Are basses more common now?

[AtomicClock]

When I started in 5th grade, "trombone" meant tenor trombone. And this stayed true throughout high school and college. Even in the "real world", community groups usually had a tenor down on the third part. Only in the last 10 or 15 years did I see a lot of bass trombones, even to the point where they are also being used on 2nd or 1st, because third is full. This could be due to actual changes in popularity, or just the small pond I swim in.

Are basses more prevalent now, in the hobbyist community?

[Elow]

I was pushed to play bass trombone for scholarship opportunities, did that get me more money than if I was playing tenor? Who knows. Band directors like to get kids motivated to play though and it worked for me. I think at the high school level, there is more access to instruments than before. Just think about all the affordable options available now, eastman, Q series, all the other chinese stuff.

[Posaunus]

Are basses more prevalent now, in the hobbyist community?

Yes, bass trombone is much more popular and "prevalent" at all levels than it was a few decades ago.

Many more (and better) bass trombone options these days.

If you build it, they will come?

[stewbones43]

What would solve this conundrum and give more credence to the assumptions would be if a company such as Bach or Yamaha were able to give us a breakdown of the numbers of bass trombones built compared with tenor trombones.
I'm sure there are some bean counters quite happy to press the appropriate button.

Cheers

Stewbones

[TomInME]

I think at the high school level, there is more access to instruments than before.

Very likely. And it seems like every college tenor is told to double on bass now, so a lot of them still have one when they graduate.

I'll say this too: bass can be seen as "easier" than tenor by the uninformed, because it's not the "principal" and "won't have solos". It can be hard to find players for the middle of a section because of this, AND it's still hard to find good bass players.

[JohnL]

It certainly does seem that there are more bass trombones around now than when I was in high school (Class of 1980), college, and then moving into the adult amateur realm.

I think we're seeing the continuation of a trend that started when Bart Varsalona first brought a bass trombone into the Stan Kenton band. Before that, the only place where one was likely to find a bass trombone was in a symphony orchestra. Bart Varsalona kicked off a chain of events that would eventually lead to bass trombone being a standard fixture in professional big bands. From there, it found its way into college and high school jazz bands and thence to concert bands. It was something of a game of leap frog; a few bands had a bass trombone, so some people started writing for it. Then people would want to play those charts, so they'd need add a bass trombone. That meant that more bands would have a bass trombone, so more people would write for it - and so on and so on.

Note that this is a US-centric point of view; I suspect it was different in other parts of the world.

[MrHCinDE]

If I remember correctly from first being around brass bands in the UK from the mid-90s the vast majority of bands in my area owned a bass trombone which was loaned out to the player. There was a generous amount of funding from the “national lottery” and many bands, including also youth bands, got some nice instruments as a result. This also had a bit if a knock-on effect that the players could use the instruments in other groups also (big band, orchestra) and there was some flow down of the “old” instruments to less well funded bands and even younger junior bands. It was pretty rare that I saw someone playing the bass part on tenor in a brass band or big band, slightly more often in concert bands and symphony orchestra.

[Pezza]

In Australia in the mid 80's - early 90's open brass bands had bass trombones.
Concert bands generally only had 1 if the player owned their own.

Uncommon for junior / school bands to have them, unless someone also played 1 in an open band. Most didn't even have a Bb/F tenor. The mid - late 90's saw schools starting to invest in lower brass, retiring 25+ year old instruments.

Lots of junior bands now have gotten the hand me downs as the senior bands replace the old ones. This goes for all instruments, as old Imperials are making way for old sovereigns etc.

[BGuttman]

As I understand it, British Commonwealth groups had bass trombones for a long time, but these were the G Bass, a straight instrument pitched in G, with a rather small bore. It was designed for use with very small bore "pea shooter" tenors used at the time. Switching from a tenor to playing this instrument required more than just a mouthpiece change.

