TromboneChat

Question for the Bach experts. Did the early New York Bach 36 have a larger bell or a deeper bell than the 36's produced today? I have a stone lined cup mute that is too small for my NY bell. But other 36's I've owned worked and fitted fine. Any ideas?

There were some 36's made with an 8½ inch bell diameter. Jimmy Knepper played one. But as far as I know, the mandrel was the same as the later Model 36. Bach was doing lots of experimenting during this period, and he tracked it pretty carefully with his shop cards, so I tend to believe that the mandrel was kept constant.

You should be able to get a copy of the shop card for your specific instrument from Bach. It would say if the bell mandrel was different from the standard.

Note that the modern 36 and 42 use the same bell mandrel. So mutes that fit one should fit the other. (Piling on saying) Your bell may have been made on a different.mandrel

The design was not necessarily codified back then. I’ve seen 8 inch, 7.75 inch, 8.25 inch, 8.5 inch. Most fit tenor mutes, probably a similar mandrel as today, however some only fit bass trombone mutes. I had a model 30, which was .515/.525 dual bore, I think the mandrel was the same as the Bach 45, bell made to 8 inch instead of 9.

I bet that was an interesting horn

I think they were looser with everything back then. I've got 6 NY 11Cs at the moment and they're *all* wildly different.

My 42G and 42AG bells use bass trombone mutes. The 36 bell I have with fittings to match Shires uses a tenor mute. Bach’s shop was a post Industrial Revolution Burger King. It appears that Bach would build anything anyone wanted, not unlike Leo Fender’s G & L shop that followed the sale of Fender operations.

Thank you folks for your insight. The 36 is in the 10XX serial #. Apparently many of the early NY Bachs had no model numbers stamped. Much experimenting was taking place within the corporation. My mandrel # is 451 on the bell. Slide has no slide lock. Actually a great playing trombone.
It's a keeper. Thanks all.

414 is the usual 36/42 bell mandrel

I know I’ve seen 451 on other bells, but not sure off the top of my head where.

446 is the 34 bell mandrel
465 is the 45/46 bell mandrel
453 is the 50 bell mandrel

Cheers,
Andy

Doug, I played that above mentioned Bach 30 before it was sold.
I would have bought it if I had the $$$
It played so nice and easy

I can totally see that. I had a set of components for awhile on the Shires side that was a 9" bell with a 508/525. Man that was a great setup.5

451 is the 40B mandrel which is very similar to 45 bells, much as the 34 446 mandrel is nearly the same as the 36/42 414 mandrel.

Benn

After a little digging, yup… on 30 and 40 marked bells and the unmodel marked “B” that Noah had….

octavposaune wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 5:11 am 451 is the 40B mandrel which is very similar to 45 bells, much as the 34 446 mandrel is nearly the same as the 36/42 414 mandrel.

Benn

So the 40B and 45B mandrels are different ?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:08 am

octavposaune wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 5:11 am 451 is the 40B mandrel which is very similar to 45 bells, much as the 34 446 mandrel is nearly the same as the 36/42 414 mandrel.

Benn

So the 40B and 45B mandrels are different ?

Yes, as I noted above, the 465 is the usual mandrel for bells marked 45 or 46.

Cheers,
Andy