TromboneChat

I like to think that I do articulations fairly well, but I definitely have issues and things I hope I can improve upon. One of those things is high-range double and triple tonguing. It just sucks. I feel like there is a fundamental fight in my mouth between directing the airstream properly in the high range and getting my tongue to move correctly for adjusting between the front and middle part of my tongue for multiple-tonguing. Things just kind of choke up, or the articulation is just mushy, with no real middle ground.

I'd appreciate any ideas.

By high range here, I mean anything above about here:



I can definitely play a lot higher than this . . . as long as I don't have to throw in a crisp triple-tongue.

I'm hesitant to offer advice because I'm no expert, I just know what I do. So with that caveat, here goes...

Just my own experience, but I've found that double-tonguing in the high range (which I do all the time -- part of my daily routine requires double-tonguing scales from the bottom of the horn up to high F (F5 I guess)) requires the "ka" articulation to be done with a more forward part of the tongue than at lower range.

Whereas on lower notes the "ka" is in the middle-back part of the tongue, the higher I go the more forward I have to move the "ka" syllable. It's also a much smaller motion because, at least for me, the tongue is already closer to the roof of my mouth at that range in order to get the air speed I need for high notes.

Triple-tonguing up there is the same principle, except the "ta-ta" is done with the tip of the tongue in quick, light flicks -- again, because the tongue is already near the roof of my mouth and the air speed is fast. Trying to do a hard articulation just interferes with the air stream too much and causes it to fail, so both double- and triple-tonguing need to be much lighter than at lower registers (and very relaxed).*

*I find that with triples it's much easier to doodle them than to triple-tongue them. You might try that, if you like.

Doubtless someone will come along and say I'm completely full of it. And if so, depending on who it is, listen to them if they're an expert. All I know is what works for me. But since I do it well and do it all the time, I thought I'd at least give you the benefit of how I get it from the inside of my mouth to the audience.

Ta or Ka is antithetical to being a small motion in the front of the mouth as is required for high range.

Ta-ka
Da-ga
Doo-dle

What do you call the articulation?

Tee-kee
Dee-gee

I can't Doodle in the usual way, but don't you reach a ceiling in the high range where it doesn't work well above a certain point?

Interesting thread! I also find tonguing in the upper (roughly upwards of high Bb) to be challenging. some reasons for myself: I never felt to generally have good feel for what my tongue is doing. It's also nothing you can really see or control from the outside. I tend to have difficulties making the tongue movement smaller.

What helps me is - as Doug has written above - to go more to an "ee" feel.

And for the doodle, even the lower notes benefit from moving the whole flop forward and small. There is a range of distinction to be had, too, from a nearly imperceptible legato to a hard bang bang. That one is acceptable for legit, just don't tell anyone. If it feels congested, try moving forward.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:11 am Tee-kee
Dee-gee

Ah. I get it now. It's the vowel you were objecting to. Yeah, I figured I made that point talking about the tongue being close to the roof of the mouth.

I can't Doodle in the usual way, but don't you reach a ceiling in the high range where it doesn't work well above a certain point?

Yup. I think I said somewhere else that I can doodle up to a high C and that's about it (though on Malaguena Extreme I triple doodle on a high Db, which for some weird reason is easier than a regular double doodle for me). I have no idea how anyone else does it, but at the top range of my doodle I have to use a harder doodle articulation with the articulations as far forward as possible, whereas if I were double-tonguing those same notes I'd have to back off the articulation and make it lighter. I dunno what I'm "supposed" to do. I just know what works for me.

And I don't doodle in the usual way, either. I have this weird way of mixing doodle-tonguing with a soft double-tongue. For instance, I have an easier time doodling up partials than down, so if I'm going down over partials I'll switch to a soft double-tongue, even in the middle of a phrase. I think that just comes from never having actually been taught proper doodling, but just learning it on the fly and figuring out survival techniques that eventually got ingrained. This is why I had that caveat at the beginning of my post about not necessarily listening to what I say.

I've found I have to tongue further back in the palate to get a clearer sound while multiple tonguing over Bb4. It also results in a much more legato style of tonguing similar to doodling though. If I keep it towards the teeth I get a lot of extraneous noise and apparent effort to the listener.