In the US, concert bands used a larger bore tenor for low parts and Big Bands of the 1930s and 1940s tended to use 4 identical instruments. I think it was the generation of teachers including Emory Remington (there were others) who advocated for the "Tenor-Bass" trombone taking a cue from the popular double French Horn that was a very versatile instrument that had become a standard several generations earlier.

When I was in High School (late Pre-Cambrian Era) my school had two instruments with F-attachments that were assigned to the 3rd players. When I was looking for my own instrument it was nearly impossible to find a used one (and my parents couldn't afford something new). Best thing we were able to get was an Olds A-20 Ambassador, which by today's standards would be a small tenor with an F-attachment.

The rush to get large bore instruments with F into commercial ensembles really took hold in the late 1960s and 1970s. I remember the big stir when "Man of LaMancha" required a bass trombone as 2nd for a deep sound; much deeper than the sound of 3 trombones in a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical.

[baileyman]

And Bill Holman said, "They forced me to write a bass trombone part into the old charts. I didn't want to do it. Muddies the sound."

[bitbckt]

Every high school in my county had a bass trombone in the “upper” concert and jazz ensembles in the mid-late nineties. My high school marched with one too (poor Sharlene…). The county and state honor bands, and youth Philharmonic naturally drew a bass chair from that supply.

Only “lower” bands in the schools with two concert bands lacked a bass, as I recall.

Sadly, the music programs in the area are no longer so well-funded, so the rise of the bass chair has also led to a fall: I’m told by my peers who are now band directors that they aren’t as prevalent now.

[although]

In the early 80's, my high school band didn't have loaner trombones (just percussion, tubas, and the biggest woodwinds). I had never heard of a bass trombone. Our director, a trumpet guy, never pointed out to me that I was playing a bass trombone on 1st part while the rest of the section was playing tenors (surely he knew what a bass trombone was?). I even took private lessons for a year or two. That guy never brought it up either.

I played a Remington MP on a Conn 71H, and liked the horn quite well. I did struggle a bit with the very highest parts though. When I was 13, I had asked for a horn with an F attachment, and that's the horn that my folks found in a newspaper want-ad. I played it in middle school, and then through high school. For most of that time, I was playing 1st part. I just thought "wow, I have the best horn! You can tell because it's the biggest!".

The high school was reasonably large (~3000 students) and had an adequately funded band program. Maybe 100 players with a dedicated band room. I don't think bass trombones were well understood or even on people's radar in our area at that time. At least not below college level.

[MStarke]

In Germany both among amateurs and pros I wouldn't say there is a specific lack of bass trombonists. at least in my "space" more pros seem to seriously double tenor and bass than maybe 20 years ago. and more amateurs at least buy a bass trombone.

My experience however is that those people who REALLY can play bass trombone - having a really strong low and extreme low range, but still a good and usable mid and higher range also on bass - are still rare.

So owning and being able to play it are two pairs of shoes.

[JohnL]

And Bill Holman said, "They forced me to write a bass trombone part into the old charts. I didn't want to do it. Muddies the sound."

I never did like retrofitting parts into existing arrangements. If you create a "new" part (as opposed to borrowing odds and ends from existing parts), it messes with the way the chords are stacked.

[Finetales]

Very likely. And it seems like every college tenor is told to double on bass now, so a lot of them still have one when they graduate.

I don't think this is true. There is very little overlap between tenor trombone and bass trombone majors in my experience, and extremely few go in wanting to be freelancers where that double is pretty essential. Most college trombonists want to play in an orchestra, so they focus on their one instrument.

When I was at IU (40-60 trombone majors at any one time) no tenor player was told to double on bass and I don't know of any other school that has that policy. Anyone who plays both generally does voluntarily.

[Posaunus]

Very likely. And it seems like every college tenor is told to double on bass now, so a lot of them still have one when they graduate.

