TromboneChat

A new YT series on developing low range on bass trombone:

Amazing and inspiring how much knowledge and wisdom he shares with the trombone world in his free time. Very helpful !!
His sound is unbelievable.

I can't wait to watch this one

Wk 2 is up.

Played along with both today. Good stuff.

I have been doing these exercises for the past week and a half and I'm already noticing a difference in my ability to keep my embouchure more stable and make less drastic movements. I play Wave every month with a big band on bass bone and this past Tuesday was the best I've ever played it - I was able to find the center of each note much more easily than in the past and more often.

I know from my lessons with Doug Elliott that I'm supposed to minimize movements as much as possible. These exercises have shown me how much I'm still moving when changing notes, even when I think I'm not. And I still have some work to do to get to where I want to be.

#3:

#4:



I’ve been doing these for the past 3 weeks with good results I think. A brief warmup and then play along with Mr. Markey. If nothing else, a nice way to start the day. Mr. Markey’s positivity is an added bonus.

I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure. I'm doing great with Part 1 and Part 2, so I've moved onto Part 3. That's where things start to get a bit shaky. About 50% of the time I'm not able to center the notes exactly the way that I want when I slur between 3rds and 4ths. So I will stick with the Part 3 exercise for a while until my success rate improves up to at least 75%.

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 9:34 am I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure.

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 8:07 am

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 9:34 am I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure.

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

The exercises start on middle F, so I'm trying to keep that same embouchure setting and extend that down into the low range. By practicing that, I'm able to minimize the movements that I have to make and still keep a good sound. This is improving my flexibility. The more I do this, the easier it will become to switch registers quickly.

JeffBone44 wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 11:36 am

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 8:07 am

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

The exercises start on middle F,

Yes. That's too low a starting note for me in general.

I've been following these videos and doing the exercises. My high range has gotten better from playing these. The idea is that you stay engaged with the embouchure as you play lower (something many players don't do, which means when they ascend again they are too flabby).

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 7:45 pm I've been following these videos and doing the exercises. My high range has gotten better from playing these. The idea is that you stay engaged with the embouchure as you play lower (something many players don't do, which means when they ascend again they are too flabby).

That's definitely something to think about, and I am working on that as well. In general when switching ranges my embouchure automatically becomes flabby.

They remind me a bit of the note matching Sam Burris taught when mouthpiece buzzing.

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musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:51 am
"the “shift” starts on pedal g going down without a shift - the tone fades
lowest being a soft pedal d.
With his shift “… allowing myself to make a change”
diametrically opposed to Mr. Gilford."

No, actually that's exactly where Matt said he was as an undergrad.
Matt's learned a lot in his 33 years in the NSO.

Charlie Vernon used to shft a lot, now he doesn't. I knew him all the way back when he was in the Baltimore Symphony.

Markey's still learning.

People who advocate shifting like the instant gratification, but haven't really learned much yet.

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Well... that said a whole lot of nothing.

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Well you just pointed out how his attitude has changed in 6 years. Don't you think it would be interesting to see where he is in another 6, or 20, or 30 years?

I like to use Charlie as an example. I've been watching his playing as it's evolved for 50 years.

Playing mechanics either evolve better, or fall apart. Take your choice.

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You wanna bring Phil Teele into this? He advocated no shifting but never really talked about how to accomplish that.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

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Teele has several YT videos demonstrating his approach.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 1:09 pm .

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.

A lot of trombonists play flat, and that's usually ok. Listening to the latest round if ITF recitals, most people were under the piano tuning. I think that as orchestral and section musicians we lower our 3rds and 7ths using just intonation to make the chords ring, so often that when we play with piano we forget to be "on top" of the pitch as much as needed.

Also tuning with a tuner can be useful to find a baseline of pitch and make sure we don't drift radically far, but by itself it doesn't do a lot else. Tuning is contextual. You can be dead on at A-440 and be slightly wrong most of the time in the industry.

The whole shifting question is interesting, but I can't see there being one universal rule for everyone, like swinging a baseball bat or throwing a football (let alone painting! we are an art as much as a physical activity.)

I like to recommend Minimal Motion for Maximum Efficiency (I've said it enough now that it's in caps), but if the sound is reliably good, reproducible, and not causing discomfort of any sort, then I don't mess much with the production unless a certain barrier or plateau is being encountered.

Jim's exercises are solid - I personally feel they might be a touch on the loud side, but it makes sense with his job.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:40 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 1:09 pm .

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.

Mine was doing the same. I wouldn't worry so much about matching him and having it match the tuner.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:28 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:40 pm

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.

