TromboneChat

I've got a theory that there are basically 4 types of rooms you can play in. They are:

Live with good reverb
Live with bad reverb
Dead with no feedback
Dead with bad feedback

We obviously all love "live with good reverb". These are the rooms that fill up with sound and seem to help you play with ease. The concert hall in Ofunato Japan is a great example of this that I've played in -- it takes in sound, seems to spit it back at you better than you thought you even sounded, and seems to amplify anything you do.

The "live with bad reverb" could be either brittle short reverb, or reverb that is so long that it makes what you play sound like mud. In the worst case you are actively working against reverb that is strong but in a completely different key, it's so old.

"Dead with no feedback" are rooms that eat up all the sound quickly, diffuse it, and isolate your sound. A good Wenger module is an example of this - these rooms are actually easy to play in because your sound actually has somewhere to go. It hits the porous walls and then bounces around for a second in the walls so you can hear it but you aren't fighting it. A small concert venue with lots of people sitting in it can be like this too - not actually difficult to play in, but it just sounds "dead".

"Dead with bad feedback" are rooms where there is a lot of potential for reflections but the sound has nowhere to go. A lot of older college practice rooms and classrooms are like this. Tiny, with tile floors, drywall, and ceilings that are barely acoustically treated. In these rooms it is actually difficult to play anything. There isn't much perceptible reverb, so you can't hear yourself, and the reflections are so close that they fight against your sound. It's even worse if you try to rehearse an ensemble in a room like this (classroom sized). Not only will you fight your own reflections, but you'll be fighting the other members of the group as well.

The theory (and this is one that Bousfield talks about a bit in his method book) is that the fourth type of room, "dead with bad feedback", acts like a phase inversion on a speaker. You know, back in the day people would phase invert a signal on a speaker and it would act to cancel out the normal signal from the other speaker. You could use this to isolate vocals or other parts of the track. But for brass players, your sound reflects off the wall (which is only a few feet away) and comes back nearly as strong as the source. The reflection is offset by a few ms, and the waves are nearly the same size as the source, so they act to cancel out your playing. One room I played in I literally had an "air biscuit" (I think that's what Reinhardt called it) where the note would start and then immediately my lips were just locked open, barely vibrating. Step outside into the large hallway, and it's great. Step back into the ensemble room, "air biscuit".

I just wanted to see if anyone else has found this to be true. I never have an issue in the wengers, even though they are the smallest room you can play in, but the small ensemble room is difficult to play in 100% of the time. Maybe some "bad chop days" are really just down to playing in the wrong space?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 7:10 am "Dead with no feedback" are rooms that eat up all the sound quickly, diffuse it, and isolate your sound. A good Wenger module is an example of this - these rooms are actually easy to play in because your sound actually has somewhere to go. It hits the porous walls and then bounces around for a second in the walls so you can hear it but you aren't fighting it. A small concert venue with lots of people sitting in it can be like this too - not actually difficult to play in, but it just sounds "dead".

This is the kind of room that I practice in at home. I have a home theater that is acoustically designed and treated for movies, and you've perfectly described the sound in that room. The room is covered in sound "traps" and diffusers so that there is very little direct reflection of sound, but it is not completely "dead." I don't know the technical terms, but it's treated so that there are no overlapping sound reflections and the majority (but not all) of the sound is absorbed rather than reflected, and none of what is reflected is reflected twice.

It's "easy" to play in that room, but it's not exactly pleasing. The good thing is that it is "accurate" so that I hear exactly what I play, with no overlapping reverb and no enhancements. The "bad" thing is that the room adds nothing to enhance the sound so it's not at all the sound you'd get in any kind of performance hall. It's great for practicing, though.

What I didn't see in your list was the kind of room I've experienced in most recording studios, which have a live sound that is tightly controlled. Enough to sound "live" but the sound also diffuses so quickly so that you wouldn't say it has "reverb" exactly. These rooms all have high ceilings and irregular shapes. They don't give the kind of feedback a concert hall has, but still sound very good. Would that be another category or does it fit into one of the four?

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 8:08 am
What I didn't see in your list was the kind of room I've experienced in most recording studios, which have a live sound that is tightly controlled. Enough to sound "live" but the sound also diffuses so quickly so that you wouldn't say it has "reverb" exactly. These rooms all have high ceilings and irregular shapes. They don't give the kind of feedback a concert hall has, but still sound very good. Would that be another category or does it fit into one of the four?

I think that could still be in the "live with good reverb" category. Good reverb can be long or short. I know exactly the kind of room you're talking about.

I think the biggest thing is that a lot of college have a plethora of the fourth type, dead with bad feedback. Ironically, the only setup that works well in these rooms for me is a deeper mouthpiece, bigger setup overall. I wonder what effect that has on the equipment choices that college students make. In a great room a much more efficient setup will sound better, but can be very difficult to play in the practice room.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 8:33 amI think the biggest thing is that a lot of college have a plethora of the fourth type, dead with bad feedback.

Gotta wonder what playing in that sort of environment day after day does to some students' morale.

I practice at home in a room very similar to what Dana describes, but intentionally setup for that purpose - it’s a practice room, not a movie room. Our theater room in the basement is similarly treated, but I never play in there. Too dark and cavernous. I think my practice is more focused and efficient in that sort of room than in the other categories.

Which is also to say that I agree with the categorization. Lately, I’ve been playing in a variety of oddly-shaped spaces with strange ceilings (for one reason or another) and that diversity really enlightens a person to room dynamics quickly. The ceiling reflections are particularly “fun” for the tubists.

For me, playing in different rooms is a lot like doubling. One has to find the way the room needs to be played in. The problem would be getting stuck playing in the same room every day. That's why I learned to lever the bolt on the recital hall door at university. Nice to play in a big space as much as possible.

VJOFan wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 6:20 am For me, playing in different rooms is a lot like doubling. One has to find the way the room needs to be played in. The problem would be getting stuck playing in the same room every day. That's why I learned to lever the bolt on the recital hall door at university. Nice to play in a big space as much as possible.

I agree. I think you need to learn to play in room types 1-3, but type 4 should probably be avoided. You almost never perform in such a room, and have to make potentially detrimental compromises to be able to play in them.