.
I don't think this is true. There is very little overlap between tenor trombone and bass trombone majors in my experience, and extremely few go in wanting to be freelancers where that double is pretty essential. Most college trombonists want to play in an orchestra, so they focus on their one instrument.

When I was at IU (40-60 trombone majors at any one time) no tenor player was told to double on bass and I don't know of any other school that has that policy. Anyone who plays both generally does voluntarily.

60 trombone majors - at just one college / university in the U.S.
All looking for that magic trombone chair in an orchestra that pays at least a modest wage.

How many music schools in the U.S. ?
How many trombone majors graduate each year?
How many orchestra positions open up yearly?
So ... What are the odds of success?
What valuable service are these music schools providing?
What happens to their graduates who don't land an orchestral seat? Perhaps they become music educators?
Without the valuable music education degree they could have had.
Or they could become ace freelancers, like Tiffany or Aidan?
Not much a bad outcome!
But overall it's largely a rigged system, with odds only a bit better than a lottery?
Or am I missing the point?

[Burgerbob]

This is a MUCH larger conversation about music ed, but there's a couple points I'd like to say:

1. Schools are there to make money. The more students, the better- even when this is antithetical to any one student's success in that degree

2. Not all students in ANY degree go on to do what they got the degree in, and that's fine

[Finetales]

60 trombone majors - at just one college / university in the U.S.
All looking for that magic trombone chair in an orchestra that pays at least a modest wage.

How many music schools in the U.S. ?
How many trombone majors graduate each year?
How many orchestra positions open up yearly?
So ... What are the odds of success?
What valuable service are these music schools providing?
What happens to their graduates who don't land an orchestral seat? Perhaps they become music educators?
Without the valuable music education degree they could have had.
Or they could become ace freelancers, like Tiffany or Aidan?
Not much a bad outcome!
But overall it's largely a rigged system, with odds only a bit better than a lottery?
Or am I missing the point?

You're preaching to the choir here. Pete Ellefson, one of the trombone professors at IU (and a TC member!), was always (and I assume still is) completely up front about that reality in masterclasses. A TINY percentage of brass players who want to play in a top orchestra actually will. And the IU professors certainly encouraged playing in the jazz bands and taking advantage of the other non-classical opportunities at the school. But that's a far cry from requiring tenor players to also learn bass, and I don't feel like that would be a good approach for most students.

At the end of the day, almost nobody goes to music school wanting to become a freelancer. Most want to either play in a big orchestra or be a jazz soloist. Fortunately for me, freelancing in LA is always what I wanted to do, so I made my studies work towards that goal.

[JohnL]

This is a MUCH larger conversation about music ed

Well, that took an unexpected turn...

Any mods want spin this off into another thread?

[TomInME]

Very likely. And it seems like every college tenor is told to double on bass now, so a lot of them still have one when they graduate.

I don't think this is true. There is very little overlap between tenor trombone and bass trombone majors in my experience, and extremely few go in wanting to be freelancers where that double is pretty essential. Most college trombonists want to play in an orchestra, so they focus on their one instrument.

When I was at IU (40-60 trombone majors at any one time) no tenor player was told to double on bass and I don't know of any other school that has that policy. Anyone who plays both generally does voluntarily.

Maybe I'm seeing the people who kept playing are more often the ones who doubled. (that's my sample). Or it could be more common in grad school or smaller places where players have more opportunities. At the "mills" I can see why it wouldn't be a thing.
For the record, I didn't say it was official policy or mandatory or anything, just one of those "you ought to" things that some people actually do.

[AtomicClock]

Well, it may be more relevant than you think. My question was originally about the hobbyist/amateur cohort. Which would include the portion of conservatory students who don't stay in the profession.

[TomInME]

This is a MUCH larger conversation about music ed, but there's a couple points I'd like to say:

1. Schools are there to make money. The more students, the better- even when this is antithetical to any one student's success in that degree

2. Not all students in ANY degree go on to do what they got the degree in, and that's fine

Universities, especially public ones, are not known for being high-profit industries. But your comment about numbers is valid, because the more students you have in your program, the more claim you have on the university's resources. But it's more about losing less money than about making more money.