It's been a fight over many years to get a more detached and clear multiple tongue in that range at a real dynamic - haven't figured anything out other than to record in a big room with the mics a little further away while playing a little quieter. When I hear one of the younger classical soloists double tongue up there - I often notice that I can't really hear them live (especially with a piano) but that it ends up sounding clearer on recordings.

When it comes to Lindberg's multiple tonguing, which in the Motorbike is about as clear and powerful as I've ever heard that technique in a classical concerto, my feeling is that his choice of equipment, between the CL mouthpiece and the Sterling bells with extra weight, give a combination of a light enough mouthpiece and a heavy enough horn to balance out some of the above issues. Also to be fair this is all guesswork after experimenting with his system though.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 11:35 am I've found I have to tongue further back in the palate to get a clearer sound while multiple tonguing over Bb4. It also results in a much more legato style of tonguing similar to doodling though. If I keep it towards the teeth I get a lot of extraneous noise and apparent effort to the listener.

It's been a fight over many years to get a more detached and clear multiple tongue in that range at a real dynamic - haven't figured anything out other than to record in a big room with the mics a little further away while playing a little quieter. When I hear one of the younger classical soloists double tongue up there - I often notice that I can't really hear them live (especially with a piano) but that it ends up sounding clearer on recordings.

When it comes to Lindberg's multiple tonguing, which in the Motorbike is about as clear and powerful as I've ever heard that technique in a classical concerto, my feeling is that his choice of equipment, between the CL mouthpiece and the Sterling bells with extra weight, give a combination of a light enough mouthpiece and a heavy enough horn to balance out some of the above issues. Also to be fair this is all guesswork after experimenting with his system though.

It could potentially be a disadvantage of using a deep cup on tenor. Lindberg's 4CL is the opposite of most orchestral tenor mouthpieces -- very shallow cup, shallow angle from the rim to the cup, with a very large throat. You can throw so much air on that thing, but at the same time the deflection from the cup is *right* there. The 4 and 5 both articulate like crazy, but where you would need finesse on the 5CL, you can throw air and articulate as hard as you want on the 4CL with reckless abandon. Add in, like you said, the heavy sterling bell and resistance balancer and you wind up with a horn that will both take everything you throw at it, and cover up the compromises you need to make to play something like Motorbike.

True - I like the CL4 for louder dynamic and articulation, but I find I just cannot get a non-airy tone at quieter dynamics. When I really need some pop in double tonguing higher I have an old school Laskey 57MD that really gets the job done with less compromise on my own particular set-up.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 4:54 am If it feels congested, try moving forward.

When I do this, it feels more congested, if anything. Or, I end up transitioning into some kind of tongue position that gets to a flutter tongue, which is completely different.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:32 am ...

And I don't doodle in the usual way, either. I have this weird way of mixing doodle-tonguing with a soft double-tongue. For instance, I have an easier time doodling up partials than down, so if I'm going down over partials I'll switch to a soft double-tongue, even in the middle of a phrase. I think that just comes from never having actually been taught proper doodling, but just learning it on the fly and figuring out survival techniques that eventually got ingrained. This is why I had that caveat at the beginning of my post about not necessarily listening to what I say.

(Emphasis added.)

That's funny. The ease of going down was the whole reason McChesney came up with his weird unbalanced method. For myself, there is a bit of attention that needs to be paid to going up on dul, usually needing a bit more volume collapse to make it work on something like a trill. However, going through three partials or more this problem disappears. What the?

"proper doodling" is truly funny. It seems to be at an extreme of idiomatic. I imagine, if we could people back the layers of flesh hiding what everyone is doing, and truly measure things, we would find a wide variety of actual technique that people nevertheless use the same words to describe. That's why "play banana" can be so helpful, like a false premise, make of it what you will.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2024 6:11 am The ease of going down was the whole reason McChesney came up with his weird unbalanced method.

Can you explain this? I don't really know much about his method.

personally I end up moving the tongue further back on the roof of the mouth to do a Dah gah syllable in the high range.

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2024 12:43 pm

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2024 6:11 am The ease of going down was the whole reason McChesney came up with his weird unbalanced method.

Can you explain this? I don't really know much about his method.

personally I end up moving the tongue further back on the roof of the mouth to do a Dah gah syllable in the high range.

Sure. It's all in Bob's book. I don't understand, either.