She Landed One of Music’s Great Gigs, but First Came Boot Camp

[Estraven]

There is an article in this morning’s New York Times about a young euphonium player who competed for a seat in the USMA band, and won it. Then came boot camp at Ft Wood….

(article is behind the NYT paywall)

https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/hy ... gEAAAAAw~~

[bitbckt]

Non-paywall link: https://archive.is/blWeZ

[KWL]

Many, many decades ago when I spent six weeks at Lackland with just my mouthpiece, the word was the members of the Marine Band in DC were not required to go through basic training. Was that true then and is it today?

[BGuttman]

As I understand it, the Marines consider you a Marine first and your MOS (Military Operational Specialty) second. EVERYBODY does boot camp. Musicians then go to Musician training at a different facility.

[rstrauch]

There is one exception: members of the President's Own are exempted from boot camp (if they were not already Marines when they won the job).

[Doug Elliott]

That is correct.
Basically they have to look and act like they're Marines.

[hyperbolica]

I went through boot at Great Lakes with a Naval Academy band member and a DC band member. They still have to go through and learn the basics.

[WGWTR180]

Wait. There's people saying 2 different things here. Do President's Own band members have to do Marine Boot Camp? Please from someone who actually knows.

[harrisonreed]

Wait. There's people saying 2 different things here. Do President's Own band members have to do Marine Boot Camp? Please from someone who actually knows.

The Presidents Own Marines are Marines only in name. They do not attend boot camp. I believe they are the only Marines who do not wear the crossed rifles, because they aren't, well, you know.

In regards to the Army soldier in the OP article:

She should have to go to basic training (it's not called boot camp -- that's Marines). That's always been a requirement in the army. I can't even tell if the article is trying to make a stink about her going or not, but she would have known that prior to enlisting. The Army is now stacking the premiere band soldiers against each other for promotion, and requiring them to attend Army professional schools, etc. So their records will be looked at by a promotion board panel consisting of Adjutant General and regular army Band sergeants major to be considered for promotion. It seems like the Army is trying, ever so slightly, to "regularize" the special band career paths.

[OneTon]

At Lackland in the 1980s, heads of female were not shaved. AFR35-10 (now superseded) specified collar length hair or hair secured above the collar on females as preferred. Extremely short haircuts on women were prohibited. The females were in culture shock anyway.

[WGWTR180]

Wait. There's people saying 2 different things here. Do President's Own band members have to do Marine Boot Camp? Please from someone who actually knows.

The Presidents Own Marines are Marines only in name. They do not attend boot camp. I believe they are the only Marines who do not wear the crossed rifles, because they aren't, well, you know.

In regards to the Army soldier in the OP article:

She should have to go to basic training (it's not called boot camp -- that's Marines). That's always been a requirement in the army. I can't even tell if the article is trying to make a stink about her going or not, but she would have known that prior to enlisting. The Army is now stacking the premiere band soldiers against each other for promotion, and requiring them to attend Army professional schools, etc. So their records will be looked at by a promotion board panel consisting of Adjutant General and regular army Band sergeants major to be considered for promotion. It seems like the Army is trying, ever so slightly, to "regularize" the special band career paths.

Thank you. That was my understanding as well regarding basic for USMB members. I'm not sure why certain people, or person stated that EVERYBODY must go through Marine B.T.
Correct information folks!! Please.

[hyperbolica]

Wait. There's people saying 2 different things here. Do President's Own band members have to do Marine Boot Camp? Please from someone who actually knows.

If it wasn't clear, I was in the Navy. President's Own is Marines. I knew a regular "fleet" Marine musician. and he definitely went to boot camp.