2. A degree in music is still worth more than no degree, and plenty of people going to college major in the latter...

[Finetales]

Maybe I'm seeing the people who kept playing are more often the ones who doubled. (that's my sample). Or it could be more common in grad school or smaller places where players have more opportunities. At the "mills" I can see why it wouldn't be a thing.

I know quite a few classmates from my time at IU who were strictly orchestral tenor trombonists, but a while after graduation they picked up bass to get more work in their local scene. It seems to me that tenor players picking up bass is more common after their education is done - same with tuba players (although I did know one tuba major in undergrad who had previous bass trombone experience).

When you're out of school and scraping by playing with the local per-service orchestra and maybe teaching at a couple schools, I'd imagine that you get a lot more motivation to learn another instrument that will get you more work than you had while being extremely busy in undergrad taking classes, shedding excerpts, playing recitals, etc. See also: low brass players picking up bass guitar.

[DougHulme]

From a UK perspective it was a generally held view back in the 1970's that you should 'make it' (whatever that meant) on tenor trombone before converting to bass. At the end of the day there is only one bass (usually) but more than two (maybe even 6 in a Brass band) tenors. When I started playing Bass everyone was busy converting, as Bruce says, from G basses to Bb/F's. Boosey and Hawkes made a valiant attempt to keep the G alive with a larger bore G with a D valve but in the end the demise of the G was accomplished (with a few notable exceptions) but much has been written about that elsewhere.

I used to get many requests to play Bass all over the country because a bass player was unavailable and it was difficult to find a sub. This is not the same today (possibly something to do with the declining ability of me!!) however that simple fact brings me to the conclusion that without a doubt there are many many more bass trombonists in the UK today than there were in the 1970's through to the mid 90's.

[dbwhitaker]

I started college in 1975 at a regional public university in the midwest. The only instrument I played was a Bach 50 that I bought during high school years. I wasn't even the second best bass trombonist at that school. Being a bass trombonist was definitely a thing that some kids tried to do in the US in the 1970s.

[hyperbolica]

In high school in the early 1980s, I had a teacher who was a bass bone player, played some with the Vermont Symphony on a Bach 50. Our school had one 72h, which was my first encounter with a bass trombone. Nobody played it, and it wasn't in good repair.

I was at Ithaca College in the mid 1980s, and they had only two bass bone majors that I knew of, but they were ed majors (as were most musicians at Ithaca). There was a grad student and Paul Abel, who went on to be a brass technician.

When I went to New England Conservatory, the only bass bone player I knew there was Matt Guilford (National Symphony). I know he played tenor in high school, as we met at All Eastern band. I'm sure there were others, but I don't remember them.

There was always at least a side conversation that people who didn't find success as a tenor player might have been encouraged toward bass trombone, as there was a lack of bass players for a while. Brian Hecht said this was how he came to bass bone. Not that it's "easier", but skill on one doesn't guarantee skill on the other. I actually find bass bone much more difficult to be a high level player. It is true, though, that most of the difficult parts go to the higher seats.

There are certainly more people playing bass bone now. There are also more instrument brand options available. The instruments are also more standardized. I'm not 100% sure they are all "better" instruments. The 1960s and 70s were the days of the 62h, 72h, 73h, Duo Gravis, 7b, 8b, 50b, the various Olds and Reynolds options... And I'm not sure that standardization has really been the best thing for players. I wouldn't mind seeing more "diversity" (options) in designs.

[TomInME]

See also: low brass players picking up bass guitar.

THAT is the smarter double.

[Finetales]

For the record, when I was at IU out of those 40-60 trombonists (it was usually around 40; the 60 year was abnormal) I was one of only 2 or 3 bass trombone majors. We all got to work a lot! IU was not a bass trombone destination until Pollard was hired.