Mine was doing the same. I wouldn't worry so much about matching him and having it match the tuner.

That’s a relief. I thought the same thing.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:16 pm
Also tuning with a tuner can be useful to find a baseline of pitch and make sure we don't drift radically far, but by itself it doesn't do a lot else. Tuning is contextual. You can be dead on at A-440 and be slightly wrong most of the time in the industry.

As a tenor player with a valve, this is the most concentrated effort I've made using it a lot and there are some tuning quirks I need to improve.

I've also tentatively concluded we amateurs should use trigger instead of 6th and 7th whenever possible, because it's easy to make a small adjustment and stay in tune, whereas that's difficult to impossible when your arm is stretched way out.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:16 pm A lot of trombonists play flat, and that's usually ok. Listening to the latest round if ITF recitals, most people were under the piano tuning. I think that as orchestral and section musicians we lower our 3rds and 7ths using just intonation to make the chords ring, so often that when we play with piano we forget to be "on top" of the pitch as much as needed.

I don't think this is okay. People playing flat as a rule doesn't sound nice to me. The way classical trombonists are (not) trained to play melodies and (not) trained to play with 12tet ensembles leaves a lot to be desired. Violinists harp on ensemble tuning vs soloistic intonation, why can't we? The instinct, like you say, is to lower the 3rds and 7ths but when you play in a recital, where you have the melody, the right thing to do is to actually raise your 3rds and 7ths in major scales.





The really crazy thing is that even in pop music they have this figured out -- Melodyne is one of the industry standards for pitch correction and it will default to Pythagorean tuning for the key you're in, and they will linearly tune the lead singer to Pythagorean scales (you literally drag the box out linearly along the melodic line). For chords, 12TET would be most common so for the notes that are held out they select the chord vertically by dragging, and tune it to 12TET if necessary. Of course, just intonation is also an option for folk groups so you can also build the just chord vertically as a compromise, built around the Pythagorean pitch of the main melody, or compromise all the notes including the melody to JI within the 12TET "anchor".

That is to say, even the general public subconsciously has an ear for this kind of tuning, but classical trombonists often default to flat thirds and 7ths while playing the melody. Doh!

I’m reminded of a local conductor’s comment: it’s better to be sharp than out of tune.

There's definitely some truth to that for higher instruments. Maybe not so much for lower instruments. Stretched octaves sound good.

I know I'm very late to the party but I started doing the first video with my G ContraBass starting on middle D and moving down. This has done wonders for my sound, control and intonation.

These videos have changed my playing a LOT for the better, on all instruments.

Anyway, in reference to Markey being flat, I think it's a byproduct of the camera or recording. There's no way someone that has to play at 441 or 442 at work is casually playing at 438 in 4 videos, back to back.

Maybe this thread can be pinned so it’s always easy to find?

Any suggestions as to how best apply this to tenor and to upper ranges?

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:10 am I've also tentatively concluded we amateurs should use trigger instead of 6th and 7th whenever possible, because it's easy to make a small adjustment and stay in tune, whereas that's difficult to impossible when your arm is stretched way out.

In 7th, you have the additional problem of the slide binding up because gravity keeps the outer from being parallel with the inner.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:13 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:10 am I've also tentatively concluded we amateurs should use trigger instead of 6th and 7th whenever possible, because it's easy to make a small adjustment and stay in tune, whereas that's difficult to impossible when your arm is stretched way out.

In 7th, you have the additional problem of the slide binding up because gravity keeps the outer from being parallel with the inner.

Also, it can pull the mouthpiece away from optimal alignment with your chops. (Depending on your embouchure type, I guess it could improve it, if you need to pivot low and right for that note. But it would be better to do it in T2 and control it.)

When working on not shifting for pedals, do you start with the highest pedal you can play without shifting and then slowly stretch down into lower notes?

This is from my perspective, not Markey's:
It's sort of like that but it helps tremendously to understand how your particular embouchure works, as there are different embouchure types that need different things. Shifting becomes necessary when you're not doing the right things that your chops need.

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Is this what you call shifting? Whatch the jaw bone.

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:33 am I was watching Doc Severinson and Arturo Sandoval the other day and it's remarkable how well they play in that they both shift quite a bit. Adam Rappa too. And interesting how they all shift in the same manner to acheive the same things. So either they're compensating through shifting for otherwise not supplying what their embouchures need, or their embouchures need shifting, so they ... shift.

It would be nice to watch this players "shift", could you pleas post some clips? I am just curious to see what the shift is.

(Marks videos about low range is mostly about the trigger range so far, very good practicing methods. Not about shifting.)

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