[harrisonreed]

The crazy thing about the 42S (premiere band) promotions, from what I gather, is that it's recently changed to the same board that looks at the 42A Human Resource NCOs (Adjutant General) and the regular 42R Band NCOs. So they will be looking at records of Soldiers with tons of training, assignments, physical fitness scores, weapons scores, deployments, and NCOER ratings talking about how they led and trained Soldiers for 6+ years. When they get to the premiere band 42S's, the same people will see records that are essentially blank, maybe with weapons and fitness, and NCOERS that talk about how they played flute for all the attributes and competencies that are rated:

Character: supported SHARP and EO policies
Intellect : played the flute using education they gained prior to the rating period that I can't talk about.
Presence: was highly visible playing the flute
Leads: turned pages of flute music as assistant chair leader
Develops: practiced the flute extensively throughout rated period, and developed even greater technique
Achieves: performed on flute in 125 missions

Sure, I'm being slightly facetious, but can you imagine being stacked up against your peers after the CSMs read the 42A and 42R NCOERS? To be clear, they aren't going to compete with the 42R and 42A people, but it's the same board.

This is a recent change, too. The premiere bands would just choose who would be promoted within their own ranks. In fact the next boards might be the first time where they aren't doing that.

All that to say, now that they are being promoted the way the rest of the army promotes (sort of, automatic E6 aside), the more "Army" stuff they can get on their records, the easier it will be for the board to evaluate them. Basic training is a short period of time and extremely easy. It's over before you even get used to it.

[2bobone]

When I was in The U.S. Army Band in the 60's, the premiere bands of the Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force bands were located in Washington, D.C. and the surrounding areas. The U.S. Marine Band was well known for not requiring boot camp. I believe the U.S. Coast Guard Band [in New London, CT ?] also dispensed with boot camp for musicians.
There was a Navy School of Music located in Anacostia, MD. I can personally vouch for the fact that the Army boot camp offered no special accommodations for those of us headed to a military band. I'm sure that the U.S. Marine Band did not require boot camp because I knew of some members who could never have completed such an arduous regimen.
I got this great story from an ex-Marine bandsman who later became a French horn player in the NSO : The Marine Band did a LOT of touring and often found themselves in some pretty "seedy" bar/restaurants after playing their concert. Their uniforms were pretty "flashy" with bright reds and blues and brass buttons everywhere. One of the band's members, a flautist, was a very small man who didn't look the least bit like the kind of man the Marine Corps would seek to recruit. He was, however, a fabulous flautist as his ascent to the principal chair in a major symphony orchestra would later prove. One of the "locals" in one of the "seedy" joints decided to harass this Marine flautist in his flashy uniform, thinking that it would be a chance to show how much more manly he was than this small man before him. It didn't take long before the horn player, who was a "big guy" and in great physical condition asked politely for him to stop, go away and let them drink in peace. Of course, like bullies everywhere, he persisted and paid the price. To make his point, the horn player walked over to the bully, grabbed him by the neck and one leg, picked him up over his head and threw him over the bar !! They then continued to drink in peace. Semper Fi !!

[JohnL]

The way the title is worded led me to expect something a good deal more sinister.

[Estraven]

The way the title is worded led me to expect something a good deal more sinister.

Yes, that title was an unusually poor choice of words for the NYTimes. But it’s still a good story.

[Mikebmiller]

I subscribe to the NYT and I’m pretty sure that’s the first time I have ever seen the word “euphonium “ appear in that publication.

There is a good video on the Marine Band YT channel about their new assistant director. The guy emigrated from Cuba when he was 8. He joined a Marine base band straight out of HS without ever going to music school and eventually ended up getting commissioned and appointed assistant director of the President’s Own. That guy has definitely been to boot camp.

[officermayo]

Wait. There's people saying 2 different things here. Do President's Own band members have to do Marine Boot Camp? Please from someone who actually knows.

The Presidents Own Marines are Marines only in name. They do not attend boot camp. I believe they are the only Marines who do not wear the crossed rifles, because they aren't, well, you know.

In regards to the Army soldier in the OP article:

She should have to go to basic training (it's not called boot camp -- that's Marines). That's always been a requirement in the army. I can't even tell if the article is trying to make a stink about her going or not, but she would have known that prior to enlisting. The Army is now stacking the premiere band soldiers against each other for promotion, and requiring them to attend Army professional schools, etc. So their records will be looked at by a promotion board panel consisting of Adjutant General and regular army Band sergeants major to be considered for promotion. It seems like the Army is trying, ever so slightly, to "regularize" the special band career paths.