See also: low brass players picking up bass guitar.

THAT is the smarter double.

Yup. Play bass even decently and you get tons of work. It's no surprise that quite a few professional bassists used to be trombonists!

[Posaunus]

See also: low brass players picking up bass guitar.

THAT is the smarter double.

My teacher when I was a teenager was a fine professional trombonist, who also played string bass (upright; bass guitar was not so popular then) and got some work in jazz combos. He was about to start teaching me bass, but decided to return to university to get an accounting degree so he could support his family. No more lessons. He was a great guy, teacher, and trombonist. In any case, I took the hint, and went off to university to pursue a degree in mechanical engineering - provided a great career, but little time for music. I returned to tromboning after a multi-decade hiatus, and now enjoy playing as much as possible (including doubling on bass trombone, at an amateur level).

[Chronos91]

I'm not seeing bass as very prevalent in the hobbyist communities I'm in (Oklahoma). I play in a community jazz band and orchestra in OKC where I'm the only player that owns a bass. When I'm playing in a different horn section, I'll usually take my bass so 4th can actually be played on one. Stillwater has a pretty big community concert band with 10+ trombones not including me, and only one of them uses bass there.

[JohnL]

Most of the trombonists I know are either community players, some of whom get the occasional paying gig, or weekend warriors who play mostly paying gigs of the "gas money plus a little" variety. Lots of bass trombonists and even more tenor players who double. Some tuba players, too.

[sf105]

I head that when Ostrander proposed writing his bass trombone method, the publisher asked Conn how many bass trombones they'd made. I think it was 400.

[JeffBone44]

Who in the world is using bass trombone on the 1st part? I haven't seen that yet, fortunately.

[SteelDeRosa]

I credit Charlie Vernon. He made the bass trombone cool.

[whitbey]

i am 65 now. In the 1970's I played bass trombone and very few others did. I still have that Bach 50. I had a marginal 42B I sold so I could get the bass. Got a few small bores that did not work well for me. Ended up with a 36 that was just ok. So for a few years I played 1st on bass. Used a regular leadpipe on 1st and a larger one on bass. Changed MP too. The 50 played easier then the 36 in band. Was not long and I got the funds to buy another 547 horn. Much better then a poor mans tenor that looked like a bass.

So there were fewer basses out there in the 70's and yes, I played 1st on a bass for a little while.

When there were fewer basses, most of them were dependent horns Bb/F/E

[JWHartley]

I started playing bass in high school in '63. A King Symphony. There were 2 of us in a small town hs band. No other bass bones in college. I started playing in community bands 30 years ago. I have been the only bass (now a Conn or Shires) in either of the 2 community bands I have been playing with.
So, I would think that there are more bass players, but if I add up the current observations, it hasn't changed much?

-Jess

[LIBrassCo]

I would lean towards yes, or at least more players who double. There's also more players convinced they need a bucket of a mouthpiece because they saw someone else use one.

[imsevimse]

Yes so it seems. A lot of trombone players who I know and who have studied tenor trombone seriously pick up the bass trombone as a double, often after they graduate or in their final years of study. Not all are able to do it of lot of reasons. Some think it is an easy double and after they try discover differences to be a lot more work than expected so they put it in the case again. I did that at first, but later overcome the differences. As more try, more learn. In short there was a shortage of bass trombone players over here some thirty years ago but now there are a lot of doublers who can sub. Real pro bass trombone specialists on the contrary are still rare over here.

/Tom

[Cotboneman]

From my experience I would definitely answer yes. I attended high school in Chicago from 1971-75, playing in the bands all four years, and never once saw a bass trombone. In fact our high school did not even own one. My first memories of seeing/hearing a bass trombone was during my undergraduate years of study at DePaul University. The trombone studio only had a few players studying bass trombone as I can recall. So the instrument is definitely more common now as I recall from my memory.