb and F piston alto valve trombones, the Holton MH-101 Dr. Suess marching French horn, Db trumpets, a Dizzy bell herald C trumpet, and so on. Someone has to be buying them for the companies to keep making them for years...but who??

They're just so doggone cheap, people buy them out of curiosity, as a gimmick, or as a gift (OOH! Thanks, honey!
I've wanted a shiny metal turd since I missed out on buying a bronzed buffalo chip that time we went to Catalina Island.).

I do love my little Mendini pocket trumpet (which was a gift!).

There are so many instruments out there that players would love to be able to afford and are great cloning candidates...and yet

Bringing it back to tenorhorns, the basic 3-valve Chinese models are a start, but I'd love to see something like one of the fancier Miraphones with 4 valves and a trigger. The used tenorhorn market is mostly very old instruments, often in wall hangar or scrap condition, so the Chinese makers are already in a good position for anyone who wants a tenorhorn but doesn't want to spend 4 figures.

Hot off the press, newly released today is a live video from a recent gig I played on a tenorhorn:



I'm on the end playing a Mirophone tenorhorn, actually this time I was on the baritone part (it's a long story). The woman next to me is playing a Baritone (B&S I think) on the tenorhorn part.

There's a little taste of my tenorhorn sound on the lower octave melody line from around 1:27-1:42, the baritonist was playing off beats there.

These were literally the first notes we played together with those specific group members, no sound check and no full attendence rehearsal so please be gentle!

I took delivery of the tenorhorn's little sister, a Cerveny Eb oval althorn, today.



I'm blown away by the sound - it sounds like an alto euphonium!

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:05 pm I took delivery of the tenorhorn's little sister, a Cerveny Eb oval althorn, today.

I'm blown away by the sound - it sounds like an alto euphonium!

Any clue as to its age?

Coincidentally, I recently took my Miraphone 47L out of its case for the first time in years.

I didn't remember it being such a physically light instrument. Intonation was alright, or at least easy to correct through most of its range. Lower notes, especially below bass staff were problematic, pedals however worked fine.

The sound is at the same time rather light and lean, but still has a baritone-like woofy-ness. And as far as I know that's the way it's supposed to sound like.

Valve action and build quality are extremely good. It's a really, really well made instrument.

As I usually enjoy improvising on valved instruments, I was surprised to find out that the Miraphone doesn't really like to be improvised on - it just sounded "off", for whatever reason. Maybe it's the rotary valves? Or the less familiar sound? The brighter valve trombone, as well as the broader Euphonium both don't show this characteristic.

Anyway, the tenor horn definitely got its niche. Right now I'm not sure about its use outside this particular niche (at least for me). But for the music actually written for it, this Miraphone 47L certainly is a good choice.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:55 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:05 pm I took delivery of the tenorhorn's little sister, a Cerveny Eb oval althorn, today.

I'm blown away by the sound - it sounds like an alto euphonium!

Any clue as to its age?

No idea! If only there was a "Cerveny Loyalist" out there with a serial number list.