There are some actual Marine Bandsmen assigned to The President's Own. They fill billers like Drum Major, Librarian, etc. Occasionally a real Marine Bandsman will pass the audition and join The President's Own. One of my Marines left active duty with the field bands and joined TPO. He later jumped ship to join the Army's Pershing's Own.

When a real Marine joins TPO, the give up their crossed rifles and change to the music lyre worn on by TPO. See photo.

Keith Mayo
SSgt. USMC
2nd generation Marine Bandsman
Two tours at Parris Island as a Drill Instructor.

[harrisonreed]

Definitely exceptions to the rule there. Same with Pershings, you will occasionally see bandsmen who switched over from the regular army who have gobs of medals or even CIBs.

[WGWTR180]

Wait. There's people saying 2 different things here. Do President's Own band members have to do Marine Boot Camp? Please from someone who actually knows.

If it wasn't clear, I was in the Navy. President's Own is Marines. I knew a regular "fleet" Marine musician. and he definitely went to boot camp.

You were very clear.

[TomInME]

The way the title is worded led me to expect something a good deal more sinister.

Yes, that title was an unusually poor choice of words for the NYTimes. But it’s still a good story.

The choice of words was intentional: clickbait.

[Macbone1]

The Marine Band did a LOT of touring and often found themselves in some pretty "seedy" bar/restaurants after playing their concert. Their uniforms were pretty "flashy" with bright reds and blues and brass buttons everywhere. One of the band's members, a flautist, was a very small man who didn't look the least bit like the kind of man the Marine Corps would seek to recruit. He was, however, a fabulous flautist as his ascent to the principal chair in a major symphony orchestra would later prove. One of the "locals" in one of the "seedy" joints decided to harass this Marine flautist in his flashy uniform, thinking that it would be a chance to show how much more manly he was than this small man before him. It didn't take long before the horn player, who was a "big guy" and in great physical condition asked politely for him to stop, go away and let them drink in peace. Of course, like bullies everywhere, he persisted and paid the price. To make his point, the horn player walked over to the bully, grabbed him by the neck and one leg, picked him up over his head and threw him over the bar !! They then continued to drink in peace. Semper Fi !!

This is a great story but must have been from the "old days". I did an Air Force band career, and we troops were prohibited from going to bars in uniform. I never learned if that was an Air Force-wide thing, or just for bands because we worked off base so much. Every AF base had clubs where drinking in any kind of uniform was fine, but that was the only place we could.

[Macbone1]

I read that article, and was stunned at how long Basic is now. It used to be 8 weeks for Army and 6 weeks for Air Force. Of course Basic seemed 6 months long to me when I joined the Air Force.

Armed forces recruiting is in the dumper big time these days, with so many young folks so out of shape, "gender confusion" etc. And stories of endlessly recurring deployments to the desert, the PTSD etc. Longer basic training would also be a deterrent.

Hats off to that young lady for committing to endure SO much just to play a euphonium for a living. She could enjoy a 30 yr career at beautiful West Point if she chooses, and a fat lifetime pension after that. Not to mention buying a house locally and staying put to build home equity and have a paid off house upon retirement.
This is not typical for the rest of the military and certainly was not the case with me.
Her choice to shrug off regional band offers at her auditions was wise, since those are the first units to be deactived whenever the military is in a cost cutting mood. I've lived it.

[timothy42b]

There was a Navy School of Music located in Anacostia, MD. I can personally vouch for the fact that the Army boot camp offered no special accommodations for those of us headed to a military band. I'm sure that the U.S. Marine Band did not require boot camp because I knew of some members who could never have completed such an arduous regimen.

At some point the Navy School of Music must have moved. The Army and Navy both attended the Navy School, and it was a good bit farther south and closer to where I worked. At the time there was both a desire to separate the two (they had different length courses and it was a bit of a hassle for scheduling apparently) and a desire to upgrade a very old vacility.

The Army sent me (civilian GS engineer) to evaluate the Navy School conditions and make some recommendations. It was interesting walking the halls of that building and hearing Thoughts of Love, Rochut, etc. from the practice rooms. It was definitely in need of a major rehab at the time.

