TromboneChat

I've been experimenting with this lately... not sure how I found it but it's made a huge difference for me. I'd love to hear what the embouchure experts think.

You can skip the video if you like, it's just got some demonstrations of what I mean.

Perhaps it's obvious to some, but if I think about the actual buzz of my chops happening at the VERY end of my face- the part closest to the instrument- then everything is better. If I use my older habit of using the more meaty parts of the lips towards the teeth, everything is worse, even without tension.

Thanks for posting. I had an embouchure collapse 12+ months ago and this totally chimes with my experience.

My thinking on it is that my lips were turned out into the mp. Meaning the buzz happened on the much softer tissue further inside my mouth. Result was a very breathy note with no core.

Things are on the mend, but it's a slow journey! To get the buzz closer to the instrument I'm almost rolling my lips in. Almost! Maybe more accurate is stopping them falling out

This is probably a thing that a well performed free buzz trains. A free buzz that is not "forward" won't sound like much at all.

VJOFan wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 8:36 am This is probably a thing that a well performed free buzz trains. A free buzz that is not "forward" won't sound like much at all.

Probably true, I've never really been able to transfer my free buzz to the instrument- but I also haven't done it for a couple years.

I don't transfer my buzz per se either. It's just the feel of free flow of air and the firmness of necessary muscles that helps.

I don't "transfer" my high skips and bounds to my running directly either, but the feeling of explosiveness and landing with the foot under my centre of balance sets me up for good form.

Seems like lip curl? if so, I find that typically boosts high frequencies.

Sure, if that helps it is good advice.

It seems to be more of a description of a playing sensation, although that might be what's happening with your buzz. Different players might get the opposite result. If you're playing with your lips too curled and too much in towards the teeth, then feeling like you're moving the buzz forward on the lips would help. For a player with the lips too loose already it might work better for them to feel as if they are moving the buzz *back* instead.

I'm by no means an embouchure expert, and to be honest I have no idea what you're talking about, but I definitely hear that type of sound with some of my students (I think).

Do you find that this happens throughout the range of the instrument or is it specific partials for you?

I'm definitely going to keep this in mind when discussing ways to improve sound/tone with my students. I've noticed that in this post-covid era, where most of my young high school students were beginners on zoom, I'm hearing some really weird habits that didn't get addressed in middle school. Maybe this is part of what they're doing. It's definitely worth asking them what they feel and if they can move the buzz forward.

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 6:09 am Seems like lip curl? if so, I find that typically boosts high frequencies.

No, that wouldn't help response much, or the low range!

Wilktone wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 8:33 am Sure, if that helps it is good advice.

It seems to be more of a description of a playing sensation, although that might be what's happening with your buzz. Different players might get the opposite result. If you're playing with your lips too curled and too much in towards the teeth, then feeling like you're moving the buzz forward on the lips would help. For a player with the lips too loose already it might work better for them to feel as if they are moving the buzz *back* instead.

I'm sure it's not actually what's happening- I can only describe what it feels like. For me it feels like avoiding a "pout" or "pucker," where too much lip is in the mouthpiece trying to be involved.

JLivi wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 8:51 am

Do you find that this happens throughout the range of the instrument or is it specific partials for you?

Throughout the range. I would say it helped something in particular, but it really just works in all ranges. The danger zone on each instrument (3rd partial on tuba, bass trombone, high range on tenors) got much better with this.

Thanks for your thoughts Aiden! It seems to be working for me too. I had a lesson with Doug Elliott recently and this seems to fit nicely to what I learned from him.

I just don't experience my buzz that way. I had an instructor many years ago (a good one) suggest that I try rolling my lips and using a "narrower" part of my lip that is more forward, but I never really got anything useful out of that idea.

That said, perhaps that effect I get anyway out of the "sliding" motion that is the mis-named "pivot" that Doug took me through several years ago. But the actual position of the buzz on my lips feels to me to be secondary to just maintaining the balance between the pitch I want to buzz, the position of my lips on my teeth, and how my tongue focuses my air.

This was a very helpful video for me, found it on youtube on its own the other day and stumbled across this thread today. Not sure how much of it is actually from moving the buzz forward, or just being conscientious about the buzz as a whole. Thanks for posting it mr.burgerbob!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 7:19 pm I've been experimenting with this lately... not sure how I found it but it's made a huge difference for me. I'd love to hear what the embouchure experts think.

You can skip the video if you like, it's just got some demonstrations of what I mean.

Perhaps it's obvious to some, but if I think about the actual buzz of my chops happening at the VERY end of my face- the part closest to the instrument- then everything is better. If I use my older habit of using the more meaty parts of the lips towards the teeth, everything is worse, even without tension.

When I hear this described it resonates also with what I've found works better for me. I discovered a similar sensation but said differently, in my own words. I know I posted about it here years ago. To not forget I also need to describe to myself in words, best is to make pictures that help repeat the feeling of it. My pictures of this I describe as imagening a "duck's bill". It puts my vbrations at the very tip of my lips, that is end of the bill, far away from the teeth, more close to the instrument. To me it makes my lips protrude somewhat. Then I also imagine my emboushure to be like a straw that vibrates, all the way on the inside, so it not just vibrate at the small end, but also at the sides inside the tube (the straw, that is). When I described this someone said it was refered to as a technique called "funnel shaped emboushure" - nothing I had heard of and haven't googled either so can not elaborate
The "funnel" and "straw" FOR ME, is a picture to keep the area that needs to vibrate real soft and to maximize the amount of relevant tissue that needs to vibrate without to make the aparture wider. So to me "duck's bill", "straw" and 'funnel shaped" are nowdays words that trigger ME to find my emboushure. To me what you describe also resonates with me. It resonates with some of the ingredients that could guide to my positioning of my lips, and as you say it works on all instruments, all mouthpieces. I use ut for trumpet, french horn, trombone, bass trombone as well as tuba. Just like you say I have no Idea what I acctually do with my lips but that doesn't matter as long as the words/pictures help. Like Dave says it depends from where you start. From where I come these words and your video make sense and associations that help, for others it could be jibberish.
Good post i like insights and people who experiment and share.

/Tom

There is a trumpet playing system called Balanced Embouchure that talks about Roll-in and Roll-out.

And that's the extent of what I know about it. But maybe this is similar.