Small bore recommendations and mpc

[VJOFan]

What would you recommend as an off the shelf small bore (jazz) horn for a player like this (yes, it’s me)?

• tendency to sound bright (for example, imagine ripping steel for forte on an 88H, but a Bach 42 keeps things mellow

• Tendency to play on the flat side, as in two horns cut down to play sharper and a special, shorter, tuning slide on a custom horn. (Didn’t have as much trouble with a 508 horn, mostly on 547 or larger)

And is a Shilke 51c4 just a bad choice (all players being different and all, but what’s an average choice) for big band lead or second playing?

[BGuttman]

The tendency to play flat means you need a shallower mouthpiece than the 51C4. Maybe something like a Doug Elliott LT 101/C/C2 (Doug's C cup is shallower than a Bach C cup). I suggest the 101 rim since it's the same size as the Shilke 51 series. If you like smaller cups you could go to a Bach 11C or so.

Look for something with a gold, rose, or red brass bell. Maybe on the heavy side.

I know they aren't made any more, but a Holton 67 (Stratodyne) or Conn 12H might do well. I also have a soft spot for the Olds Recording, but they sometimes won't blend in a section.

[MrHCinDE]

I’d add a Benge 170 Freelance to the list and second the Holton 67 stratodyne.

If you have the $$$, perhaps a 3b silversonic? I’ve gotta admit I preferred the yellow brass one but there are plenty of silversonic fans out there.

[VJOFan]

The tendency to play flat means you need a shallower mouthpiece than the 51C4. Maybe something like a Doug Elliott LT 101/C/C2 (Doug's C cup is shallower than a Bach C cup). I suggest the 101 rim since it's the same size as the Shilke 51 series. If you like smaller cups you could go to a Bach 11C or so. …

Interesting. I started having to adjust horns in university when I moved to a large shank Shilke 51 from a Bach 6.5 AL. May have been that all along, but everyone had to play a Shilke 51 at my school… Those were the days!

[Posaunus]

The Schilke 51C4 mouthpiece was was (allegedly) designed with the cooperation of Byron Peebles (L A Philharmonic principal trombone) for symphony orchestra work. I agree with Bruce that its cup is probably too large (deep) for big band lead (or even 2nd).

If you go Doug Elliott, you might also consider his D cup (a bit larger than C) since you tend to play on the bright side.

As far as small-bore jazz trombones, each of us probably has his own favorite, but all can be used successfully.
King 2B, King 3B, Conn 6H, Getzen 3508, Getzen 1050, Bach 16, Yamaha 891Z, Yamaha 897Z, Jupiter XO 1634, Olds Recording, Greenhoe, Shires, ...
You'll have to try various instruments to find what you are comfortable with, and then start enjoying playing it!

[tbdana]

I'm sure I'll get pushback on this, but I don't think you can beat the good ol' Bach LT16MG, with the gold brass bell, for jazz work. The .509 bore horn has a naturally warm sound, made even warmer by the gold brass bell. And it's a horn that makes range and flexibility a little easier than most, so great for jazz playing.

[OneTon]

Alastair Kay was a co-conspirator in the Yamaha 697Z and 897Z. The 697Z was very close to King 2B. He recommended Bach 11C, Bach 7C, Schilke 47, and his own signature mouthpiece. Some people like Bach 12C mouthpieces. Marcinkiewicz has a selection of copies of famous player mouthpieces. Faxx 7C is a cheaper high quality copy of the Mount Vernon 7C. Doug Elliott can help you with your intonation issues.

Steve Ferguson at HORNGUYS in LA has the Bart van Lier Kuhnl & Hoyer trombones. They’re high quality at a reasonable price. Doug Bert has the 0.500 inch bore Greenhoe built by Schilke at Brass Exchange in St Louis. Conn Selmer still offers a range of King 2B and 3B trombones with copious variations, and the venerable Bach 12. Yamaha offers YSL 897Z and YSL 891Z. To name a few.

[VJOFan]

I’ve found a couple decent deals on a Shires TBQ33 and a Yamaha 891z. I had a Yamaha 691 that I loved back in the late 1980’s but have never even test drove a Shires. Anyone played the 891 and the Q33?

[Doug Elliott]

The tendency to play flat could mean several things, some are equipment choices both mouthpiece and horn and matching them, some are mechanics, and some are just taste and hearing.

A 51C4 is not necessarily a bad choice for something like a .525 bore horn, but probably a bad match to a smaller bore.

There are lots of decent small bore horns and you can't go wrong with a used 2B, 3B, Olds, or Yamaha, or lots of newer horns.

[hyperbolica]

The only Shires I'd recommend would be the Michael Davis Plus, which is 509 or the Marshall Gilkes which is 509/525. If you're already bright, probably stay away from the Kings. Maybe a Conn 32h would be up your alley.

[Doug Elliott]

Unless there's one I don't know about, the Marshall Gilkes is straight .500

Brightness can be counteracted with mouthpiece and mechanics.

[Matt K]

I think you're thinking of the BAC Elliott Mason horn, which is (typically) 500/525.

Agree with Doug. I am a super, super, super, super bright player but find with the right rim size + reasonable cup depth for the horn I'm on... I can tame it and sound good on anything down to a 2B

[modelerdc]

If you tend to be bright but are happy on a Bach42 then you should try a Bach 16. If you don’t like switching rims get e screw rim set up from Doug Elliott. He can advise you but my guess is that a g+8 and a d3 with rim close to what you have now would be ball park

[CalgaryTbone]

I've been very happy with a Doug Elliott "d" cup paired with a rim that matches what I use on a large bore horn. For me that's a 102 rim in the XT series. It makes my .508 bore Edwards "sing", and is a comfortable transition.