I've since retired and don't know what eventually transpired.

[Mikebmiller]

I have a friend who is closing in on 20 years as a trumpet player and singer in the Navy Fleet Bands. She has had a blast and gotten paid to travel the world and play music. She loves it.

[tbdana]

At some point the Navy School of Music must have moved.

Yeah, I don't know when it was moved, but as far back as the '70s it was at the Navy base in Little Creek, Norfolk, Virginia (or "Little Crack, Nofuck, Vagina" as the attendees of the day called it).

[WGWTR180]

I read that article, and was stunned at how long Basic is now. It used to be 8 weeks for Army and 6 weeks for Air Force. Of course Basic seemed 6 months long to me when I joined the Air Force.

Armed forces recruiting is in the dumper big time these days, with so many young folks so out of shape, "gender confusion" etc. And stories of endlessly recurring deployments to the desert, the PTSD etc. Longer basic training would also be a deterrent.

Hats off to that young lady for committing to endure SO much just to play a euphonium for a living. She could enjoy a 30 yr career at beautiful West Point if she chooses, and a fat lifetime pension after that. Her habit of shrugging off regional band offers at her auditions was wise, since those are the first units to be deactived whenever the military is in a cost cutting mood. I've lived it.

Wow. I didn't realize that armed forces recruiting is in the dumper big time due to out of shape youth and gender confusion.

[harrisonreed]

Recruiting is in a pinch. A lot of Active Army bands are at 25-30 slots filled out of 41...

Every MOS is like that right now

[2bobone]

"This is a great story but must have been from the "old days"."

Indeed it was ! It was 1961----- 63 years ago ! I heard the story from the French horn player who did the "tossing" of the bully over the bar and a trombone player who was there. Marines will be Marines !

[WGWTR180]

Recruiting is in a pinch. A lot of Active Army bands are at 25-30 slots filled out of 41...

Every MOS is like that right now

That I understand but I highly doubt it's because of out of shape youth and gender confusion.

[harrisonreed]

Out of shape youth, yes, unfortunately it's a big disqualifier. I recently completed a recruiting tour and working with some of the recruiters they lamented about most of their leads being disqualified for health reasons, especially weight related issues

"Gender Confusion" is probably a derogatory term, or at least an uninformed one, and not something the military discriminates against. It does discriminate for age, ability, and fitness. The US military only cares about finding qualified candidates that want to do the job well.

[Macbone1]

Out of shape youth, yes, unfortunately it's a big disqualifier. I recently completed a recruiting tour and working with some of the recruiters they lamented about most of their leads being disqualified for health reasons, especially weight related issues

"Gender Confusion" is probably a derogatory term, or at least an uninformed one, and not something the military discriminates against. It does discriminate for age, ability, and fitness. The US military only cares about finding qualified candidates that want to do the job well.

Gender ambiguity then? It's not a discrimination issue, it's a personal one and a tough choice. Troops are never in a closer or more "intimate" situation than basic training. I'll spare you details, but lining up naked for shower time, then showering in 30 secs with 6 or 8 guys watching and waiting is part of it.

[WGWTR180]

Out of shape youth, yes, unfortunately it's a big disqualifier. I recently completed a recruiting tour and working with some of the recruiters they lamented about most of their leads being disqualified for health reasons, especially weight related issues

"Gender Confusion" is probably a derogatory term, or at least an uninformed one, and not something the military discriminates against. It does discriminate for age, ability, and fitness. The US military only cares about finding qualified candidates that want to do the job well.

Gender ambiguity then? It's not a discrimination issue, it's a personal one and a tough choice. Troops are never in a closer or more "intimate" situation than basic training. I'll spare you details, but lining up naked for shower time, then showering in 30 secs with 6 or 8 guys watching and waiting is part of it.

Macbone1 do you even have a clue about how many people you're speaking of? Any clue at all? You make it sound like half of the people available to enlist have "gender confusion" issues. Yes that's the reason the the US military has trouble recruiting. Wow.

[elmsandr]

Mac, Perhaps you missed the fact that somebody currently serving and working on recruiting just pointed out that you are ill informed. Please use this as an opportunity to stop talking and start listening.

Cheers,
Andy

[BGuttman]

I think Mac was just trying to make a point that gender confusion is not a big factor in suitability for service.

Also, the number of LGBTQ people is a small percentage of the population and that really shouldn't matter much in the overall scheme of things. Out of shape is a much bigger problem. My generation had a lot of fat kids (including me). Nowadays most kids are fat. I think it's McDonald's Revenge.

[Macbone1]

Thank you Bruce, I appreciate that.

But since hackles (I had retracted my discrimination reference to the genders thing) seem to be rising on this subject (which I read in a news source, I did not make it up) I will comply with all requests to "shut it".

And yes, why should anyone listen to someone who served 26 honorable years in the USAF alongside great musicians, to include gays and lesbians; good friends one and all? Sorry for the defensiveness and have a nice day.

[WGWTR180]

Mac, Perhaps you missed the fact that somebody currently serving and working on recruiting just pointed out that you are ill informed. Please use this as an opportunity to stop talking and start listening.

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks Andy. I guess I'll stop. Consider myself gone.

[WGWTR180]

I think Mac was just trying to make a point that gender confusion is not a big factor in suitability for service.

Also, the number of LGBTQ people is a small percentage of the population and that really shouldn't matter much in the overall scheme of things. Out of shape is a much bigger problem. My generation had a lot of fat kids (including me). Nowadays most kids are fat. I think it's McDonald's Revenge.

Bruce I get some of this. But where I live most kids are NOT fat. Maybe they can't run a marathon with 40 or so pounds strapped across their backs but they're not fat. Generalizations kill.

[WGWTR180]

Thank you Bruce, I appreciate that.

But since hackles (I had retracted my discrimination reference to the genders thing) seem to be rising on this subject (which I read in a news source, I did not make it up) I will comply with all requests to "shut it".

And yes, why should anyone listen to someone who served 26 honorable years in the USAF alongside great musicians, to include gays and lesbians; good friends one and all? Sorry for the defensiveness and have a nice day.

Look firstly maybe if you had worded your first post differently it would've been understood better. Secondly I don't know who you are-how would I? I keep forgetting that this forum is loaded with non career trombonists. So don't come on here after the fact and sandbag me by stating about your 26 years in recruiting. Sorry 26 honorable years.....

[elmsandr]

Mac, Perhaps you missed the fact that somebody currently serving and working on recruiting just pointed out that you are ill informed. Please use this as an opportunity to stop talking and start listening.

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks Andy. I guess I'll stop. Consider myself gone.

To be clear, I was responding to Macbone, not you Bill.

I want to actually thank you for being the first to push back on the initial comment. Need more of that in this world, even if it sometimes gets crossed in replies sometimes.

Cheers,
Andy

[tbdana]

Gender ambiguity then? It's not a discrimination issue, it's a personal one and a tough choice. Troops are never in a closer or more "intimate" situation than basic training. I'll spare you details, but lining up naked for shower time, then showering in 30 secs with 6 or 8 guys watching and waiting is part of it.

Just popping in to note that, at least back in the day (I have no idea what happens now), women did not have to "line up naked for shower time, then shower in 30 secs with 6 or 8 [people] watching and waiting." This must be a guy thing, and I can't imagine what the purpose of it would be. Do they really do that?

[BGuttman]

Just to set the record straight: Mac played in the Air Force Band of America based first at Pease AFB in New Hampshire and then based at Hanscom AFB in Massachusetts when Pease closed. Then the Air Force disbanded his organization in a cost-cutting move. I have played with Mac in several ensembles and can vouch for his musicianship (not that I can play at his level -- I can't). I do consider him a friend and colleague.

[Macbone1]

[/quote]
Look firstly maybe if you had worded your first post differently it would've been understood better. Secondly I don't know who you are-how would I? I keep forgetting that this forum is loaded with non career trombonists. So don't come on here after the fact and sandbag me by stating about your 26 years in recruiting. Sorry 26 honorable years.....
[/quote]

26 years in bands not recruiting. An accusatory tone will often rate a response. My apologies for any confusion resulting from my wording.