Jim Scott

[Rusty]

I’ve found a couple decent deals on a Shires TBQ33 and a Yamaha 891z. I had a Yamaha 691 that I loved back in the late 1980’s but have never even test drove a Shires. Anyone played the 891 and the Q33?

I play a Shires MD+ which is a great .508 horn. I wasn’t impressed with the Q33, but the 891z is a really well designed horn for a good price.

[harrisonreed]

King 3B SS, DE C+/D3

[hyperbolica]

Unless there's one I don't know about, the Marshall Gilkes is straight .500

Yeah you're right, looks like I got that model mixed up with something else in my head. Probably a Yamaha.

[hyperbolica]

Unless there's one I don't know about, the Marshall Gilkes is straight .500

Yeah you're right, looks like I got that model mixed up with something else in my head. Probably a Yamaha.

edit: Ah, yes, the Nils Landgren...https://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_event ... mbone.html

[Pezza]

I like my Bach 12, with a wedge 100AL mouthpiece.

[Posaunus]

I think you're thinking of the BAC Elliott Mason horn, which is (typically) 500/525.

Per B.A.C., the Elliot Mason Signature Trombone comes with an 8" gold brass bell flare and a gold brass bell stem, a 0.508" bore, removable lead pipe, and gold brass slide with a copper handgrip and end-crook.

[Posaunus]

... the Nils Landgren...https://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_event ... mbone.html

Nils, a fine jazz player, has apparently chosen a dual bore 0.500"/0.525" bore as his "signature" trombone. This seems like an unusual, but interesting, choice. I'm sure it works for Nils's style but I'm trying to guess where I would use such a trombone, and whether it would be better than other small- or medium- (or dual-) bore trombones. Have any of you played such an instrument (from Yamaha, B.A.C., or elsewhere)? Benefits? Disadvantages? Or just another trombone?

[harrisonreed]

I think you're thinking of the BAC Elliott Mason horn, which is (typically) 500/525.

Per B.A.C., the Elliot Mason Signature Trombone comes with an 8" gold brass bell flare and a gold brass bell stem, a 0.508" bore, removable lead pipe, and gold brass slide with a copper handgrip and end-crook.

The one I tried, the prototype one if his students bought from him, was dual bore, 508/525. It rocked.

[VJOFan]

The B.A.C. looks amazing. The dual bore probably works well. I had a 547/56? Tenor bass dual bore. If I used one mouthpiece it sounded like a symphonic tenor, but with another it sounded like a passable bass trombone.

The Mason model is a little more than the retro pay I’m expecting though…

[harrisonreed]

The prototype was dope. I didn't like the very wire-thin slide grip on the outer slide, more precise I guess, but not fun to hold through fast passages.

Removable leadpipes, harmonic counterweight before that was really a thing, different flares....

It feels a bit like a large bore but sounds like a small bore. And the slotting was crazy easy.

I'm telling you, the 3BF-SS will darken your bright sound a lot. Try one if you can.

[Aznguyy]

... the Nils Landgren...https://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_event ... mbone.html

Nils, a fine jazz player, has apparently chosen a dual bore 0.500"/0.525" bore as his "signature" trombone. This seems like an unusual, but interesting, choice. I'm sure it works for Nils's style but I'm trying to guess where I would use such a trombone, and whether it would be better than other small- or medium- (or dual-) bore trombones. Have any of you played such an instrument (from Yamaha, B.A.C., or elsewhere)? Benefits? Disadvantages? Or just another trombone?

Luke Malewicz has the slide. Maybe he can chime in.

[Oslide]

- snippet -
Nils, a fine jazz player, has apparently chosen a dual bore 0.500"/0.525" bore as his "signature" trombone. (......)
Have any of you played such an instrument (from Yamaha, B.A.C., or elsewhere)? Benefits? Disadvantages? Or just another trombone?

The specs seem quite similar to the 32H which has an amazing upper register.

[Matt K]

I played a YSL356 (same bore size) for several years. Prior to that, a Shires 508/525 for a similar amount of time. Now have a King frankenhorn 500/525. It is a supremely underrated bore. Gives easy access to anything smaller would give you but has a nice, open feel to it.

The first horns I mentioned are a “large bore” bell section, meaning that there’s little or no difference between the design of the bell section compared to a large bore horn (YSL356 has a .547 rotor but everything else is compatible with other 3xx,5xx, and 6xx large bores). Shires medium and large bore bell section parts are all interchangeable.

This King is the first that I’ve had that’s a “small bore” bell section… it’s a 607F with a Getzen 3508Y bell, so every component is smaller than the others I’ve played. The other larger horns I had were great, but just missing a little something… this frankenhorn is everything I wanted for the last 10 years, which all started when I picked up that 0825GLW Shires slide from Dillon.

[VJOFan]

I went with the Yamaha, almost because it is less zippy than some other horns. I get plenty of sizzle without any help. There were a couple Kings on the wall (2B and 3B legend series) and they were extremely fun to play, but when I’ve played those kinds of horns in a section my good friends quietly ask me not to bring them again- it’s just too much.

Here it is with a couple short excerpts to show how it sounds. Still need to work on a mouthpiece. This is a Shilke 51c4 on a YSL 891Z (long “New York” lead pipe) And yeah, I get a little bend happy…

https://youtu.be/ji5fKHbi8KM?si=iyzQdKIN7hJ4GEPj

[Trombarnett]

you could try a monette mouthpiece. Dave monette's whole concept is that the mouthpiece will resonate at a true pitch on its own, which is why it requires you to make slight adjustments your embouchure. I personally have found that AR resonance mouthpieces achieve the same thing, and these mouthpieces can be extremely free-blowing.