[WGWTR180]

Thanks Andy. I guess I'll stop. Consider myself gone.

To be clear, I was responding to Macbone, not you Bill.

I want to actually thank you for being the first to push back on the initial comment. Need more of that in this world, even if it sometimes gets crossed in replies sometimes.

Cheers,
Andy

Sorry. Thx.

[WGWTR180]

Look firstly maybe if you had worded your first post differently it would've been understood better. Secondly I don't know who you are-how would I? I keep forgetting that this forum is loaded with non career trombonists. So don't come on here after the fact and sandbag me by stating about your 26 years in recruiting. Sorry 26 honorable years.....
[/quote]

26 years in bands not recruiting. An accusatory tone will often rate a response. My apologies for any confusion resulting from my wording.
[/quote]

Understood. Apologies.

[Macbone1]

[/quote]
Just popping in to note that, at least back in the day (I have no idea what happens now), women did not have to "line up naked for shower time, then shower in 30 secs with 6 or 8 [people] watching and waiting." This must be a guy thing, and I can't imagine what the purpose of it would be. Do they really do that?
[/quote]

They did indeed do that when I was there. It wasn't every morning but it happened a few times. It was to save time and to make sure everyone was cleaned up and on time for chow after a long sweaty formation or drill.

[Macbone1]

Just to set the record straight: Mac played in the Air Force Band of America based first at Pease AFB in New Hampshire and then based at Hanscom AFB in Massachusetts when Pease closed. Then the Air Force disbanded his organization in a cost-cutting move. I have played with Mac in several ensembles and can vouch for his musicianship (not that I can play at his level -- I can't). I do consider him a friend and colleague.

Thanks again Bruce. Guess l won't dip my toe in THOSE waters again...

[harrisonreed]

Armed forces recruiting is in the dumper big time these days, with so many young folks so out of shape, "gender confusion" etc. And stories of endlessly recurring deployments to the desert, the PTSD etc. Longer basic training would also be a deterrent.

I think Mac was just trying to make a point that gender confusion is not a big factor in suitability for service.

How could you have even inferred that? It reads 100% the opposite.

Anyways, there is a lot of outdated info here. The Army, at the very least, is almost night and day different today on the issues brought up here since I joined in 2010. And 2010 was night and day different from the Army of the 00's and 90's.

I have no doubt that Mac served in a completely different kind of military environment than the one we have today. Those were absolutely legitimate bars to service prior to the repeal of DADT.

For the record, the correct term is "gender dysphoria", it's extremely rare, and the entire military already had their freak out over shared facilities. In practice it's been a non-issue. Even when I went to infantry OSUT in 2010, we had stalls in the showers.

Please reach out to me if anyone wants current info, but this is really moving far away from the OP.

[Macbone1]

the correct term is "gender dysphoria", it's extremely rare, and the entire military already had their freak out over shared facilities. In practice it's been a non-issue. Even when I went to infantry OSUT in 2010, we had stalls in the showers.

Thank you for the terminology clarification.
Yes, the military has evolved several times over since l enlisted. To include valuing its bands less and less, and closing them down when the mood strikes.

[timothy42b]

Anyways, there is a lot of outdated info here. The Army, at the very least, is almost night and day different today on the issues brought up here since I joined in 2010. And 2010 was night and day different from the Army of the 00's and 90's.

Even when I went to infantry OSUT in 2010, we had stalls in the showers.

A long way from the OP, but close to my mission for 30 years.

When I started as a civilian engineer and Army employee in 1992, at my location all latrines and showers in barracks and gyms were "gang" latrines. None of the barracks had air conditioning. There were even some male bathrooms with the infamous "trough" feature.

During my career my organization converted all gyms to shower stalls and the new standard is to build them that way. All of those existing barracks had air conditioning added; most of these have since been demolished and replaced with new. All new barracks I built had bathrooms shared between each two rooms.

None of this was easy, given the constraints of available funding and contracting regulations.